PT Could the Jedi REALLY have expelled Anakin?

Edit: I see anakinfan got back to you. You can ignore this, just thought I'd leave my opinion on the matter.

But Luke was right and Obi-Wan and Yoda were still wrong even then. If Luke hadn't gone, then Leia would have never escaped since R2 ended up fixing the hyperdrive. Also, even though Luke wasn't ready to face Vader, doing so allowed him to learn the truth which proved crucial to taking down the Emperor in Episode VI. He lost his hand, true, but while that's certainly unfortunate, he got an almost perfect prosthetic not long after (not to mention the fact that the presence of this prosthetic hand, in part, prevents him from turning to the dark side). So I wouldn't say that attachments are bad. In fact, I think it's rather counter-intuitive to try to suppress them. Becoming attached is part of normal human psychology and while harm can come from it, teaching people to not let their emotional responses overwhelm them is more important. Banning attachment, and thus forcing people to suppress related emotions, is a good way to create emotional turmoil (which is what we see Anakin suffer from in much of Episodes II and III).

I think the point anakinfan was trying to get at was that just because something has lasted a long time doesn't make it particularly good. Oppression has existed for centuries, such as slavery in agriculture, and simply because it was implemented for a long time does not make it an inherently practical, effective, or moral system (quite the contrary, in the case of slavery). You can control yourself and be at peace without having to give up attachments or, alternatively, by allowing yourself to form attachments but letting go of them if it's required of you in the moment. Suppressing or ignoring human desire does not make it go away. The Jedi's problem is that they never acknowledge that these feelings exist (such as Anakin's love for his mother) and instead prohibit them, as though that will cause them to magically disappear.

I think you hit a major point when you said Anakin mistook being a Jedi for a superhero. But look at how old he was when he joined the Order -- nine. I have a brother that age and, even though he's seen the movies and The Clone Wars, that's exactly how he views the Jedi. At Anakin's age, there's no way he's going to understand or be able to implement Jedi philosophy and it's ludicrous to expect that of him. He wants to help people in TPM and thinks that being a Jedi will allow him to free the slaves and have a laser sword. He doesn't realize he has, essentially, signed up for a position in a priesthood.

Truthfully, I got the impression that Anakin enjoyed being a Jedi because of his natural talents for it (Force potential and all), it allowed him to help others, and it gave him a certain level of prestige. I'm pretty certain he found the asceticism rather unnecessary however.

 

Oh, please don't. I love a good a debate. Unfortunately, I haven't had the time to get online much lately and so I probably won't be able to continue long in this discussion. Work has been getting in the way these past few months. I do enjoy reading your back-and-forth with PMT99 , though.

 

Anakin seems to be eager to serve Palpatine and yet is angry with the Jedi when they ask him essentially the same thing. And just as angry when Padme asks him to influence Palpatine. From his point of view, everyone around him tries to manipulate him but he's still willing to give Palps a pass. It's very telling I think.

 

Of course they could have. Nowhere in the films does it say that the Chosen One has to be a Jedi. Quite obviously, they didn't however.

 

Anakinfan earlier said something about Qui-Gon caring about Anakin because he is the chosen one.

Is that bad? Im sure he would have still been nice to Anakin even if he wasn't the chosen one. He just wouldn't feel the need to free him from slavery. (Because if Anakin was not the chosen one he could not win a podrace).

If you had stumbled upon an extraordinary person, would you not try to nurture them?

 

Anakin seems to be eager to serve Palpatine and yet is angry with the Jedi when they ask him essentially the same thing.


One, the Jedi had already angered Anakin by denying him the title of "Master" after allowing him to sit on the Jedi Council. Two, unlike Palpatine, Obi-Wan was not particularly subtle in his request for Anakin to spy on Palpatine. It's all about presentation. Palpatine did a better job of asking Anakin to spy, by disguising his request with patriotism for the Republic. Obi-Wan's request made it clear that Anakin's actions would be for the benefit of the Jedi Order.



That was a very good read, I think I agree on all points. Just a quick note; I hadn't thought about the fact that Luke going to Bespin helps Leia escape. That's a good point. And I agree that Luke's attachments turned out to be a good thing.


It was Lando's actions that helped Leia and Chewie escape, not Luke's. In fact, Luke's presence delayed their escape from Bespin.

 

Well, Anakin hadn't earned mastery (self-mastery) in my view and apparently that of the Council PLUS he was not appointed to the Council by the Council but as Palpatine's REPRESENTATIVE.

Not as himself.

Should they have granted him mastery is an entirely different and eminently debatable, but separate question.

And the request was not for the glory of the Order or anything. Sure, it could have been couched as in the novel - but the Council didn't hide beyond sweet words as Palpatine. Whether they should have disguised the request in sugar is also debatable, but the motives were pure - seeking the disturbance in the Chancellor's office.