Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth_Sidious143, Feb 14, 2003.
Redemption does not necessarily invoke forgiveness.
I would think I would want to forgive him. But I couldn't ever forgive him because I would never trust him after all the crimes he commited in helping Palpatine.
He used his powers for destruction of life. He wanted desperately to lead his son down the same path.
Vader was a terrible, horrible monster. The perfect villian he was ment to always be.
In answer to the question: "Could you forgive Vader?".......my answer is no.
Remember the question was "Could you forgive Vader?". It wasn't "Could you forgive Anakin?"
To me, those are two different characters. Likely because I grew up watching the OT for 20 plus years, before I ever seen Anakin Skywalker.
In death, I could probably forgive. But if he lived it would have been much harder because of all the pain and suffering that he caused.
I'm not sure I can forgive him- still I'm quite sure it wouldn't depend on ME if he may go to Heaven...
As others said before me someone doesn't go to Heaven because he/ she has more "good" points than "bad" points - afterlife is better not decided by statistical anylisis... Imagine it: Paply's evil life is equal to 130,000 good people's life, so if he killed 130,001 people he cannot be forgiven, but he killed only 129,999 he can get forgiveness... It's a bit ridiculous.
Don't get me wrong- I'm a Vader fan (oh, he's awesome ) and if he had lived after ROTJ and I had been there in GFFA (wishful thinking ) I would have visited him in jail or something, I wouldn't have been his enemy... but it's not my place to forgive him what he did to OTHERS. If he had hurt me, or someone close to me - well, I don't know if I could have forgiven him- it would have taken time, sure... Maybe after having known his true and complete story I'd forgive him anyway...
It is not for me to judge forgiveness to this redeemed old man.
It is easy for an outsider like every viewer of the Star wars films to make that judgement but it is not theirs to judge. The Force, Luke, Yoda and Obi-Wan made their judgement and they all forgave him.
And it isn't even the matter of what he does that begs the question of forgiveness but the fact that does he repent his evil deeds?
You can't undo the evil done in your actions by one good act but your repentence towards your wrong doings can bring about forgiveness.
And maybe thats why he was forgiven by his peers and most importantly by his creator, the Force.
Forgiveness must be based on the true extent of the persons regret. This is sometimes difficult to analize.
The larger the crime the larger and deeper the regret and sadness must be shown by actions to back that up.
Vader had the actions in the end, I hope we see why he said "I MUST obey my master" in E3, and then went against that, sacrificing his own life, the biggiest action a person can show that they regret what they did in the past.
Also we have an emtionally damaged character with huge powers this is a variable as well.
The extended confession scene in ATOC says a lot.
I think nobody can make the call on whether he should be forgiven yet till they see E3.
To what extent was he tricked and or betrayed, remember Lucas said that after E3 is done we will feel sorry for Anakin/Vader
So I reserve judgement for now.
The people who are least likely to forgive him, are the people who are more likely to end up like vader himself. He was consumed by hatred himself and not letting go. That is the moral of star wars. Forgivess is good. Revenge(no matter how justified is bas(tusken scene)
I couldn't forgive Vader, but I could forgive Anakin. It was Anakin who destroyed Palpatine - not Vader. Vader was the dark side of Anakin who had the blood of millions on his hands. It was Vader who tortured Leia and sliced Obi-wan in half. I think Ep3 will reveal that Vader isn't just Anakin going by another name. Rather, Anakin is taken over by the dark side within him. The good that was within him is suppressed and the evil takes control.
It was Anakin who found the strength to break the manacles of the dark side thereby freeing himself from the persona of Vader and enabling him to fulfill the prophecy.
Palp_Faction you have said what I have tried to say for a long time. Good post. I
I think forgiveness is out of the question when everything is predestined...Anakin's fate could not been altered in any way because the force wanted it to happen.Anakin suffered enough throughout his life without being able to control it the way he wanted to.He had a task which presented him no other choice than going through all this misery and suffering for him and for others.If i was a god , i would not judge Anakin in any way.
Someone mentioned earlier that they couldn't forgive him because he killed millions and allowed the Empire to kill millions.
Now, assuming that Vader/Anakin are the same character, I (as a non biased outsider looking in) can forgive him. No many how many people he killed or let die, he saved Luke. By saving Luke, he allowed Luke to "Pass on what he learned" Presumably, after ROTJ (I don't believe the EU exists), Luke taught others the way of the force, creating Jedi which SAVED countless lives.
Vader/Anakin saved the Jedi Order.
Definitely, I can forgive Vader. It is not hard to forgive somebody if they truly repent and feel guilt over the evil that they have done in the past.
However, it is a different thing altogether to forget what Vader has done. He caused harm to millions, perhaps billions in the galaxy.
I can forgive, but I cannot forget.
The most important part was that Anakin destroyed the Sith order and doing that he allowed peace to be restored in the galaxy.
I like what rpeugh said. Like the criminals who were crucified with Jesus, one of them asked for forgiveness and Jesus assured him that he would be with him in paradise. That is the amazing thing about Forgiveness and Redemption. No matter what a person has done in the past, be it Vader or anyone, you can always CHANGE your mind and START ANEW. Therefore, no matter
how great the sins, the sinner can be forgiven if they truly want to be, which Vader did. His love for Luke, and Luke's love for his father did in fact save him. Luke forgave him and Vader forgave himself as well.
Similarly, if a person lives a "saintly" life and is good all the time, but one day decides to go mental and force chokes a group of nuns or something...and then they die, they pretty much earn an express check out to the underworld, or whatever hell might be down there. lol. My Mom actually uses this one on me a lot. Saying that if you die while you are doing something really horrible, you go straight down-town. What does everyone else think?
To me, there's a difference between forgiveness and justice. I could forgive Vader. But if he hadn't have died, he should have had to pay the price for his actions, period.
Has anyone seen the case of the woman who ran over her cheating husband with her car here in USA? I'd say it's a good analogy. People feel sorry for her to a degree. It sucks that the guy was cheating on her. She shows tons of remorse and sobbing in the Court room. Everyone understands how horrible it was.
She still got 20 years in jail. And i'd say that was the right thing to do.
As for divine forgiveness? Not my place to comment on that. I can count on one hand how many times i've ever been to church. But by law, Vader should have payed, HEAVILY.
I agree with those who state that no matter your crimes/deeds, if you truly repent and seek forgiveness, it would be given . . .
however, I would also agree with those, like Urgent, who state that the "law of man" also demands justice . . . and as such, had Anakin lived, even though his soul would be saved, he must still pay for his crimes (in the mortal world). . .
Maybe you folks should check out the Darth Vader Trial in the role playing forum, or just click on my name & my view latest post link will take you there.
I am working as Anakin's defense attorney and I strongly believe that my colleagues and I can get him off, so YES he can be forgiven.
If I was on that jury I'd say burn him at the stake
Or hang him
People agree, Vader should get hanged! Or burned
Where is that forum? I'm a legal assistant and i'd love to check it out.
Yes, I could.
I never really "Hated" Vader, partially becuase I knew that he would be redeemed in ROTJ
Its true that Vader committed many terrible crimes, and killed countless innocent people, but if anything, he was puppet. Sidious was really the one calling all the shots, If anyone is to blame for all the carnage, it would be him.
Darth Vader is the biggest hero of the Star Wars saga. In the prequels, the Force is rapidly loosing it`s balance, as the dark side grows stronger. If Anakin did not join Palpatine, Palps he would have ruled alone, and would be able to kill more billions of people than he already had pre-ROTJ. The dark side had to destroyed from within, and Vader did that.
People keep thinking that Vader dies when he talks to Luke... Vader dies right before he turns toward Sidious, and prepares to toss him over.
So Darth is a Altered Ego of Anakin Skywalker, they are the same person, but at the same time two very different people.
I could forgive Anakin, Yes I could.
I could forive Vader too, Yes I could.
If Anakin did join Palpatine, then billions of people will still die by their hand but the difference is that if Luke hadn't been born, then nothing will make Anakin renounce evil and destroy the Emperor because he'll still be helping him maintain control of the universe and kill countless more lives.
I wouldn't forgive him because he was foolish for joining Palpatine in the first place and for not taking his Jedi lessons seriously. He caused too much harm than good throughtout the years as Darth Vader so forgiving him will not change anything and as for the issue on Alderaan's destruction, Vader is suppose to be second-in-command of the entire Empire fleet next to the Emperor so he should outrank Tarkin thus giving him the right to oppose whatever order Tarkin makes which he didn't do when Tarkin blew up Alderaan.
Just because Vader didn't like the Death Star doesn't mean he can ignore what the Empire is doing with it.
I think that Darth Vader does not need forgivness, but that would also depend. If he was the chosen one, that would mean that he had no choice in his actions, and therfore since he did as he was meant to he should not need our forgivness. This is what I believe.
If he was not the Chosen one, which I do not believe, then it would depend if he truly felt sorry for his actions. In the end of RoTJ he is shown with Obi-wan and Yoda, he looks to be at peace with hilself and with his fellow Jedi. In that case, Yes I would forgive him.
"To forgive is an act of compassion. It's not done because people deserve it. It's done because they need it."