CT Could Vader and Luke have overthrown the Emperor?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Darth Arthurius, Jan 20, 2018.

  1. Darth Arthurius

    Darth Arthurius Jedi Padawan

    Jan 29, 2016
    Let's say Luke decides to join Vader in Empire...

    Could their "combined strength" as Vader put it have defeated the Emperor? Was the Imperial hierarchy structured that if Vader did overthrow the Emperor (with Luke's help) they would be able to take over? How much of the Fleet was loyal to Vader? How much of the bureaucracy could he have bent to his/Luke's rule?
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
  2. darth-skycrawler

    darth-skycrawler Jedi Master star 2

    Aug 7, 2001
    Yes by ROTJ, they could have done it together. At the time of ESB Luke would need a couple of years more training.

    Palpatine seems to have brought the empire under tighter control by ESB. Vader also seems to have been given much more personal power and free reign. I think the death star would be needed to keep planets in line. So had the battle of Endor been won by the empire, Vader/Luke killed the emperor, then I believe they would have used the death star to force the galaxy to obey.
  3. firesaber

    firesaber Jedi Master star 4

    Mar 5, 2006
    I submit they did just that in ROTJ. Done in any other setting at any other time the Emperor would have expected it and no doubt planned for it.
  4. Your Pal Friendpatine

    Your Pal Friendpatine Jedi Youngling star 1

    Dec 29, 2017
    Yeah, and I can't help but think they could have even done it quite a bit easier. If Vader hadn't blocked Luke's attempt to kill the Emperor, or blocked it and then just swung his own lightsaber back a few inches, then he would have been gone. It may have been easier to turn Luke if he'd just murdered the Emperor. But who knows if Palpatine might have sensed that betrayal as opposed to the heat of the moment decision that Vader made.
  5. Sara_Kenobi

    Sara_Kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 7

    Sep 21, 2000
    I think that Vader and Luke could have overthrown the Emperor. I believe that was Vader's plan from the ESB confrontation with Luke.
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
  6. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

    Apr 3, 2002
    It's possible one of them would have lost their life. Either way, scare a few officers and they pledge their loyalty. I assume some of the Empire would have tried to splinter off. Then Luke and or Vader would spend time hunting down the Imperial remnants that did not stay loyal.
  7. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 19, 2016
    I'm going to choose no.
  8. MoffJacob

    MoffJacob Jedi Knight star 2

    Dec 25, 2015
    It sure was Vader's plan in ESB and ROTJ. Too bad he was utterly defeated and disarmed by DS Luke. Sidious was a fool to think Luke could kill his father, or that Vader could end Luke. That was his undoing.
    It would have been interesting, as an "alternative story", to see Luke embracing his father at the end of ESB and then the two of them facing the Emperor after a year of DS training. But I'm not sure Vader could have trained Luke without the Emperor knowing it...probably, it would have caused a schism and an inner civil war...Coruscant and most of the Army and Moffs loyal to Palps but nearly the entire fleet and most of the Outer Rim and crime syndicates (and Hutts?) loyal to Vader-Luke/Piett...and I could see Vader getting a deal-truce with the Rebellion thanks to DS Luke...

    That said, the telekinesis + saber skills of Vader combined with the youthful energy, agility speed and saber skills of DS Luke would have been enough against the older version of Ep VI Sidious; I can picture them easily blocking Palps' Lightning with their sabers and tiring him out in relentless melee attacks, Vader constantly tormenting him with telekinesis, DS Luke delivering the heavy saber blows...
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
  9. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Host, PT Interview Thread star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Feb 18, 2014
    Vader would be taken out of the fight really quickly because force lightning would be fatal. So I do not think so.

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Feb 24, 2005
    Concur. They did overthrow the Emperor together, just not in the way either expected.
  11. Your Pal Friendpatine

    Your Pal Friendpatine Jedi Youngling star 1

    Dec 29, 2017
    I don't know, Luke came pretty close to doing just that. I guess it was only after he chopped off Vader's hand and the similarities between him and his father hit home that he snapped out of it. Prior to that he was in murder mode after the dig at turning Leia. Luke resisted turning but it was a very close thing. It's not like they had a close father/son relationship, Luke had only just recently discovered that Vader was his father and every time they had crossed paths Vader had either tried to kill or abduct his son.
    MoffJacob likes this.
  12. Lukers

    Lukers Jedi Knight star 1

    Jun 16, 2016
    Probably not in the way that we expect a typical overthrow. For example, if we say that Vader let Luke take that first swipe at the Emperor instead of blocking it, Luke probably would have been fried to pieces then and there and Vader would be on his own. Vader knows how to deflect the lightning with his lightsaber but if he even just slightly misses a dodge, he would be taken out of the battle for good. I don't think it would have worked simply because that would have been something Palpatine would be expecting. After all, it is the Sith way for an apprentice to try and kill his master. As Luke said before the duel - "your overconfidence is your weakness" - proved to be true as Palpatine never expected the possibility of Vader turning on his master out of the good and love in his heart instead of the deceit and treachery that a Sith usually would use.
    WarmNyota_SweetAyesha likes this.
  13. MrMojoRisin

    MrMojoRisin Jedi Master star 4

    Jun 20, 2005
    They did defeat him in ROTJ. Had they chosen to do it together, I'd say that it would have been a lot quicker.
  14. Conspirators09

    Conspirators09 Jedi Youngling

    Feb 11, 2018
    Totally. It would have been more of a coup than two men up against an entire military. The Empire was really just the Emperor's concoction.
  15. CaptainEO

    CaptainEO Jedi Master star 1

    Mar 13, 2002
    Yes, and they did.
  16. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Sounds like a Pokemon battle.
    I think fool is going a bit far. By this time we know Sidious has already exploited the confusion of two other Jedi (Anakin, Dooku) to turn them into his servants. He seemed to make the calculated decision that he could do the same to Luke. Since he didn't know Luke at all, I guess he underestimated him. Admittedly he was comparatively very lazy in his approach to turning Luke. He played the long game with Anakin/Dooku setting up their falls years in advance; while with Luke it was basically

    "Turn to the dark side."

    "Turn to the dark side."

    "Turn to the dark side."
    "Fine then I'll kill you!"
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
    Tosche_Station likes this.
  17. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
  18. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Jan 10, 2015
    Precisely. Deep down, Vader absolutely loathed Sidious. He had long wanted to overthrow the Emperor, but he did not believe he could accomplish this alone. When Galen Marek asks if Vader never planned to destroy Sidious, Vader says, "Not with you, no." Vader saw Luke as the perfect candidate for a powerful apprentice, given that he was his direct descendant. I think that Vader mainly saw Luke was a means to gain more power and to attain something of Padme's legacy, but after Luke rejected his offer in TESB, that's when he began to feel conflict within.

  19. MoffJacob

    MoffJacob Jedi Knight star 2

    Dec 25, 2015
    Lightning can be blocked with a lightsaber
  20. CLee

    CLee Jedi Padawan star 1

    Jun 18, 2017
    Probably. Vader/Anakin actually did defeat Palpatine mostly due to surprise (as well as being self-sacrificing) but Palpatine probably would have been quite surprised had they both-on-the Dark Side turned against him.

    We see from the prequels Force lightning is strong but not overwhelming against a lightsaber.
  21. Ithorians

    Ithorians Jedi Knight star 2

    Apr 26, 2016
    About Palpatine´s lightning, I´ve never understood why it is sometimes assumed that, because of his suit, Vader is close to a non-factor against Sidious. He can block it with his lightsaber, he can tank it for a little while (we´ve seen this both in Legends and Canon) and, above all, we´ve seen what Palpatine´s lightning can do to any individual, from Yoda to Mace Windu. They were incapacitated by it regardless of not having a life suit: the only difference is that in Vader´s case, the damage would be more permanent.

    In the end, Palpatine´s biggest virtue wasn´t the power of his lightning or how fast he could be with a lightsaber (I prefer to imagine him without lightsaber at all, in fact). He was playing on Vader´s and Luke´s doubt and instability over the situation. For Luke, it was "what if I can´t kill the Emperor"; "what if I do kill him and my father still doesn´t join me?"; "what if the entire Rebel Alliance is destroyed and I can´t stop it"; "what if Leia gets captured and indeed turned by them". And for Vader, it´s complex too: "If Luke doesn´t join me after killing the Emperor, how can I turn him on my own then?", "what if Palpatine did indeed forsee everything I´m trying to do now, and prepared accordingly?", etc...

    That´s the Emperor real power for me. Now, if suddently both Vader and Luke turn against him in a coordinated attack, I have no doubt they had a good chance at succeeding. It was a gamble indeed, but with a very smart use of psychology as a safety net...
    Jarrus likes this.
  22. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Mar 6, 2007
    They might have succeeded in killing Darth Sidious. But there would have been no Empire for them to rule afterwards. Sheev had a Contingency.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2018
  23. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 12, 2014

    Yes I believe so. And they would have ruled the Galaxy as Father and Son, with Luke's heirs following them.

    I believe at ESB, Luke still needed to complete his training. Lord Vader certainly was heir apparent, and commanded loyalty, respect, and sometimes fear of the Fleet and Imperial Forces.

    I doubt they would resist. The Republic transformed into the Empire. It was legitimate. Only a case of waiting, or bringing forward, for Palpatine's demise.

    Imagine Emperor Skywalker hunting down the Rebels and any defectors. True order to the galaxy.
  24. Mandalorian Riddler

    Mandalorian Riddler Jedi Master star 4

    Feb 27, 2018
    Would've been interesting, I believe they could've.. Depends on what the intentions after were.
    DarthTalonx likes this.