Could EP3 ruin the whole Saga?

Absolutely not. This will be the Star Wars Equivalent of The Matrix Reloaded where we had no idea what was going to happen but it was going to be good no matter what, even though we already know what happens. For the record, the Matrix Reloaded ended in a relatively hopeless way.

 

I don't think it will ruin anything. I do worry about the "darkness" factor though, not for myself but for my son.

If the main point of TPM was to introduce Ani as a likable character so that the events of Eps II and III are more dramatic, then it surely worked with my five year old.

He loves Anakin, and though he intellectually understands what happends over the course of the saga, I don't know if he emotionally grasps what is coming in Ep III. He was confused and scared enough when Anakin started playing baseball with Sandpeople heads in AOTC, I wonder how he will react when its time for The Duel.

And that is my one (though very slight) concern about the film. Will it still be a film that the whole family will enjoy to together (as all the other films have been) or will it go too far alienate the younger folk.

As others have said though, I hope he doesn't counter this obvious concern with some Ewok type silliness. I hope to see the droids in their fun OT type roles and some good action-for-actions-sake sequences, but I don't want it to resort to anything too stupid.

 

yes it does have the potential too.

 

I think some of the poor sods who've posted in this thread are doomed. You'd think people would learn their lesson after TPM. If you get your hopes up, you'll be disapointed. Even people who (obviously) don't like TPM still keep insanely high expectations for Episode III. I doubt it will be, um, "Ewokized", but I do think that if you write your own little bible full of rules on what Episode III has to adhere to in order to be a good movie, you're going to be disapointed to some extent. Just let the man do his thing. He's only trying to tell a story you know....

 

I will admit that I have fear with this movie. Ep.III has been the one I have been looking forward to since they announced the PT way back when.

I want this movie to be dark like ESB, and I really want the badguys to win hands down no questions asked.

But what I really want is the transformation of Anakin to Vader to live up to our expectations. I mean this is what we have been waiting to see.

 

The TPM analogy is a good one, and one I worry about. My expectations for Episode I were so high that there was no way they could be met. Conversely, my expectations for AOTC were lower because I was disappointed by TPM. Now, my expectations are sky high again because AOTC exceeded my lowered expectations. So I fear that my unrealistic expectations for the fall of Anakin Skywalker and the destruction of the Jedi Order may not be met, and I might be left with a bad taste in my mouth as a result.

 

Well, from everything I've read and heard about so far, it sounds like Episode III will be very exciting indeed.

One major thing I'm still worried about is the fact that Episode III ties TPM, AOTC, and the entire OT together - so in a way, the fate of 5 movies rests on Episode III's shoulders.

If Lucas' explanations for certain themes or questions are nonsensical or lousy, it would certainly be highly annoying and hard to ignore.

 

Most definitely. If, for example, the Jedi Ghost situation had a silly or unbelievable explanation, it could render ghost Obi-Wan kind of silly in the OT.

 

I think some of the poor sods who've posted in this thread are doomed. You'd think people would learn their lesson after TPM

So for those of us 'poor sods' that enjoyed TPM, we're likely to enjoy Ep3 as well?

"Yipeee!"

 

I've been waiting for Episode III for 20 years. No way it's going to ruin the saga for me!

 

I agree that much of the impact will turn on how Lucas explains various ties between the PT and the OT. We all know much of the general chronology that needs to occur but there are many ways for it to do so and some could be pretty implausible/goofy.

And speaking as someone who liked AOTC better than TPM (or, more specifically, simply disliked TPM) it's all relative. EIII would have to work pretty hard to come in under TPM, in my opinion.

 

Well, yes and no - TPM had the unfortunate problem of being the most anticipated movie of all time - and there's no way it could live up to expectations. Also, it was really the introductory piece, so it would move more slowly.

I have problems with it, but it's still SW to me. But I don't want to get off-topic.

The potential for doom is higher for Episode III, but it doesn't look like Lucas is doing anything but kicking butt so far.

It's the one we've all been waiting for, since the conversation between Ben and Luke. "You fought in the Clone Wars?"

But since it's the one that we've all been waiting for, and ties in both the PT and the OT, the potential for doom is higher.

Certain things are important to me, like just HOW Anakin turns to the Dark Side - I would love for him to have a chance to kill Palpatine, to fulfill his destiny before all the pain and misery occurred until the Throne Room in ROTJ.

I have no doubt that the action will be probably the greatest thing I've ever seen in a movie, but it's the decisions and themes and answers that leave me uncertain right now.

 

I think III will be good...but where I think we REALLY got cheated is the Clone Wars. The major portions of this galactic conflict have been handled in cartoons and comic books. While I have enjoyed the ones I have read and seen, the Clone Wars deserved to have serious big screen attention paid to them. As it is, we'll get about 15 minutes at the end of AOTC and probably the same at the beginning of III.

I would have preferred that the story of Anakin developed against the backdrop of the Clone Wars, much like the story of Luke developed against the backdrop of the Rebellion. Instead, the Clone Wars are just a small backstory that gets very little attention in the films.

 

Nah Karate_Kid, if anything I think that Ep.III will only make the saga that much better! I mean after Ep.II came out, I never looked at the other films in the same light as before. I mean, I actually began to feel sorry for Darth Vader...

 

Thinking reasonably, it could in theory render the PT as a write-off at worst (some would say that has already happened) and at best could certainly give Lucas back some credibility, although I doubt it could save TPM and AOTC regardless of its quality (to some people anyway the film could be brilliant and they would still look for reasons to attack it).

Starting off, though, it has some advantages over its predecessors. Lucas has a lot of ground to cover, which could, if handled well make for a fairly tight and intense story without unnecessary slowish parts or huge character driven parts that have a greater potential to not work than action or exposition. Also, we already know some pretty cool stuff is happening which gives EpIII an advantage. Finally, I thought the ending of AotC was handled very well which raised my expectations of the PT somewhat.

Despite that, there is potential for damage to be done, especially if the dialogue and editing are handled poorly or if there is some sort of attempt to lighten the situation that could go horribly wrong.

 

IMO, while the PT has had som issues, GL seems to come through in the clutch.e

While some aspects of the PT were arguably botched (the love story, the introduction of OT characters like the droids or Owen, exposition of the Force/Jedi Training) the things that really matter to the story have all been handled well IMHO.

What I think of as "Classic SW Moments" in the PT have all been action sequences or in relation to the core story; the duels, Anakin's "I HATE them" speech, watching the Clones board the startships as the Imperial March plays.

If the meat of Ep III is Anakin's fall and Palpatine's manipulation to gain full controll of the GFFA then I have little worries about the quality of the film, since these are the things I feel have been handled well so far.

I want whtever happens between Anakin adn Padme to be believeable, this is the one thing I really worry could lower the quality of the film. The first two films didn't convince me that they are in love, but rather two young people infatuated with each other, having a desperate romance in uncertain times; I want to see EP III play off of this emotional powderkeg rather than making it as if they have some beautiful love that is destroyed by tragedy.

 

The really great thing is that Episode III is likely the bit of the story that Lucas himself has been looking the most forward to. There has been comments from people like Hayden that everybody took this film so much more seriously than the last one, that the vibe on set was much more intense, because this really is the one you want to get right. I think Lucas feels it too. This is the really important part. And if you remember, McCallum cracked the whip on Lucas with the writing of this one, complaining about the late completion of the AOTC script and insisting that this one should have to be taken really seriously.

Another point someone brought up here is that dark is actually Lucas' strength. Imo, the dark parts of AOTC were really where the brilliant Lucas started to come through. Stuff like the Tusken Camp, the Confession, Shmi's funeral, the Kamino sequence, and Dooku's plotline. These parts are very well handled, I think. In a way that only Lucas seems to be doing anymore, without the Jackson-style slo-mo and wide teary eyes accompanied by nearly ridiculously sweeping scores...

In October 1999 Lucas commented that TPM was intentionally light and upbeat, in order to contrast as much as possible with the tragic outcome of Episode III. He refered to AOTC as a love story that he thought parts of the audience might have a problem with. He anticipated Episode III to be commercially modest because of its dark themes and situations, but said he didn't have any choice in the matter. "I have to tell the story", he said. "It's very, very, very dark. It's a tragedy. It's not happy by any stretch of the imagination".

So there.

 

And I believe Anthony Daniels has said that Ep. III is a more "adult" movie, and is moving, shocking, sad, hopeful, chilling, et cetera.

Lucas has also called Ep. III "the payoff".

And judging from other LFL employee comments, we will have no problems with the script.

 

My biggest fear is the dialogue and acting. I'll bet that the action will be fantastic, and the overall story dark and fascinating. I just hope Lucas has written some better dialogue than the other PT films (for example, the love scenes) and that the actors (especially Natalie and Hayden) deliver with some oomph.

I definitely agree with the post above that Lucas does dark better than anything else.

Another thing that is important - the music. Some of the PT music has been uneven and generic, I hope we get some really somber and depressing dirges to celebrate the fall of the Republic.

 

I agree. Although I mostly loved Williams' scores for I and II there are some bits that are not too satisfying. Mostly though, this is not Williams' fault. The worst bit of II soundwise is the droid factory and the arena battle, and that's because Lucas didn't have a score at all for the last-minute completion of the droid factory, and decided to edit TPM music into the arena sequence. So I guess I'm hoping John Williams will have the chance to give us a 100% thought-out score this time. We know he can.

 

I had to laugh when I saw this thread b/c I started a similar thread in the Ep III SA forum a while ago titled "Ep III will likely be a disappointment" to try and generate some intelligent conversation about the movie. It quickly boiled down to people ripping on each other. I haven't read this whole thread, but it doesn't seem like Karate Kid has been attacked like I was. If interested, feel free to look at my thread. I'd put a hyperlink if I knew how...

Anyway, I think it's possible Ep III could ruin the saga. I think this movie bears a lot of expectations - I would say more than TPM even - and has a lot to tie together b/w the PT and OT. Lucas could have painted himself into a corner, we'll have to see if he can get himself out.

It seems to me that if he had been working on the story for the PT back in '94 (don't remember where I heard that), you'd think the continuity from the PT to OT would be a lot better than it is so far. Of course Ep III could go a long way toward bridging the gap, but based on TPM and AOTC, I don't know if Lucas is capable of doing so.

Having said that, I think Ep III will make the MOST money of all the SW films, as it is the last one ever. It has the pivotal moment that was hinted at since ANH way back in '77 - Anakin's fall and turn to the dark side. I would like to think no amount of Jar-Jar's "deesa gonna be bombad" or Threepio's inane AOTC-style scenes can ruin it, but I'm not sure.

If there's one thing my old thread taught me is that I'm going to reserve any serious judgment on Ep III until the credits roll. I already know what I think about the movies so far, no one can change my opinion, but I expect a lot out of Ep III and can't wait to see if it delivers.

EDIT: I didn't realize I had posted in this thread a few months ago, I'm really not trying to advertise for my Ep III SA thread...or am I??

 

Okay, it's a potential box of worms, but what exactly are the continuity problems with I and II? Imo, there is very few if any at all. But the problem could potentially lie with fans expecting Lucas to dwell on or explain things that are truly extraneous to the story. Not expectations being too high, but having a focus that doesn't match the story's focus and intent. I could use the word nit-picking, but it might make some folks mad.

Personally, I don't think it is possible for III to outsell all of the others on the basis of it actually having the turn of Anakin in it. This will surely attract people like us, but we have already decided to go and see it. If it's going to break any records it will have to attract others, and Joe Moviegoer is not as likely to be in on the loop about Anakin/Vader and why it's a must-see. TPM did amazing business for 2 main reasons: It was the first Star Wars in 16 years, and thus everyone who dug Star Wars had to see it and everybody else wanted to see what the fuzz was all about. And secondly it did very good repeat business, which means that those who liked it saw it several times. Probably even a good few people who didn't like it did the same. Episode III doesn't have much of a shot at the first, but it's probably likely to do great repeat business, because like it or not - a lot of people are going to think it's a brilliant movie.

I'm thrilled to see that so many people in here are positive about the PT and looking forward to III, because the post-TPM negativity on these boards was a great big turn-off for me. Star Wars is fun, and Episode III will be the most exciting of them all.

 

Kiri, before I get to what I consider to be continuity problems, I wanted to comment on your other points.

I think Ep III will do the most business precisely because TPM and AOTC did. Combine the fans who went to see TPM and AOTC dozens of times (hence they will see Ep III as many) with the people who were put off of the PT from one of those two movies, not to mention the people who remember the OT and will go see Ep III because it has Anakin's transformation to Vader and I think Lucas has a big hit on his hands. We all know why sequels tend to make more $$ than the originals - even if they aren't as good. It's because people are interested in seeing what happens to the characters they already know and love (to a degree). I have no numbers to back me up, but I would guess at least 75% of sequels make more money than the originals. I'd appreciate it if someone could get some numbers to back me up or prove me wrong...

As far as the continuity, I think the problems aren't from TPM to AOTC, they're in linking the PT to the OT. I won't remember them all and I admit some of them are superfluous to the story, but here's what I could think of: Anakin/Vader's age (he looks like he could be Obi-Wan's brother in ROTJ), the entire universe looking so different b/w the trilogies, Leia actually remembers her real mother, the Death Star showing up in AOTC (ie the first one took 30+ years to build, but the second one only took a few years??), and Anakin/Vader knowing about his offspring (if he's truly evil, shouldn't he have offed Luke when he was a kid?). Sorry for the long post, but that's all I could think of right now.

Not to mention in the PT the Jedi/Sith look like superhumans, but in the OT they're a bunch of old men who don't know how to swordfight. Feel free to prove me wrong - I'll admit if I am. I just think Ep III has the huge burden of connecting the two trilogies, and I'm not sure it can do it convincingly in 2 hrs 10 minutes.

 

USTommie: As far as the continuity, I think the problems aren't from TPM to AOTC, they're in linking the PT to the OT. I won't remember them all and I admit some of them are superfluous to the story, but here's what I could think of: Anakin/Vader's age (he looks like he could be Obi-Wan's brother in ROTJ), the entire universe looking so different b/w the trilogies, Leia actually remembers her real mother, the Death Star showing up in AOTC (ie the first one took 30+ years to build, but the second one only took a few years??), and Anakin/Vader knowing about his offspring (if he's truly evil, shouldn't he have offed Luke when he was a kid?). Sorry for the long post, but that's all I could think of right now.

Not to mention in the PT the Jedi/Sith look like superhumans, but in the OT they're a bunch of old men who don't know how to swordfight. Feel free to prove me wrong - I'll admit if I am. I just think Ep III has the huge burden of connecting the two trilogies, and I'm not sure it can do it convincingly in 2 hrs 10 minutes.

Allow me to retort.

- How old is Vader supposed to be? I have never seen anybody complain about Anakin/Vader's age in the films.

If he's about 20 or so in Episode III, wouldn't that make him about 45 in ROTJ?

- Of course the PT and the OT are going to look different - and Episode III supposedly starts to bridge the gap between AOTC and ANH, in terms of vehicles, in terms of styles, et cetera. There's also the fact that the Republic was supposed to be this "Golden Age" theme where everything is bright and shiny, and the OT is very "gritty" b/c the Empire has outlawed fun.

Also, I'm glad the PT looks different from the OT, b/c we wouldn't have the same amazing sets/locales and stunts that we have had in TPM and AOTC.

- Leia actually remembering her mother - this might be a problem, but we don't actually know for sure if Padme dies. Some people on this board argue that she pretty much HAS to for dramatic purposes and likely to help Anakin turn to the DS, but I don't necessarily think that's true.

If Episode III blatantly contradicts Leia's line in ROTJ, I'm sure people will come up with other explanations - like Lucas hadn't thought of doing the PT at this time.

- In terms of the Death Star, you're making an assumption without having seen Episode III - we don't know that they start construction of the DS I right away - maybe Palps wants to wait until he has tightened his grip on the galaxy. I don't think it's a coincidence that Palps has just disbanded the Imperial Senate at the start of ANH right when the Death Star is fully operational.

We don't even know if the Death Star is going to factor into Episode III at all - it might have been in AOTC just as a "hey, Palps thinks REALLY long-term!" idea.

- In terms of Anakin knowing about the twins, that's another thing we can't answer without having seen the movie. He'll know Padme is pregnant, but maybe he thinks she dies before she gives birth. Maybe she dies and Obi-Wan et al save the twins, but Anakin thinks the twins die as well.

If Anakin knew he had a son and then believed the son had been killed long ago, it would explain his obsessive behaviour in ESB and ROTJ after he finds out Luke Skywalker is his son.

- There's other contradictory material - mostly disregarding what Zahn wrote about the Clone Wars, simply b/c we didn't have much info about it.

 

Uh-oh, now I'm being ganged up on! It's happening again!!!

Maul, allow me to respond to your retort. As far as Anakin's age, my (and I know other people's) problem with it stems from the fact in ROTJ Anakin looks to be the same age as Obi-Wan. After Luke de-helmets him, he looks like he's really, really old - but that can be attributed to the life behind the mask. When he appears as a Force ghost, the only thing that makes him look younger than Obi-Wan is that his hair is brown rather than Ben's white. I defy anyone to tell me that Shaw looked like a 45 year old. I have heard they are replacing Shaw w/Hayden in the DVD release, but as of right now I see that as a big continuity problem.

I think you misunderstood me on the differences in appearances b/w the trilogies. I can accept the "Golden Age" argument for the PT looking cleaner and such, but it seems like the entire galaxy has de-evolved (technologically speaking) from the PT to the OT. I guess you can argue that technology took a step back after the Roman Empire fell, but I still think this needs a plausible explanation - which I think is tough to conjur up. And I also am happy with the way the PT has looked - I have no complaints about the locations, sets, appearances, et. al.

We don't know for sure if Padme dies, but I would say it would be a major mistake on Lucas' part if she doesn't. I cannot see Anakin turn if he still has her. In my opinion, there is NO WAY Anakin can fully embrace the dark side if Padme's still alive and kicking (or under-acting, as the case may be). I can see him start his descent when she's alive, but I think she has to die for the final step in his transformation. If Ep III does blatantly contradict Leia's line, it will just further my belief that Lucas should have spent more time hammering out the plot.

As far as the Death Star, I am making an assumption. I think all of my points are assumptions, as are pretty much everyone else's post in this forum. I don't know if the Death Star is in Ep III, but I think if it is, then it's a major continuity problem. Again, why would the first Death Star take 30+ years to be built, and yet the second one less than five?? I don't believe for one minute that they were constructing two Death Stars at the same time. That makes no sense whatsoever. If it doesn't show up, then leave it to the EU for all I care.

Being an uncle, I have a degree of familiarity w/the bond between a parent and their children. I can't see how Anakin would assume his child(ren) died with Padme. I think he'd want to make damn sure that was the case. Thinking about his strong connection to Luke in ROTJ (scene w/Emperor saying Luke is on Endor), how could he not feel his unborn children's Force imprint? I don't want to get into an argument about that, but I think it is yet another issue that Lucas will have to think long and hard about solving.

As far as the other contradictory material, I have to admit I stopped reading the EU a number of years ago b/c it got too complicated to follow. For sake of my argument, I don't think EU is any more of hard evidence than my opinion - other than the author got his/her idea on paper and a lot of people have read it.

I like to talk, can you tell??