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Saga could we say that palpatine is luke's grandfather?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Axle-Starweilder, Apr 18, 2011.

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  1. Axle-Starweilder

    Axle-Starweilder Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jan 6, 2005
    so i was just out in my backyard having a star wars moment and i got to thinking; could the emperor be, in some weird way, luke's grandfather? i know that it's uncertain in a number of ways and i've never read the plageius book (is it even out yet?). but it seems like the emperor is in some way responsible for the strange in-vitro force-fertilization of schmi skywalker. there was no father and all of that. i apologize in advance for spelling and grammatical errors here, but i'm seriously wondering. was all that stuff in the second deathstar not unlike a twisted father son picnic?
     
  2. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    If you like it to be that way. There's no confirmation one way or the other I know of.
     
  3. halibut

    halibut Ex-Mod star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 27, 2000
    I think he's more of a creepy uncle.
     
  4. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Yeah, I'm not buying the "Plagueis or Palpatine impregnated Shmi" theory until I absolutely have to.
     
  5. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 29, 2000
    It's deliberately left up in the air in the films as to whether Palpatine created Anakin or not.
     
  6. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008

    If Palpatine had created Anakin, why did he ignore the latter on Coruscant, until Anakin proved his strength with the Force during the Battle of Naboo?
     
  7. drg4

    drg4 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 30, 2005
    I like to believe that Palpatine is both Anakin's metaphysical father and keenly aware of how to "keep people from dying." (The latter ability reserved for himself, of course.)

    There's not much to substantiate either fancy, but I can't resist the possibility that Palpatine is the godhead of Star Wars--impregnating virgins via Spirit even as he extends his lifespan so as to outlast Maul, Dooku, Vader and Luke.

     
  8. Sinistron

    Sinistron Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2010
    What?
     
  9. Axle-Starweilder

    Axle-Starweilder Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jan 6, 2005
    you've never had a starwars moment in your back yard?
     
  10. T-R-

    T-R- Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 13, 2003
    We don't know that he did ignore Anakin on Corusant, we only see him interact with Anakin on Naboo. That doesn't mean he ignored Anakin at all.
     
  11. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

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    Jan 5, 2011
    You can say it if you want, I don't care.
     
  12. halibut

    halibut Ex-Mod star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 27, 2000
    Then don't post, CT
     
  13. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

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    Jan 5, 2011
    :confused:

    He asked, I'm giving him permission.
     
  14. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

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    May 26, 2005
    You'll never have to. No EU book will make any difference.

    What some people don't seem to understand is that any Sith ability to create life and Shmi's miraculous pregnancy need not be connected. Its perfectly possible that the will of the force, independent of the sith did create Anakin (as was first assumed) and that Plageuis could also artificially create life by the means Palpatine explained. Palpatine might have been created by Plageuis for all we know. Maul could have been created by Palpatine. Anakin might well have been an unknown and unexpected entity to them.
     
  15. T-R-

    T-R- Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 13, 2003
    True, it could be 2 independent phenomena, except for:

    1.) we know GL's original intent was the Sith did it, and he never put anything in the movies that negates/overrides this
    2.) Palpatine looks right at Anakin when he says create life
    3.) The DVD commentary says it is "important information on the origins of Anakin"

    If the Plaguies novel comes straight out and confirms it that can leave no doubt.

    What some people don't seem to understand is that any Sith ability to create life does not negate or impact Anakin and the prophecy of the chosen one at all. On the contrary, it actually fits perfectly with what we know of the phophecy. A being created by midi-chlorians brings balance to the Force by destroying the Sith.

    Sith manipulate the midi-chlorians to create Anakin. Check
    Anakin destroys the Sith. Check
    The Force is brought into balance. Check
     
  16. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

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    May 26, 2005
    But he also removed anything that confirmed it. He clearly had enough doubt. Original intent counts for nothing in SW. Vader wasn't originally intended to have been Luke's father.
    One could argue that Palpatine is playing Anakin throughout the whole movie. His intention to imply a question in Anakin's mind would make sense whether what he alludes to is true or not. Regardless, what he is saying still significant. His decision to emphasise this by looking straight at Anakin might be disconnected from any implication about his origin. He's talking to Anakin. Its natural he'll look at him at least once. Were Anakin across the room and Palpatine talking to someone else, and Palpatine emphasised his words by looking to Anakin at that exact moment, I might concede the weight of the implication. But I really don't think its all that substantial as it sits.
    The commentary proves nothing. Everyone has their own interpretation. Even if your interpretation doesn't match GL's, it doesn't make it wrong, because he leaves it open. He could have closed all speculation very easily. He chose not to (and with good reason)
    Only if your preference is to take everything in the EU as "canon". You don't have to. I mean, I don't take the Holiday Special as canon and I'm sure Lucas had just as much involvement in that as he did the Plageuis novel. Lucas made a conscious decision to keep Anakin's origin a mystery. As he says himself, the EU is a completely independent thing which need not have anything to do with the movies themselves.
    I agree. It doesn't change that aspect. But there are other reasons one might prefer to think Anakin's conception was strictly the will of the force, without any Sith meddling.
     
  17. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Apr 26, 2009
    In earlier drafts of ROTS, Palpatine states quite clearly that he was responsible for Anakin's conception, & even says, "You could think of me as your father."

    It is also stated by Palpatine that Dooku arranged the kidnapping of Shmi by the Tuskens (possibly a lie on Palps' part, perhaps not).

    However...

    These ideas were removed, & one must consider just why. Did GL merely want them to be implied, yet still true, or did he ultimately not consider them to be true?

    I've yet to see anything that could be considered definitive. Personally, I think they were removed because they're just a little bit too neat & lack credibility if stated explicitly in the story. There's nothing in the final product that contradicts them, but nor is there anything which really supports them beyond subjective interpretation. I'd be inclined to ignore them unless GL feels inclined to elaborate, & I don't think he will. For me, the dialogue between Palpatine & Anakin works so much better if it's possible that a great deal of what Palpatine says is a lie or, even better, truths told in such a way to cause Anakin to leap to the wrong conclusions.
     
  18. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    I think it was wise to remove (if it was removed) Dooku being responsible for Shmi's death. It doesn't feel right, too many coincidences.
    About Palpatine being Anakin's creator though, I'm not sure what I believe. Keeping it up in the air was a good move. The mystery of it is appealing. I don't think it being true would ruin the idea of Anakin being the chosen one. It still means he was conceived by midichlorians, whether it was an accident or not. Also Palpy is still a father figure for Anakin either way, and saving Sidious over Mace means the same thing, either way.
    I also agree that some of the things Palpatine tells Anakin being lies works. For example, "In your anger, you killed her."
    It makes Vader's betrayal of the Emperor at the end of ROTJ more satisfying, that the thing that sealed Anakin's fate was based on a lie.
     
  19. T-R-

    T-R- Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 13, 2003
    True, but unlike Vader as father, GL never put anything in the movies that negates/overrides this. There's a difference when original intent is made obsolete by something that overrides it (such as Vader=Anakin) and when original intent is changed from being explicit to being sublte. See below for why it was changed.

    The difference is that creation via sith meddling is mentioned in the films and creation by the will of the Force isn't. Will of the Force is in the same realm as Shmi lying about there being no father. Both are possible, but neither are mentioned as possibilities in the films.

    GL said the explicitly stated dialogue between Palpatine and Anakin was removed because it was too reminiscent of the ESB reveal. His words.

    Therefore, his original intent remains, albiet of a more subtle nature.
     
  20. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

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    May 26, 2005
    Except for "he betrayed and murdered your father"... which we know was not meant to mean what it was ultimately retconned to be.
    Though crucially, not in direct relation to Anakin.
    Not via will of the force, I grant you. But creation via midichlorians, independent of the Sith, is discussed and quoted as a possibility.
    But thats the thing. Any intent remains as much as ambiguity. Nothing overrides the original intention that Anakin suspected Obi-Wan had a thing for Padme. But one doesn't have to invest anything in it from what's left in the film. Were Anakin to say something like "Are you saying my own creation was down to Plageuis?", with Palpatine responding "How else would you explain it?", I might buy into what you're saying a little more. Even then, there are several ways Lucas could have made the reveal and the confirmation different from Vader's, while still as absolute. But the idea regarding Anakin himself is never presented in any clear form. Its muddy at best (with dots joined by those who want to join them). It really isn't prominent enough for me... not in storytelling terms at least.

    As we've discussed, there are other issues at large. Palpatine has reason to play Anakin - to make him feel more aligned to the Sith and less sympathetic to the Jedi (which could explain the perceived hints). We can't invest certainty in anything he says, because he has a much wider agenda to pursue (look at what he says about the Jedi moving against the senate). Lucas has never once come out and said Palpatine or The Sith conceived Anakin (which he could do if he wanted it to be a known thing, while keeping the reveal out of the film). The truth is, we don't know... and we're not meant to know. One interpretation is no more valid than the next. I know which I prefer, sure. But I'm not gonna shoot anyone down who thinks the opposite (only those who argue their preferred notion as more valid or certain than the next). I think its rather beautiful as it is, and to have confirmation either way would perhaps strip away some of the appeal. I think Lucas knows this too and it was likely a factor in his decision to both keep quiet on the subject and leave it open-ended in the film.
     
  21. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    But in his presence and with a visible nod in his direction. Not proof of any kind, of course, but certainly suggestive.

    Creation via the WOTF is what is implied by Qui-Gon's suggestion of creation by the midichlorians, since we know of the relationship between the midichlorians and the WOTF. These are essentially the same thing.

    If EU confirmation is what you're looking for, it was already "confirmed" in Vader: The Ultimate Guide. For various reasons I doubt the Plagueis novel will offer confirmation.

    The commentary should have merit. The relevant comments come from the producer of the trilogy, not some random fan. Since Lucas has the power to determine what ends up on the commentary and what does not, it stands to reason that the material on the commentary has his seal of approval and is thus reflective of his intent.
     
  22. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Apr 26, 2009
    What's the exact wording of the DVD commentary on the matter?
     
  23. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

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    May 26, 2005
    I didn't say the commentary had no merit. But it doesn't really supersede or prove anything in the context of the movies themselves. The movies have to exist as their own authority. As I recall, Lucas also allowed some derogatory comments (albeit in humourous fashion) from Carrie Fisher on the ROTJ commentary. That they are left in doesn't mean he agrees with them. McCallum might have his own interpretation of the Palpatine conversation, just as you or I might (his role as a producer on the film doesn't give his interpretation more credibility than ours, I don't think... not when alternatives are no more or less supported). Even if Lucas came right out and said that its his own interpretation, one doesn't have to follow it, because its neither shown nor revealed in the film. In the end, The Sith being behind Anakin's creation is no more or less hinted at than the idea Yoda was Obi-Wan's master from what's said in ESB (and as it turned out, original intentions aside, this was never the case). People can form their own conclusions regarding "he could influence the midichlorians to create life", just as people did when Obi-Wan said "was I any different when you taught me?", but it doesn't confirm anything, however implied one thinks it is.

    If you watch ROTS for the first time and have be told its definitively one way or the other after the film has finished, that only makes it look like poor filmmaking, in my opinion. What excuses it here is that its deliberately left open-to-interpretation, without definitive conclusion, unless one seeks it or has already formed their own.

    One cant deny Lucas' original intent was to make it seem conclusive that the Sith had a hand in Anakin's creation. But as I said earlier, original intent counts for little to nothing in a finished film. We can only analyse and interpret what's left (of which, neither theory is more or less supported in this matter). To debate any certainty on the subject seems daft, if you ask me. All we can have is our own beliefs and stand up for their feasibility.
     
  24. T-R-

    T-R- Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2003
    I disagree with this. What is said is that he may be conceived by the midi-chlorians. No where is it said that the force can manipulate the midis, only communicate through them. However, it is said a sith can manipulate the midis.

    The WotF involved in Anakin's creation or the creation of life is a fan idea because of the statement the boy had no father and fans drew parallels with Jesus and other divine births.

    RM: It's such a creepy little scene. It's just so, so bold, and so audacious, to put it in this kind of setting and having this wierd blob in front of you, music playing, and all of this really essential information in terms of the origins of Anakin.

    Really? Let's look at what's left shall we? We'll see that only one theory is supported.

    TPM - It's possible Anakin was conceived by the midi-chlorians
    RotS - a Sith could manipulate the midi-chlorians in order to create life.

    Nobody EVER says ANYTHING about the possibility of the Force or the will of the force creating life in anyway, or even being able to manipulate the midis for that matter. On the contrary, life is said to create the force.

    Force creating Anakin on its own is justas valid as Shmi lying about there being no father.
     
  25. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

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    May 26, 2005
    I would argue we do have the possibility that the midichlorians created Anakin, independent of any meddling (Sith or otherwise) because such a scenario is presented clearly in the film - were it not a possibility and could only be the result of another's intervention, questions would be asked as to who could have been responsible for influencing the midichlorians in such a way, just as questions were asked as to who could have been responsible for emptying information from the Jedi archives in AOTC. The Jedi and Qui-Gon do not for a second dismiss or rule out that Anakin's conception could have been a purely natural event, independent of outside interference. So it is supported in that sense. Yes, we are also presented with the possibility in ROTS that the Sith know how to influence the midichlorians to create life - not that they definitely did so, remember... merely that knowledge on how to do it and thus the ability to do it was available. So both are supported to a certain degree, in my opinion. But neither are fully supported.

    That Anakin was created by the midichlorians is fully supported (unless Shmi is lying, which of course we've no reason to assume she might be - unlike Palpatine, though thats another issue). However, how exactly those midichlorians came to create Anakin specifically is unknown and never once discussed.

    EDIT: To clarify something else - its my understanding that Lucas' original intention was to make it said that Palpatine himself "arranged for" Anakin's conception, not Plageuis. Therefore, to argue that the hint Plageuis was behind Anakin's conception is present, and that by way of this, Lucas' original intent remains, is not quite as reasonable statement as it might otherwise seem, in my opinion.
     
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