PT Could the Jedi REALLY have expelled Anakin?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Dmasterman, Jan 1, 2012.

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  1. Dmasterman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2008
    star 1
    In Ep 2 Obiwan mentions to Anakin "You will be expelled from the order" for wanting to go back to Padme and lose pursuit of Dooku

    Anakin also was married and had both a lover and a child. Something that is can get you kicked out by the Jedi order.

    But Anakin couldn't really be banished or expelled because he was the chosen one after all, the one that would bring balance to the force.

    So had the Jedi actually found out about this relationship could they still have expelled him? Or maybe they'd let it slide because he is the chosen one.


    Because if they were to have found out about it and not expel him, the whole fear of padme dying probably could've been saved and Palpatine probably wouldn't have made his genocide successful.
  2. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Yes, they could have expelled him. It seems that Yoda mentioned in one of the novelizations that the Chosen One did not necessarily have to be a Jedi.

    Whether they would have or not, is anyone's guess. On Geonosis, I think Obi-Wan was referring not to the relationship with Padme in and of itself, but to the fact that Anakin was willing to endanger the entire mission of capturing Dooku as well as the lives of so many Jedi and the Republic itself, in order to save one person. Putting the life of one person above the life of so many others is a tremendous violation of the Code, and it would not matter who that one person was.
  3. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9


    That was actually Obi-Wan in the ROTS novel.


    Anyway, I doubt it. There were more than a few prequel-era Jedi who were openly married for pretty iffy reasons, like Ki-Adi Mundi. His official reason was that his species' birth rate was very low, so he got married no less than five times and had seven kids. Seven kids is seven kids, but it demonstrates that the marriage policy could be bent or outright broken if you still conduct yourself as a Jedi. Alot of Jedi also had fairly off-the-radar affairs with each other or other people; Obi-Wan of all people had at least three significant others, as did other Council members.

    I tend to think that Anakin being married would have forced the issue into the open, if he'd managed not to turn Sith. Anakin's heroism in the Clone Wars was unquestioned and he was probably the most public figure the Jedi had, and, of course, he'd have just defeated the worst threat the Jedi had ever known. Throwing him out of the Order after that seems pretty ridiculous to me.


  4. sith_rising Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2004
    star 4
    I thought that would make a fantastic "What if", Anakin is either expelled or steps down from being a Jedi at the beginning of ROTS. I don't see why Padme would be scandalized by it so much, I mean, we expect Senators to sleep with people they're not supposed to lol. She's not a kid anymore, nor is she Queen, so it would be strange if she continued to serve the Senate, Anakin moves to Naboo and becomes Mr. Mom, raises the kids, and maybe even starts his own Jedi/Force adept school. I mean, he's no Yoda or Mace Windu, but his Force skills are on par with the best of the Jedi Order, his potential exceeds any of theirs, he's a veteran of the Clone Wars, the killer of Count Dooku, and is the hero of the Republic.

    If he's not a threat to the Jedi or the Republic, on in league with the Sith or the Seperatists, I don't see any reason why he couldn't start his own organization. It would also be strange if he continued his friendship with the Chancellor, maybe even becoming his bodyguard or advisor at some point. I'd imagine that would irritate the Jedi - they expel Anakin, and he struts around the Senate in his expensive new robes with his expensive new custom lightsaber, whispering in the Chancellor's ear about this and that.
  5. thejeditraitor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 4
    "Could the Jedi REALLY have expelled Anakin?"

    "they can try !"...
  6. Drewdude91 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2011
    star 2
    Yes they could have, and he definitely didn't need to be a Jedi to restore balance. After all, there was no Jedi order when he fulfilled the prophecy. As for whether they actually would do it, it depends on the situation I think. Suppose he killed Palpatine instead of helping him in ROTS and fulfills the prophecy that way. I really don't see them expelling him after doing that. However, if he gets busted prior to that, then yes he would most likely face expulsion.
  7. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    They would have done whatever best served their interests.

    Anakin Skywalker was little more than a pawn to both Darth Sidious & the Jedi Council.
  8. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I agree. That was obvious when they both gave him the assignment to spy on the other one and report back.
  9. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Evil.


    Sidious asked for help and the Jedi did their real business off the record.
    Only bad things can happen when the honorable do worse than the wicked.

    The Sith destroyed the Jedi from within by guile, they manipulated them into compromising their integrity. Clouded their vision, indeed.
  10. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    If that were the case, the "honorable" would really be the "wicked". We don't see that here.
  11. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

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    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
  12. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    "Then you are lost!" - Obi-Wan Kenobi :cool:
  13. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    This.

    I would not call the Jedi "wicked," I don't think they were, but there is nothing to be gained whatsoever by dogma and inflexibility. Especially when your enemies use it to destroy you from within.

    In the ROTS novelization, Obi-Wan tried to warn Mace and Yoda about ordering Anakin to spy on Palpatine. He knew that Anakin would see it as being asked to betray a friend, and he also knew that telling Anakin that he is "supposed to be" loyal to the Jedi Order or the Jedi Code above any individual people, would not make that happen. Anakin was loyal to individual people before any abstract concepts, and the Council ignored that because...he wasn't supposed to be that way? OK. All the training and teaching in the world can not give someone a different personality.

    Obi-Wan, as much of an old-school PT Jedi that he was, at least understood Anakin for the most part and tried to advocate for him.

    Palpatine looked at Anakin as an individual, and used Anakin's best and worst qualities to his own advantage. And thus he won Anakin to his side.
  14. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    And yet, Obi-wan realized that Yoda and Mace were right when he saw the holographic footage of Anakin kneeling before Palpatine who is now been revealed as Darth Sidious, the Sith lord whom the Jedi have been hunting since TPM. Its just too bad that their plan to have Anakin spy on PalpSidious blew up in their faces due to Anakin betraying and helping Sidious murder all the Jedi. It may be important to treat people as individuals and not as carbon copies of yourself but its also important to be careful with what kind of people you're dealing with. Some people may be just like PalpSidious who takes advantage of you and cons you into doing what they want you to do. There's a reason why the Jedi never leave their ivory tower and its to avoid people like Sidious who could tempt them into turning to the Dark Side. Obi-wan tried to warn Anakin many times not to trust PalpSidious and the footage that Obi-wan saw proved that he's right but it upsets him to see that Anakin is willing to turn traitor against him and his fellow jedi.

    For that, Obi-wan is now forced to kill his own padawan.
  15. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Really? The only way the Jedi could avoid turning to the Dark Side was to stay in their ivory tower? I'm not buying it. Yoda, Mace and Obi-Wan were made of tougher stuff than that, as were the majority of the Jedi, if not all of them.

    As far as their being "right" about Palp/Sidious, they actually weren't--they thought Sidious was someone within Palpatine's inner circle who was influencing him. The truth ended up being much worse than they thought.

    And even if they had guessed that Palpatine himself was Sidious, that's beside the point. They used Anakin's friendship with Palpatine--they used Anakin himself--for their own purposes. And if they understood Anakin at all, they should have known that it would backfire. Obi-Wan did not anticipate that Palpatine himself was Sidious and therefore did not anticipate that Anakin would join Palpatine as Sidious, however, Obi-Wan did know that the order to spy on Palpatine would go over like a ton of duracrete. And he was right.

    Stating/implying that "if Anakin would have just adhered and blindly obeyed the Jedi dogma, none of this would have happened, therefore the dogma isn't the problem" is grossly oversimplifying the issue. Dogma and inflexibility works pretty well if all an organization's adherents were cloned on Kamino and blindly follow orders.

    Palpatine used the Jedi dogma, inflexibility, and head-in-the-sand syndrome against them, and would have done so even if Anakin had remained on Tatooine.
  16. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5


    Stating/implying that "if Anakin would have just adhered and blindly obeyed the Jedi dogma




    Palpatine used the Jedi dogma, inflexibility, and head-in-the-sand syndrome against them, and would have done so even if Anakin had remained on Tatooine



    I think Sids used Anakin's "weaknesses" against him - not necessarily the "Jedi dogma." Nor did the Order help, in 20/20 hindsight, either (speaking from their viewpoint).

    By weaknesses, I mean Anakin's blind attachments to individuals..."weaknesses" or traits that are not OF THEMSELVES bad or weak, but traits that a Jedi should recognize within himself and guard against being twisted. All humans have some weaknesses (I'm not singling out Anakin), but his turned out to be fatal due a combination of Sids exploiting them, the Jedi not addressing them, and Anakin allowing them to be twisted against him.

    Let's face it, any trait - even the "so-called" good ones like honesty, loyalty, friendship, sympathy - indulged to the extreme can lead to bad choices and undesirable actions.

    And when someone manipulates one as Sids did Anakin...you've got your seduction scenario down pat.
  17. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    You saw how Anakin turned out and that's because he was 10 years too late in being brought to the Jedi Temple. He's already developed emotions and attachments but has no idea how to control them. None of the Jedi knew how to help him since they never experienced what its like to be separated from their loved ones. It didn't help matters when they let him be friends with Palpatine, who is a Sith Lord in disguise and is amplifying Anakin's emotional trauma with all the ego-boosting and false promises which could lead to disasterous results should Anakin not get what he wants. The Jedi's way of life was working fine for 1,000 years until they brought in Anakin.

    He also knew that Palpatine could not be trusted and he was right about that too. He just didn't know how right he was and when Anakin found out that Palpatine is Darth Sidious, he should've realized that Palpatine is the one using him. Anakin should've taken his head out of his own ass and see that PalpSidious was never a real friend to him, just a decepticon who is only buttering him up with all those false promises so he could make the Jedi tear Anakin down. If Anakin had understood that PalpSidious never cared about him at all and only sees him as a powerful, yet expendable weapon, then he would never had sided with him. Anakin knew that the Jedi don't trust what Palpatine is doing with his authority over the Republic and having Palpatine reveal himself as Darth Sidious should prove to Anakin that the Jedi are right but he's letting his fear of losing Padme get in the way of that thus why he betrayed and helped Sidious murder all the Jedi (minus Obi-wan and Yoda).

    Oh sure, letting Anakin do whatever the hell he wants worked really well, didn't it? Too much free will leads to horrible choices which is why we have so much crime, war, and destruction in the world. If the Jedi had been more flexible with Anakin, he'd had fallen to the Dark Side a lot sooner long before Padme could reenter his life.
  18. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Agreed, which is one reason they should not have been isolated in their ivory tower. If they had ever experienced such separation themselves, if they had ever loved and lost a family member for example, they would have known how to help Anakin.

    Agreed, but they didn't know what Palpatine was.

    In the real world, oppressing women and minorities "worked fine for millenia" too. There are some in the world who would like to go back to it. Doesn't make it acceptable.

    If you think Anakin was allowed to do "whatever the hell he wanted", you watched very different movies than I did.

    And your philosophy sounds like a dictatorship: people are too stupid to have free will, and should have "someone wise" to tell them what to do.

    As far as your last line, that is strictly your opinion. Mine is very different, neither of us can know for sure, and your opinion in no way trumps mine.
  19. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Let's face it, Anakin was being manipulated by the Sith and the Jedi - the Sith for selfish and self-serving purposes and the Order for the "greater good."
  20. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Exactly. Sadly, the only people in Anakin's life who didn't use him were his mother, Obi-Wan, Padme and Luke. I won't even throw Qui-Gon into that mix: Qui-Gon seemed to care about Anakin himself to a point but he cared more about Anakin being the "Chosen One" more.

    Nobody likes being used. That's why the notion that the Jedi were perfect and Anakin should have simply been their blindly obedient little droid, is absurd to me.

    I will agree with another point that PMT99 made, that Anakin should have been able to see that he had been used by Palps. I think by that point in ROTS, Anakin was too desperate to care if Palpatine used him or not, as long as he held the hope of keeping Padme alive.

    Really sad, but yet another example of Palpatine playing his cards exactly right.

    The Jedi Order had done well for thousands of years before Palpatine came along and exploited their weaknesses.
  21. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

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    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
  22. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    They definitely weren't evil, manipulative, lying schemers. Dogmatic, self-absorbed and a bit stubborn, sure. And I think they had intentionally trained themselves not to care for people individually, only to care for the whole of citizenry or "the greater good" as you said. There were a few exceptions to that among individual Jedi of course, but as a general rule this was where their line of thinking led. And as such they justified using Anakin for their own purposes.

    I believe the Jedi had good intentions with which they justified their philosophy and methods, but the methods themselves were seriously wrong.
  23. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    ^^

    Bear in mind, whether I made that clear or not, I wasn't referring to Anakinfan, but those she had quoted about the horrible Jedi. They are no more evil and horrible than they are perfect and I dislike both extreme views.
  24. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    If they had experienced seperation and had a loved one die in their arms, they would've reacted the same way Anakin did after his mother died when he slaughtered a village full of sandpeople. That's why the Jedi created that "no-attachment" rule in the first place and why Obi-wan and Yoda tried to stop Luke from rescuing Han and Leia.

    I'm not familiar with women's rights but I'm all for wanting minorities to have civil rights. The Jedi philosophy is about self-control and being at peace with oneself but Anakin never understood any of that because he mistook being a Jedi for being a superhero who fights bad guys and saves damsels in distress. Anakin resented the way the Jedi operate things and didn't even try to adapt to their ways so its easy for him to side with PalpSidious.

    I watched the Council allow Anakin to spend more time with Padme especially by the end of AOTC when she's no longer in danger. They got married and Padme gets pregnant which led to Anakin having nightmares about Padme dying and you know what happens next in ROTS. If the Council had given another Jedi the assignment of protecting Padme, Anakin wouldn't have developed an attachment toward her, he wouldn't have snuck off to Tatooine to massacre all the sandpeople after losing his mother, nor would he have married and impregnate Padme. That way, Anakin would have nothing to gain from joining the Dark Side.

    But there is a downside to having a free country. People tend to abuse their freedom, they end up doing terrible stuff like the L.A. riots, the aftermath of Woodstock 1999, and the September 11th attacks. All I'm saying is that with freedom, comes responsibility which is similar to Ben Parker's "great power" speech from Spider-Man. Unlike Spidey, Anakin was unwilling to accept responsibility for his actions until the moment Emperor Sidious threw lightning bolts up Luke's ass.

    Freedom, like everything else, has a price.
  25. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Sounds like Anakin was pretty normal then.

    Humans (or species modeled after humans) not being attached to each other, however, is not only abnormal, it's pathological.

    We're pack animals. We form attachments. It's what we do. In the real world, people who cannot or will not form attachments are given a label from the DSM, although I can't remember right off the top of my head what that label is.

    FWIW I don't think the Jedi were mentally ill, but I think they lied to themselves about being "detached."

    So being nine years old, and thinking as a nine-year-old thinks, is a character flaw now?

    I can't blame him for that.

    ...who gave him the nurturing that he desperately needed.

    What Anakin needed was a friend/family member/etc. that he could trust to love him for who he was. If he had found that in another person when he came to Coruscant, he would not have been so drawn to Palpatine.

    That doesn't equate to being allowed to "whatever the hell he wanted."

    If the Jedi had given Anakin no rules whatsoever, that would have been allowing him to do "whatever the hell he wanted."

    Seriously? He was already attached to her in TPM.

    He snuck off to Tatooine to rescue his mother after he had been having dreams about her for a month--before Padme even re-entered his life. Anakin rescuing his mother had nothing whatsoever to do with Padme.

    And if the Jedi had freed Shmi in the first place and brought her to Coruscant, she would not have been kidnapped and tortured to death by the Tuskens and that tribe of Tuskens would still be alive.

    Other than Palpatine's continued friendship and validation.

    So you do believe that all countries (and organizations) should be dictatorships. Got it. And I'm afraid we're at an impasse.

    Palpatine, OTOH, agreed with you wholeheartedly.

    I happen to agree with Padme that democracy is messy, as it involves people who do not agree all the time, but the price of people not having freedom is far higher than a little mess.

    And that isn't something you'll convince me to change my mind about no matter how many more terrorist attacks you try to blame on the US. (Your "too much freedom leads to 9/11" statement, which I assumed was directed at the US, as the terrorists themselves were not from free countries.)
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