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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Could this trilogy end with a "dark side victory"?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by MrElculver2424, Jan 3, 2017.

  1. SithLord28273

    SithLord28273 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Sep 22, 2016
    I say it should end on a ending where it is not a happy or a sad ending.
     
  2. Bowen

    Bowen Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 6, 1999
    I'm ok with that. I mean I don't think it has to end happy. If you look at the trilogies, first one is a real downer, second is a great happy ending. The third could end down too, as long as 10-12 show the restoration of the republic. I would like to see at some point the actual return to glory of the Republic and the galaxy as a whole. I know people can easily say, "But that's not exciting, there's no conflict, story is all about conflict." You're absolutely right, and that's true, it is. But I don't think that precludes some sort of return to glory first. I think it would even work if that was mostly off-screen, like 10 years pass between trilogies and by that point a new Jedi Order is established, a new Republic government is in control, but some new threat emerges.

    I also think there could be some sort of Jedi Crusade where a large group of new Force recruits span the galaxy in a giant mission to bring together disparate worlds once again. There could be a lot of hostility, a main character who questions the mission and whether a galaxy-wide government structure is even a good thing, but some rising evil that convinces him that the only way to fight evil is with a large united force, etc. There are a lot of ways you could handle it.

    One thing I don't think any of the fans want long term is to see a continued rehashing of rebel group versus evil group. I mean at some point we're going to need to see something a bit different. The Resistance versus the First Order is fine, it's a twist of the Rebels vs. the Empire, and it's kind of an interesting one when you look at it another way. I don't know how many people have noticed this or picked up on it, but both Rogue One and TFA suggest a very similar philosophy or "truth" despite being such different films. What's going on in TFA with the Resistance, New Republic, and the First Order? The Resistance are "extremists," led by the old guard (Leia), who don't believe peace with the First Order is possible. The New Republic is the rest of Europe pre-World War II -- peace through appeasement. Keep a watch on the First Order, but no need to take them too seriously. Same thing with Rogue One, Saw Gerrera "is an extremist," but who is right in the end, the idiotic and ineffective Alliance Council or Saw? The Alliance Council was so inept that the main characters of Rogue One said forget it, we're doing this ourselves, and then the competent leaders from the Alliance followed Jyn's lead. In the end, Saw was vindicated because he wasn't "an extremist" from an historical view. He simply understood exactly what was going on. Both movies argue that extreme evil requires extremists to combat the threat. Both argue the "status quo" or appeasement or any talk of peace isn't the solution to these levels of evil.

    Would the galaxy get back to a point where it doesn't require extremists and extreme actions one day? A point where the governing body correctly assesses a threat and responds accordingly? One thing I think might be interesting is to see the growth of both sides from TFA through Episode IX. Rather than see any real resolution to the conflict (I realize mainstream audiences may not like this), what if the Resistance starts to build their base larger and more planets join in their cause, meanwhile the First Order gathers up previously sympathetic worlds to the Empire and each one of the sides gains power until a larger conflict down the road. Almost like a Separatists versus Republic type of conflict, I suppose.
     
  3. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    I would like to see the Resistance portrayed more grey or I guess just address the terrifying implications. Essentially they are now a vigilante paramilitary group that has no political oversight. As much as red tape can be annoying it is also needed to stop the military from getting total control. I would love if we address that that "extreme evil requires extremists to combat it" idea can just as easily lead to creating more extremists. Look at how the FO and the very biased illogical Imp loyalists spawned from the Rebellion fighting the Empire. They needed to fight back but people like Saw vindicated the Empire's talk of control in a way. If your response to violence is to respond in full you will often just perpetuate the fight for longer. Fighting fire with fire just burns everyone. The Rebellion is needed as is the Resistance but working to create peace without the need of such groups would be a very hard thing to do but also make these new heroes so great. If they end the fight in a way that ends it without as much violence or without resorting to extremism to match extremism that would be a great place to take the saga.

    As much as I love Star Wars, it does often run the risk of promoting redemptive violence. At the end of the day it does not really but i would love to see them confront the notion head on and have these heroes address how hard the situation is. Groups like the Resistance and resorting to violence are needed to fight back but I want to see it very clearly shown that the fight ends when the good guys have done as much as needed and then stop. That and they need to show that the things our heroes did (even if needed) where terrible and should not have happened and should be worked to prevent from needing to happen. Part of why SW works is that the war part of it is shown to not be a good thing. It is terrible and has to end but in the best and most moral way. Luke ending the Galactic Civil War (in ROTJ alone not factoring in anything else for a sec) through treating Vader compassionately and refusing to resort to violence. Yes the DS II still blows up and stormies die and Palps is murdered but there is a clear point of that was brought on by the Empire refusing peace and when they where prevented from continuing the violence they where treated with compassion. Vader from Luke and the stormtroopers we see being taken prisoner when they are surrounded. Violence is a last resort and not reveled in or used recklessly like Saw used it.

    My point is I really want to see that again but even more in the forefront and more emphasized when it comes to stuff like blowing up enemy bases or weapons. Those are necessary sure but still death on a large scale and should be addressed the same way RO handles Cassian killing the informant. As much as we do show restraint being important, we still don't really address in the movies that even stuff like blowing up Starkiller base or shooting a Stormtrooper is a terrible thing and would weigh down on people. I don't even want sympathetic FO troops as much as showing that even the deaths of evil ones is still an unfortunate thing and maybe even something Rey openly avoids.

    I agree that we should see the Republic brought back in all its glory and part of that should be because of a very explicit moral high ground the new heroes are taking. Think of it like the end of Avengers being what created the New Republic before but this one is better and longer lasting because it is brought about by the end of Age of Ultron. The victory over the FO should be more of a philosophical one which is why the peace is more lasting. More threats can show up but they would be new ones and not fighting from within like there is in the NR.

    While Vision does kill Ultron it is because Ultron resorted to violence and now their fight is done, but that is not the victory. Saving everyone they possibly could and proving Ultron wrong was their victory. That is what I want the end of 9 to be like.


    Sorry for the long post.
     
  4. Gigoran Monk

    Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2016
    I don't think you need to apologize for "red tape." What you're talking about is civilian control over the military, which is a fundamental requirement for a democratic system of government. It's a noble thing, which needs no caveat. Unfortunately, much of popular culture (as well as idiotic talking heads) have slowly convinced large swathes of the population that democracy, in practice, is worthless. Just think of all the simplistic "all politicians are terrible" sentiments and jokes there are in any given situation. It's a really problematic phenomenon, IMO, and partly responsible for the rise of Trump and Trumpism. Though in the U.S., I think that erosion of trust in government began with Nixon, and has simply gotten to the rotting point today. Hopefully, some new voices come along soon to rescue our Republic from this crisis of confidence.
     
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  5. MrElculver2424

    MrElculver2424 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 11, 2014

    The tradeoffs of freedom + danger vs. security + safety is a constant topic of interest and debate, and I'm interested to see where Star Wars can take this further. Most people in the West believe in democracy and freedom and fair and free elections, but there are times when the system fails to respond to external and/or internal dangers. In certain ways, a stronger central government can sometimes provide that greater security and stability, but at the cost to some freedoms and rights. This was touched on with the Republic/Rebel Alliance vs. the Galactic Empire, but I'd like to see it taken even further...

    What does Kylo Ren truly want? What are his goals? It would be interesting if he truly wanted to make the galaxy more stable and more secure and prosperous, and believes that his way of going about it is the right way. ...or perhaps he doesn't care at all, and is truly an evil monster...
     
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  6. Gigoran Monk

    Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 2, 2016
    Actually, in practice in a lot of democratic countries, de-centralization has often led to fewer freedoms and rights (particularly for minorities) at the state and local levels. Stronger national governments, as long as they are bound by democratic structures and laws, often offer recourse to those that are vulnerable to the more volatile whims of local and state governments. As a student of the history of governance, I would certainly be interested in Star Wars exploring such ground, but I won't hold my breath! :)
     
  7. La Calavera

    La Calavera Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2015
    I would say a certain degree of centralization (and all the benefits it comes with like national healthcare, enforcement of human rights protection laws, environmental protection laws, preventive measures against terrorism, etc.) is essential to modern democracies nowadays. Or course, one must not go overboard with it and create a dictatorship.

    But in a way, this black and white view of politics it’s how the New Republic was portrayed in the novel Bloodline, with the Centralists (pro centralized government) vs Populists (pro extreme decentralization, a Republic with virtually no power over its worlds), and this idea reportedly came directly from Rian. In the book, these two parties were portrayed almost like far right vs far left extremists, with no reflection on moderate politics or even in-between parties. And of course, in that scenario, it was no surprise that the Centralists ended up revealing themselves as the secret supporters of the First Order, almost like a caricature of “evil politics” in fiction. Though to the book’s credit, Claudia Gray did point out one shortcoming of being a Populist and believing in no Republic law intervention in other planets plagued by crime an anarchism, which reminded of the Republic’s weaknesses in TPM, whose laws did not reach to Tatooine where slavery was rampant and a reason why Anakin felt more attracted to “benevolent dictatorships”.

    It would be interesting if these issues get explored in TLJ in way that reflects the naïve idealism of Populists as one of the reasons why the New Republic failed (as they opted to blissfully ignore the whole problem that the First Order was becoming), but it also reminds us that an extremist far-right ideology to counter it is equally catastrophic and often worse. The answer for a better world is always something in the middle.
     
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  8. Ewan Tibbetts

    Ewan Tibbetts Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Nov 13, 2016
    Government can never be near-perfect in Star Wars or real life. Perhaps Luke will adopt the Bendu's philosophy and just stop caring about who wins and loses.

    The Bendu became one of the few force ghosts in canon, so Luke could have spoken with him. Making someone a force ghost isn't something Lucasfilm does lightly.
     
  9. Wildcatbarry

    Wildcatbarry Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2015
    Let's just hope it doesn't end with the Force be extinguished or destroyed because "the Force is what gives a Jedi his powers. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together"
     
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  10. IG Lancer

    IG Lancer Jedi Knight star 3

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    Feb 8, 2015
    This trilogy started showing the failure of the "good side" (the state of the heroes of the OT), then we were shown more failure (destruction of the New Republic), followed by tragedy (death of Han Solo), and a victory that was more like a draw (the Starkiller was destroyed, but the New Republic was too, and the war goes on...).

    That is too much dark stuff happening already for this story to end with a victory of the Dark Side... Star Wars is not a Grimdark setting, it needs some lighter points... The PT worked because we already knew the good side would win the rematch...

    If this trilogy ends with a victory of the Dark Side, it would look like "the bad guys started punching the good guys, kept hitting them until they were on the floor, and then they kicked them to death. The end..."
     
  11. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 28, 2016
    Was the Populist party really pro extreme decentralization? I got the sense from Leia that it was almost more like the relationship between the Feds and Anti-Feds with the compromise being similar to how we got the Bill of Rights. They don't hate centralization, they just want to make sure there are certain unalienable rights and things the Republic cannot affect. Of course there is certainly the far right Populists who are all no interference (Star Fleet). I would love to see more of the far right Populists explored cause they seem really important but we don't actually see one in person as far as I can remember.

    I really hope the Republic is brought back and the whole thing for the net trilogy is keeping that peace and despite its flaws, trying to maintain a Republic. If we constantly tear the Republic down and act like "oh government has issues might as well scrap it for paramilitary organizations" then we risk making Star Wars sort of betray its initial themes.
     
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  12. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    Well I say just research Rian Johnsons, Kathleen Kennedy's Bob Igers and Colin Tevarrows (and maybe members of the story groups) political leanings to get a gage of what direction they can go politically
     
  13. Ewan Tibbetts

    Ewan Tibbetts Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Nov 13, 2016
    They seem quite left leaning.

    La Calavera I like that they don't include left/right wing politics in Star Wars though. They keep it strictly authoritarian vs libertarian. As vncredleader pointed out Bloodline explains that both the centrists and populists have a left and right wing.

    Star Wars needs war. The cycle of peace, tyranny and revolution will never end unless Disney wants a marketing nightmare. [face_laugh]

    I think the Bendu is the official position on what the best governmental system is. It doesn't matter, you're all going to die anyway. [face_dancing]
     
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  14. GregMcP

    GregMcP Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 7, 2015

    An ending where you come out thinking "meh. whatever." :)
     
  15. GregMcP

    GregMcP Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 7, 2015

    The Force likes War. That's why it keeps on rebalancing. So that there is forever Good and Evil fighting. The Galaxy would be boring otherwise.

    And yeah, The Force is the Director, the Writer. Disney. It's rather like the movie Cabin In the Woods.

    Every trilogy starts with rather improbable occurrences, coincidences, dumb luck, unlikely abilities, that set up the adventures in the following 3 movies.
    That's The Force putting things in motion. That's the Director setting up conflicts and characters to make a story.
     
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  16. Ewan Tibbetts

    Ewan Tibbetts Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Nov 13, 2016
    That's a very interesting way of looking at it. I think I need to watch Cabin in the Woods.
     
  17. La Calavera

    La Calavera Force Ghost star 4

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    Sep 2, 2015
    I got the sense that they were. I’m not talking about Leia here because she was different, and albeit technically a Populist, it was clear she did not cosign to some of their naïve beliefs and was the only reasonable politician in the group. I’m talking about the Populist party in general. Wasn’t there a part in the book where Leia wanted to help Ryloth (upon Ryloth’s request for a Republic intervention) and she was advised by her Populist colleagues not to, because it was sorta against what they wanted to do with the New Republic? The Populists were so scared of any suggestion of a central government that could potentially give room for a new Palpatine to raise that they went all the way to veto any kind of attempt to give the Republic government any authority over other worlds at all.

    And this was also reflected in Mon Mothma’s policies, with her Military Disarmament Act. While it is natural to expect for any sensible government to not keep an expensive army around they no longer need and redirect those funds to more important matters, they went to the extreme of reducing their army to 10% of their Rebellion forces, which is frankly insane for a galactic government responsible for overseeing the protection of its many worlds it governs. They weren’t that many to begin with, and 10% of that is a joke. That leaves almost no defense or no military intelligence against possible threats.

    This issue of no-military, no-intervention whatsoever beliefs of the Populist Ideology-driven New Republic was very much present in TFA. Although Leia had some support from the New Republic, the Resistance was still an independent body from the New Republic – and the only ones actually doing something to fight against the First Order and prevent them from gaining too much power. Leia resigned from the New Republic politics and went on her own to create an army to fight the First Order because she realized you can’t just sit around believing in a utopia and turn a blind eye to evil happening across the room. This difference between Leia (the practical realist) and Mon Mothma (the blind utopist) was also emphasized in the Aftermath series btw.
    I wished the New Republic was here to stay but alas, the new movie destroyed it much like it destroyed the New Jedi Order when they hit the reset button to 1977. It is what it is, so I only hope now that the story around it, as it is presented in the movies, is interesting at least.

    I used that comparison to exemplify the extremist way political parties were presented in the book, with no middle ground. That was actually pointed out specifically in the book, that they couldn’t find anything to agree on because they were so….opposing I guess. But truthfully, we never got a look at their views on issues like national universal healthcare, education, equal rights, government funding vs government control, bank regulation, etc., issues that denotate clear agendas. In fact, there were barely actual politics at all in the book.

    As for no left/right wing politics in the movie, it’s a bit too late for that. The First Order was portrayed like space Nazis, it’s difficult not to see that. People are already making comparisons with real world far-right extremism for a good reason.
     
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  18. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 28, 2016
    From my recollection of things you might be overselling just how decentralized the rest of the Populists where but then again it has been a while since I read Bloodline. I forget what exactly was going on with Ryloth but I thought that had more to do with their being a political debate going on and them not wanting Leia to run off with Casterfo to deal with it. They don't really seem to want no intervention, just more planetary control. Kinda like what EE did with Mothma's plan for the fleet, split it into smaller fleets for each planet that can form with the actual main military one in times of need. While that is a bit too decentralized it is far from non intervention. The more I think about it the more I think we really needed to see more of the Populist party cause beyond Leia and like two others we never really got into the party overall the same way we did with the Centralists.

    Yeah i really wish the reset button was not pressed. Going back to the smaller cell of good guys is not what I would have done but you could still pull that off without destroying the Republic. Just have the Resistance be the specops for the Pubs or do the thing the film did with them being a secretly funded paramilitary group cause the Republic is compromised. While the Republic seems to not be involved in much directly and is ignoring the FO that is not really the case entirely since the Resistance is getting Pub funding so clearly some of them are on board just they can't risk the entire senate know or maybe the public does not know. Honestly who is funding them? It just occurred to me that we still have no idea. The Republic is supporting them secretly that is clear but how? It seems to be through legal means in Before the Awakening but then who decided it? The senate? That explains the FO knowing but then that would easily leak to the masses and then they would react and ask the senate to clue them in which they clearly have not. Maybe it was done by a special committee. I kinda want that answer before TLJ comes out.
     
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  19. La Calavera

    La Calavera Force Ghost star 4

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    Sep 2, 2015
    You’re right about muddiness in the storyline surrounding the Resistance. I think that JJ Abrams just made the ANH homage he wanted to do and left the story group and Rian to pick up the pieces and try to cocoon a coherent story. My guess is that Resistance was not supported by the Senate, because if they were officially funded by the New Republic then it would make zero sense calling them “Resistance”. They would be just a specialized branch in the New Republic military body.

    It’s been a while and honestly, aside from Leia, I only remember Varish as the other prominently featured Populist who argued in the Senate. I know she opposed from the start even an investigation on Ryloth because it was an intrasystem matter and the New Republic would be “overreaching” its authority.
    But even when Leia came back with results from the investigation and proof of the First Order, they opted to do absolutely nothing. I remember throughout the book Leia having to act alone with just the help of Casterfo and her loyal friends because she had no support from the Senate or even her party, I believe.

    Not to mention, just the whole idea of merely creating the First Senator office, which would have been the equivalent of creating a President administration in the New Republic, was vehemently opposed by the Populists. Once they realized they could not win, they changed their tactics and opted to support Leia’s candidacy.


    EDIT: The feeling I got from Bloodline is that both Populists and Centralists were so extreme opposites, they ended up doing nothing and bicker about idiocies and etiquette instead, resulting in a perpetual state of political gridlock. The Populists may have seemed on the surface the the better out of the two because Leia, our hero, was in their party, and we got a better "humanized" look into other Populists then we got into other Centralists.
    But really, Leia was still the only Populist who believing in taking action and doing something about it. The rest of the group were just a bunch of passive-reactive people, who were only there to react whenever the Centralists got an idea.
    So in the end, what I think the New Republic needed was less Centralists, less Populists, and more middle ground politicians who cared more about protecting the galactic citizens. And people like Leia.
     
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  20. CarboniteSolo

    CarboniteSolo Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 11, 2013
    It will be a bittersweet ending, the good guys win, but at a price. That price will be Han Solo in The Force Awakens, Leia Organa and Luke Skywalker in Ep.9

    Leia and Luke's death will be equivalent to Obi-wan and Yoda's death figuratively. The good guys win, but they (Rey, Finn and Poe) had to lose so much in order to get there and defeat the evil Snoke, Kylo Ren and the First Order.
     
  21. Ewan Tibbetts

    Ewan Tibbetts Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Nov 13, 2016
    Ah, thanks for clarifying. I also noticed how partisan the two factions in Bloodline were.

    The First Order look like space natzis but that's more to play on peoples OT nostalgia. They are more controlling than the Republic and use brain washed troops. That's all we know. Depending on your ideology you could see them as any authoritarian group. Personally I see them as edgy neo-natzis with money (and that's why I love them :)) but one could perceive their initial harmlessness as a parallel to North Korea today.

    Tbh i'm just talking out of my arse now. I just find it an interesting subject.
     
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  22. La Calavera

    La Calavera Force Ghost star 4

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    Sep 2, 2015
    True, North Korea can be used as a comparison. I actually think the best comparison is terrorist organizations, due to the strong element of fanaticism in their concept, the fact that they have no clear political agenda (they just want to destroy their enemies and…cosplay, I guess?) and also because they are not an official government.
    But still, Hux’s speech sounded like Hitler. I think most of the audience will just automatically assume they are just Space Nazis because of that.
     
  23. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 28, 2016
    Yeah it honestly seemed like both groups did not care about helping anyone. it all became less about the government and just became a **** measuring contest between parties. I would like to see some Populists who are more like Leia. There are thousands of senators, I doubt all of them on that party want to be isolationists in the same way not all Republicans agree on health care or Democrats with foreign relations. The real evil is honestly the same as irl most of the time: the two party system!
     
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  24. fishtailsam

    fishtailsam Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2003
    I would say it began with Prohibition in 1920, the term Scoff-law was coined to describe how, as a nation, people stopped respecting the authority of the government.




    Uhhhhhhh, I mean Star Wars!
    ...and it will end positively.
     
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  25. Gigoran Monk

    Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 2, 2016
    Yes, but under FDR (and for many years leading up to the Vietnam era), there was a huge revival in respect for government and the Presidency.

    And then Star Wars!
     
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