Could you forgive Vader?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth_Sidious143, Feb 14, 2003.

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  1. Darth_Sidious143 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 1
    I was just wondering, after Vader/Anakin turned back to the light, would he go to Heaven or Hell (for the purposes of this post, we are going to 'assume that there's a God, Heaven, and a Hell)?

    Reasons:

    Heaven-
    He saved Luke
    He destroyed Palpatine
    He saved many more lives by destryoing evil

    Hell-
    He caused the death of Billions
    He caused people to suffer

    Also, do you belive that killing billions and then saving 1 (Luke) is enough to get into Heaven?

    What would you do?
    I personaly would forgive him for his sins. I do not believe that truely deep down Anakin knew the differnce between right and wrong because of all of his childhood experiences and his emotional problems (ie:being taken from his mother, Padme) I think that he is just unknowingly confused about good and evil.

  2. rpeugh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    Good thread topic.

    David Brin has an essay about this at www.davidbrin.com .. One of his big problems with SW is that Vader is forgiven just because he saves Luke. But I think he is looking at it the wrong way and missing the point. He makes a bad analogy to Hitler to try to prove his point. I would tell Brin this: It's not like Anakin gets away clean. I mean, HE DOES DIE. How is it so unbeleiveable that he could be forgiven and could stand by the Jedi with his face restored? SW is not the first story to have this. Remember the two criminals who died at the cross with Jesus? They went to Heaven with him even though they lived a long life of crime. They were sincere about repenting for their sins. Now, whether or not you are a Christain, (which I am not), this is a story just as much as SW is a story. So yes, I beleive Anakin would go to Heaven, b/c he seems very sincere about knowing what he did was wrong.
  3. JediKnightOB1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2003
    star 5
    Anakin does bring balance to the force. He fulfils the prophacy. I like this thread, I too have studied religion.

    How about the people who Jesus healed? He said to one blind man go and wash your eyes in the waters. He did and was healed. Jesus said "Your Faith has made you whole."

    People don't know how powerful their faith can be. Just believe and meditate on these things.

    The jedi believe... Remeber when Luke was stuck on Dagobah and he was trying to use the force to get his X-Wing out of the mud.

    Luke could not grasp the simple fact that the size of the problem was not the issue, it was how he dealt with the size of the problem.

    Yoda, got the X-Wing out of the mud and Luke said "I don't believe it."

    Yoda said, "That, is why you fail."

    Anakin also couldn't grasp the fact he could not force the "Force."


    Jesus says, "May your yes, be a yes, and your no be a no."

    Yoda says, "Do or Do Not, there is no try."

    Remember, that whatever you believe in, you must have faith.
  4. dArTh_wenley Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2001
    star 5

    Anakin had been accepted by Obi-Wan and Yoda's ghost.

    All was forgiven and forgotten.
  5. Sophita Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    He caused the death of Billions-When did he do this?

    Sure, I would forgive him. He fought for his ideals and he was an honest man. He only commited one of the seven deadly sins. :p

    He just made a few bad choices in life-happens to us all really. His just happened to have castrophic consequences. :(
  6. D_Lowe Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 6
    Billions? I thought it was millions. Either way, that is still a lot of deaths. Anyway, Anakin/Vader brought balance back to the Force. I say forgive him.
  7. chaos9001 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 2
    i dont think its the issue of what he did or anything, i think it is where he stood in the force. when he saved luke and destroyed Palps, he not only brought balance to the force. he brought balance to himself. He let go of all the hate and pride that had been hindering him his entire life, and gave his life for his sons. he died with a free heart
  8. Darth_Sidious143 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 1
    He allowed Tarkin to destroy Alderan which presumably had billions people on it.
  9. vladimir_imp Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2002
    star 2
    This is a topical discussion with the current moral debate on the situation in Iraq. I know we don't like to bring real world events into these discussions about 'films', and it is not my intention to redirect the discussion onto real events.

    I would however like to draw an analogy between Vader destroying a individual to destroy a regime, and the similar intentions towards Iraq.

    It is impossible to measure the number of lives that might have been lost due to the Empire continuing, that Vader in effect 'saved' by killing the Emperor. Equally we cannot know if more lives were lost in the events after this.

    Like in Iraq - will more lives be lost by fighting a war, or allowing a regime to continue?

    So we're left with judging a person's actions on their intentions. To a certain extent, Anakin / Vader was drawn to the dark side because he wanted order. I think we'll see in episode III that his turn is a result of best intentions. In that respect, Vader's turn from dark side to light side in ROTJ was not so much a decision to do good, but to understand that he was on the wrong side. In other words, he might be believing as Vader, that more lives are saved by their control of the galaxy, than would be the case if the old republic was restored. Does he believe that Palpatine's motives are as honourable?

    To answer the question of forgiveness, it may be the case that Anakin's intentions were always good, but his decisions were incorrect up until the point of redemption. Indeed, are we judged on the results of our actions or the motives behind them?

    Interesting debate!
  10. Anakinisthechosenone Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 1
    It would be a hard descision b/c he did all those things but i agree Anakin's intention's were always good... they just had bad consequences. But i would forgive him b/c if u don't forgive people and just horde that hate for them then ur just cheating yourself and becoming bitter. He repented before he died and was sincere about it and like someone said earlier abotu the criminals on the cross with jesus.. he did that adn he went to heaven and so i think that Anakin would've gone to Heaven.
  11. Master_Viking_May Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2003
    star 1
    This depends greatly on our own point of view and belief. I don´t see Anakin/Vader´s doings so two-sided. It´s more colourful than that.
  12. Jedi_Learner Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2002
    star 5
    Good question. I don't think I would be able to forgive him, because of all the people he killed. He did nothing to stop Tarkin from destroying Alderaan. He will go to hell. :(
  13. Vanthorne_OX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2002
    star 3
    I could forgive him. That's why the end of ROTJ settles fine with me. I'm also glad Anakin is portrayed as a boy in TPM, because that helps show that he wasn't always so bad and he had good intentions. I like the question vladimir_imp raises about being judged on the results of our actions or the motives behind them. For me, I think it's a bit of both since the intentions and the actions bring about the final results. It's like an addition equation, intention + actions = final results, not just actions = final results. I think that's why it is easier to forgive Anakin, because he initially trained to be a Jedi with good intentions.
  14. Yomin_Carr Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2002
    star 4
    Ideally I hope I would have the moral fiber to forgive him, but I doubt I actually do. So I would like to forgive him, but I don't think I could. :(
  15. Kwenn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2001
    star 5
    Anakin redeemed himself in the end. If he were to have survived RotJ, I don't think anyone in the galaxy - save Luke - would have forgiven him, but if you are truly sorry you get into Heaven...

    I read an amazing fan-fic like this; Anakin survives, and has to hide with Luke from the New Republic, who want to execute him for his crimes. It's fairly new, on TF.N's fan-fic section somewhere.
  16. NiktosRule Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2001
    star 4
    I could not forgive Vader. The one good deed he did at the end of his life does not make up for all the bad things he did. On good deed does not make up for everything he did as Vader.
  17. ForceHeretic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    star 4
    I wouldn't forgive Vader, intentions mean nothing, actions speak louder then words. Why he killed millions of people is not the issue, the issue is he killed millions of people, there is no justification for it when you are the agressor, as Vader was

    And it doesn't matter how many lives he saved by killing the Emperor, because he would have saved countless more had he not chosen to help the Emperor in the first place. One act of good does not undo countless acts of evil

    And as for the earlier comparison to the two theives who were crucified along with christ, there's one major difference between them, they didn't murder anyone, they were theives. Murder is an unforgivable sin, the only unforgivable sin because you cannot take back what you did, you can't apologize to the one you transgressed against, it's done and done

    While Vader may have been accepted into the force because he saved Luke and killed the Emperor and brought balance to the force, I myself could not forgive him, if I were in Lukes position it would be different because Luke is his son and blood is thicker than water, but if I were the average citizen in the GFFA I wouldn't


    People agree, Vader was a jerk
  18. DamonD Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    star 6
    Vader was a jerk. Anakin wasn't.

    I think Ep3 will provide a lot of illumination over this issue, as we finally see what elements turn Anakin to the Dark Side for good (or at least for 20-odd years).

    We also mustn't forget that turning your back on the Dark Side and returning to the Light is an INCREDIBLY difficult thing to do. "Forever will it dominate your destiny" is spot-on, it took a tremendous act of faith from Anakin's own son to help turn him back in the end.
  19. Darth_Sidious143 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 1
  20. MetalGoldKnight Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 4
    "And it doesn't matter how many lives he saved by killing the Emperor, because he would have saved countless more had he not chosen to help the Emperor in the first place. One act of good does not undo countless acts of evil."

    Yes, but wouldn't a lot of those people have died anyway by the Empire's hand? If you really look at it, Vader was nothing more then the Emporer's enforcer, and at the very most he helped the Empire kill people faster. Without him destroying Palpatine, though, the Empire would have continued to reign on. So in the end, he more then redeemed himself- he became the savior of an entire galaxy.
  21. Sophita Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    Darth_Sidious143:

    He allowed Tarkin to destroy Alderan which presumably had billions people on it.

    Jedi_Learner:

    . He did nothing to stop Tarkin from destroying Alderaan.

    Tarkin outranked him, though. There was nothing he could do about it. I got the feeling from ANH he not only opposed the Death Star ("Don't be too proud of this technological terror..."), but also the use of it as a way to extract the information from Leia ("You see Lord Vader, she can be reasonable.").

    (Apologies if the quotes aren't quite right-I haven't seen ANH in ages.)

    Also, considering it hurts Obi-Wan when Alderaan is destroyed, isn't it logical to assume it hurts Vader as well?

    ForceHeretic:

    Why he killed millions of people is not the issue, the issue is he killed millions of people

    When does he kill millions of people? There is no evidence (in the movies at least, don't know about the EU) pointing to that unless you include Alderaan, which, IMO, is far far more Tarkin's issue than it is Vader's.

    Murder is an unforgivable sin

    Playing devil's advocate...There are a lot of shades of grey in that though. If you kill someone who fights on the other side in the war, is that unforgiveable? If you shoot someone who is physically threatening you, is that unforgivable? If you murder someone who is attempting to hurt a member of your family, is that unforgivable? It's not exactly something you can just label good or bad.

    While Vader may have been accepted into the force because he saved Luke and killed the Emperor and brought balance to the force, I myself could not forgive him, if I were in Lukes position it would be different because Luke is his son and blood is thicker than water, but if I were the average citizen in the GFFA I wouldn't

    I think his redemption in ROTJ is more of a personal one than a public one. I'm sure if Vader had lived past RotJ he would have been tried for war crimes and executed.
  22. cal_silverstar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2002
    star 4
    If I were Luke, Obi-Wan or Yoda, sure thing I'd forgive him.

    If I were a Rebel grunt or some regular Joe shipyard mechanic that's a different story.
  23. Kwenn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2001
    star 5
    He killed Jedi in the purges, though we don't actually know if we'll see them on film, so we only have sketchy EU info at the minute...but he certainly didn't have anything to do with Alderaan. Tarkin was the commander of the Death Star, Tarkin gave the orders and Tarkin outranked Vader...
  24. Palp_Faction Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 3
    I couldn't forgive Vader, but I could forgive Anakin. It was Anakin who destroyed Palpatine - not Vader. Vader was the dark side of Anakin who had the blood of millions on his hands. It was Vader who tortured Leia and sliced Obi-wan in half. I think Ep3 will reveal that Vader isn't just Anakin going by another name. Rather, Anakin is taken over by the dark side within him. The good that was within him is suppressed and the evil takes control.

    It was Anakin who found the strength to break the manacles of the dark side thereby freeing himself from the persona of Vader and enabling him to fulfill the prophecy.
  25. PaplooTheory Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2001
    star 5
    Good question. I'd have to say that I probably could forgive him, but never forget about the bad things he's done.

    As for if God would forgive him, yes. He truly was sorry for the life he had lived and was able to finally, if only for a moment, turn it back around.
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