ST Could we actually have a bias AGAINST praising this movie too much

to me it goes empire strikes back than force awakens, Im one of the rare fans who wil praise what episode 4 did as far as visuals, sound and spectacle but wont gloss over the very real flaws of A New hope, when it came to characters, dialogue, and acting.

To be honest I think that is where the line in the sand is drawn.... most folks that dislike the force awakens is bc it does not do enough new world building like a new hope, and go off in a new crazy direction. on the other side the fans that love ep. 7, like me will say that maybe true, but the characters, dialogue, and acting are so far superior to A new hope that it doesnt matter to us, bc we care more about character development in the movie, than world building.

just my take on it

 

I mean I think that ANH is a fine, really good film. But I think that, as a piece of filmmaking, TFA is better in many respects. Personally, I found:

-The acting in TFA was the best all-around of any SW movie imo.
-The dialogue as well.
-I took to the new cast/characters quicker than the ANH ones. Not that I didn't love the ANH characters, I did. But TFA made me like them more. I almost instantly fell in love with Rey for example. Also Finn and Poe.
-TFA Kylo is a more interesting villain than ANH Vader was.
-The overall direction and cinematography was better as well.
-Etc.

Note that I LOVE ANH though.

 

amen its just the truth when you look at ANH as an individual film and not part of the OT, it is really lacking in very key areas, To me Mark hamills very subpar acting, Fisher and george lucas missing a major emotional beat with her planet blowing up. the fact that vader was not vader yet and just a cowboy with a black hat on aka plain on bad guy.

I recently watched ROTJ again and while it also has flaws, there is a master piece of movie in there if it was just edited and shot a little better. You can def see where george meddled too much on certain scenes

 

I'm not so sure I have a bias against praising TFA too much or that I just have a hard time letting go of the OT. I personally rank this movie third after ESB and ANH. TFA has wonderful elements to it, and I really enjoyed watching it the three times I saw it in the theater. I loved Rey and Finn, while Han/Chewie stole the show and broke my heart at the same time. I loved little BB8. I loved the ending.

BUT...the OT came out during my formative years, and the movie I loved most of all for the last 35 years has been Empire Strikes Back. It really comes across as a dark and desperate movie, but the emotional heft of it really resonates with me. No movie I've ever seen since has replicated the romantic uplift I felt when Han and Leia kissed nor the sadness when Han was frozen in carbonite. And the "I am your father" line from Darth Vader was shattering. ANH, of course, I loved for being the original movie to start it all--it was fresh and new when it came out, (even if Lucas used old Campbellian tropes and riffed off of Hidden Fortress, it was still fresh and new for most audiences in the US)--and one of the gripes I had about TFA was that it so closely mirrored the beats in ANH. In a sense, I understand that Abrams was trying to bridge a generational gap and bring in new viewers to the fold while introducing new characters who would carry the baton forward, and he felt the best way to do so would be with a somewhat familiar framework, but in doing so, he also destroyed a lot of the hope and optimism the OT generated to create a new struggle for the next generation. Instead of moving forward, this movie made me feel like I was on a karmic wheel, as if "all this has happened before and all this will happen again". Other than Han's death, I didn't feel nearly as much emotional resonance this time around, maybe because it really was retreading on familiar ground instead of breaking new ground. I think for this reason, I can't place TFA above ESB or ANH, because I feel it's standing on the shoulders of giants and can never really stand on its own.

 

I mean I go back and forth on whether I prefer ANH or this. It's definitely no lower than third however.

 

I grew up with the prequels, and as I got older, I cared more and more about plot, and character growth, effects, etc. Before TFA, the OT was untouchable in my opinion. I even rewatched all 6 movies before I went to the theater. I'm not going to speak of the prequels. ANH was better than I remembered, Empire was about the same (near-perfect), and ROJ worse. Then I saw TFA. I've never been sucked into a movie like that. I didn't look away from the screen once. Afterwards, I struggled with how to think of it. For about a week, I couldn't really find words to describe how much I loved it. But as soon as I compared it to the OT, I felt really torn.
My bias was exactly what you asked: 'AGAINST praising this movie too much'
Once I realized that, I finally was able to rank it.
1: Tie: Empire Strikes Back-The Force Awakens
2: A New Hope
3: Return of the Jedi
Once I realized my own bias was limiting my thought process, I thought differently, and enjoyed the film even more.

 

I have no clue of what is was like to be alive in the 70's. These are obviously just my opinions and I understand that your age will have a huge impact on how you feel about certain Star Wars movies.

 

I agree with your ranking, and I place ESB and TFA as a tie for the best of the series. I hate almost everything about the PT, as it was so bad that it introduced concepts that even mess up some things in the OT. One thing that really makes me LOVE The Force Awakens is that it could go practically anywhere, plotwise. Even as the hype for the PT churned, the whole story was leading to a known conclusion. That's the least of it's flaws of course, but TFA does not have that problem either.

The fact that SW has broken free from Lucas also frees SW of the limitations (creative, schedule, etc) that come from having one person calling all the shots. SW is free, with an open road before it and as many stories to tell as can be imagined. For that reason, TFA couldn't have done a better job of laying the foundation for what's to come.

 

I was born in 1976. The OT were the most visually impressive Sci-fi/fantasy movies ever made for a REALLY long time. I'd say nothing rivaled them for at least 20 years after release.

I still think they mostly compare favorably against modern movies of this type (especially TESB)

 

If anything the reviews threads suggest the opposite. Many times fun trumped a sizeable list of perceived flaws. Let's see how we​

feel when we're even half as familiar with this film as we are with the originals.​

 

I think it'll hold up fine because the characters are great and do a good job connecting with the audience. Plot niggles can be annoying, but IMO characters I don't care about are what really hurts a movie

 

I understand that the leap in special effects was much greater for the OT than it can be for any movie today. I think this is one of the many reasons that Lucas failed with the PT. He focused too much on trying to revolutionize the special effects, specifically CGI, and lost track of other things like story, acting, dialogue and casting just to name a few. Jar Jar was certainly very "real" looking...in fact he looked more real than Jake Lloyd

 

TFA is my third favorite. I just found the chemistry between the actors to be outstanding, much as it was for ESB. Star Wars I rank higher because it has some of the same plot points but it is a leaner, meaner, yet more effectively plotted film. It is better plotted than TFA. But it is not better acted IMO.

But it came first and helped set the standard by which all the others are and will be judged.

So it deserves the second spot to me.

TFA is a more constantly well made and acted film then ROTJ. ROTJ has one of the finest moments in the Saga with the Luke/Vader and Emperor showdown.

But it also has nearly another movie in Jabba's palace and it has the Ewoks.

So it is below TFA.

 

Jabba's palace is interesting. It's essentially the tentacle alien scene from TFA, but even longer. I think that people give it a pass because Jabba is a cool character, there's some nice action, and the visuals are nice. But, they did basically spend almost the entire first act on a subplot that, once it's done, is never mentioned or referenced again and has no bearing on the rest of the movie. You maybe could have cut the "rescue Han" thing down quite a bit, and used that time for more plot-relevant stuff.

 

What they could have done is split ROTJ into two whole movies and had Pt. 1 deal with Han's rescue and Luke's resuming his training on Dagobah.

Pt. 2 deals with Vader/Emperor and Luke confronting one another and the final showdown between Rebels and Empire.

ROTJ feels like those two movies in one.

 

I think people give it a pass because it's the only time we get to see Luke totally throw down as a Jedi

 

It's Luke throwing down and it has some cool new environments and characters. You both are right. I loved it when I was ten.

But, it really is like a separate movie.

 

True, I just kind of wish that it were in a scene that was more relevant. Like on Endor perhaps?

 

I actually love the jabba scene but would agree about five to 10 minutes needed to be trimmed off of it. I would have cut the whole ewok subplot and the horrible c3p0 is god joke, and instead have focused on luke with yoda and han and leia and the rebels developing the plan of attack, and luke just head right to the death star in his x wing. with luke reveling that he and leia are siblings in the last 5 to 10 minutes of the film

 

ESB ends by setting up that they're returning to Tatooine at some point to rescue Han. Luke also promises to return to complete his training under Yoda.

You can make a movie out of those two things alone. That and something for the Empire and Vader to do against the rebels.

Have the first part of the film have Lando and Chewie tracking down the bounty hunter. Luke is finishing his training on Dagobah and Yoda is scolding him for not listening. Act 2 is the plan to rescue Han going awry, and Luke reaching a turning point in his training. Act 3 is the heroes, Lando and Chewie and Leia in peril. Luke has to and rescue them. This is an inverted ending to ESB where Lukes goes off to rescue his friends and they have to rescue him. Now, he has learned from his mistakes.

That sets up the more mature Luke we see in the third act of ROTJ when he confronts Vader and the Emperor.

 

I agree with this post.

For the most part, if we look at the individual parts of TFA - the acting, the dialogue, the cinematography - it holds up with the best of Star Wars.

But if we look at the sum of the parts, TFA can't hold a candle to ANH or ESB. Whether its better or worse than ROTS is up for debate. I prefer the latter, tbf.

 

IMO, the thing that prevents TFA from unequivocally beating ESB (and ANH) is a pacing that's simply too frenetic. An extra ten minutes of breathing time, and I believe this could have been the absolute best of the saga.

 

I think this a fair assessment but I'm willing to let it go as I think there was so much to cover in this film. Marrying the old with the new whilst resetting a wounded franchise was a huge task and I think JJ did a more than an admirable job of making a great stand alone film and laying great foundations for Rian Johnson to build upon in 8.

 

Oh, I certainly let it go, as TFA is, I believe, the Star Wars film I might enjoy the most. I absolutely love the film.

I just think it barely missed being the unrivaled leader of the saga.

 

agreed on just barely missing the mark, it is my 2nd favorite of the franchise, but one thing I do love is the pacing there is about 5 scenes I truly adore and the movie moves so fast that one of my favorite scenes is always right around the corner, and I would argue that the movie does slow down for certain emotional beats such as kylo and ren having the force battle of wills as he is interrogating her. kylo and han's reunion, and finn's wanting to run away from his problems at Maz's castle