Count Dooku questions

1. Did he know Sidious was Palpatine? Did he know his master told someone to kill him in ROTS?

2. Was he leading the seperatists, or was sidious? Everybody thinks that Dooku leads the seperatists in the movie, and it says that in the opening crawl.

Thanks.

 

Question 1. Yes he did. Read ROTS by matthew stover. it gives a great backround on the twos relationship

Question 2. I have no idea

 

I think he thought he was leading the seperatists but he had no real power

 

((2. Was he leading the seperatists, or was sidious? Everybody thinks that Dooku leads the seperatists in the movie, and it says that in the opening crawl.))

I dont know. I think GG was in control of the droid army. Maby Dooku controled GG and the army. and when he died GG took over.

Just a second wasnt Sidious/Palpatine in control of the whol war?

 

Well, the thing is, some of the seperatists leaders report to lord sidious but the republic thinks that dooku is controlling the seperatists.

 

I think GG reported to Dooku.

Dooku was the face of the rebellion, but he was controlled by Sidious.

 

Since Dooku knew who Sidious was, do you think that is why he was shocked when Palpatine told Anakin to kill him?

 

But why was sidious trying to hide then, if Count Dooku, was the face, but sidious was really in charge?

The republic could still know that sidious was controlling the seperatists but not know he was Palpatine.

Also, do the Jedi know that the sith are controlling the seperatists?

 

((Also, do the Jedi know that the sith are controlling the seperatists?))

In TPM the Jedi learned about the Sith. And that was before the war. So yeah i guess the jedi did know.

 

Dooku was indeed the (apparent) leader of the Separatists (in a political sense), while Palpatine was the (apparent) leader of the Republic (in a politcal sense). GG was the leader of the Separatist Army (aka the Droid Army). [To paraphrase C3PO, "Droids leading droids--how perverse!"]. Meanwhile, Yoda was the (apparent) head of the Republic's military.

When Dooku dies, GG was (very temporarily) elevated to the position of effective head of the Separatists--but of course, by that point, it made very little difference. DARTH SIDIOUS, the real leader of both the Republic and the Separatists, was just a stone's throw away from decapitating the rest of the political (read: humanoid) leadership of the Separatists, and consolidating his leadership of the Republic. This was accomplished by executing Order 66, the programming built into apparently every Clone that would have them execute the Republic's military leadership (including Yoda, its head), while simultaneously simply turning off the Droid Army, which would have presumably given GG nothing further to lead (or perhaps even shut him down as well).

WIth the military and political leadership of both sides eliminated, except for him, he could finally emerge from the shadows and become just plain, simple EMPEROR.

 

DarthSkeptical, just how many times did you see the movie? Because you jest ansured all of the questions right then and there.

 

TECHNICALY it is Sid who is controling the army. Dooku is his puppet- having him fight and do all his dirty work. He is Sids eyes and ears.

Good Stuff

 

I still dont understand why he looked shocked when Palpatine told Anikin to kill him. What, didnt he know that Palpatine wanted Anakin to help him rule the Empire.

 

So Sidious is the real leader but Dooku is the apparent one, right?

I still don't see why Sidious had to hide, though, if he was the real leader, he could be known as the real leader without anyone knowing he was really Palpatine.

 

As to why Dooku looked shocked, we can easily read this scene a number of satisfying ways.

Perhaps it's genuine, straight shock. He thought he was going to be the Empire's Number Two guy until he (naturally) died. That's easy enough to understand. To die at the conclusion of a "rescue mission" that Palpatine described to him as "bait" to bring Jedi to the slaughter is also cause for the look of shock. Think Lando: "This deal is getting worse all the time."

Or maybe it's a kind of "resigned shock". He'd bested Anakin so easily in their previous encounter that he naturally thought this was gonna be a cakewalk, especially when he puts Obi-Wan out of action so easily. But now he finds himself on the business end of his own lightsabre he just can't believe it.

Maybe the look Lee gives is more interesting, though.

It could well be a "then the other shoe drops" reality. He knows SIth legend well enough to understand that Sith Apprenticees fight to the death for their positions, and it dawns on him that the "to-the-death" clause is now going to be activated.

Indeed, expanding on this one, he could now realize that Sidious had this planned all along, and that he'd been lied to when he defected to the SIth in the first place. He'd expected to make it to the finish line, but now he understands that this boy is whom Sidious wanted by his side when the Empire was born. In this way, we can read his look as neat foreshadowing for Vader's realizaiton later in the film that he's been sold down the river by Palpatine.

I don't think there's anythng wrong with a more simple "Oh damn, I'm gonna die" interpretation, but it's more fun to think about all the backstory that this one look could convey. The years of work that Dooku has given Palpatine. The endless "wine and cheese" get togethers with annoying Nemodians. The lies sold to him of eventually getting to be the public face of power. Hell, Palpatine probably told him that to make it look like the Republic was going to remain a democracy, he'd step down after the war (at a time when a precondition of surrender was that Dooku would get a seat in the Senate), and, in a grand gesture of conciliation and democratic fair play, nominate Dooku to be his replacement. All of that crap we can read in Lee's tiny look of surprise, when he realizes---now, at the end, when at last he understands--that he was just a training test for a 20-something punk whose arm he easily cut off a few years ago.

Lee's acting choice in that moment is nothing short of brilliant.

 

"I still don't see why Sidious had to hide, though, if he was the real leader, he could be known as the real leader without anyone knowing he was really Palpatine."


I don't think Palpatine wanted them to know that Dooku wasn't the master. Why have them looking for you if you can prevent it? If you read LOE, you can see why that was a potential problem.

 

I still don't see why Sidious had to hide, though, if he was the real leader, he could be known as the real leader without anyone knowing he was really Palpatine.

Nah, he couldn't. Palpatine has to use the Sidious persona. Think about this in real life terms. Could the president of a country really go around engineering a war against his own troops? Wouldn't work, in a democracy. The President of the United States can't even have an affair with an intern without getting hauled in front of Congress. The merest hint of lying about the motivations for the Iraq War had the Prime Minister of England fighting for his political life. One whiff of connection between the Droid Army and the Chancellor's office, and the whole plan would've collapsed over night.

Plus--and this is easy to do because it's necessary to the story that the audience knows who Palpatine really is--you're making a fundamental mistake about the public's knowledge about the Emperor. You're assuming that, because you as an audience member know that the Emperor is evil, the galaxy must, too. Specifically, you might be thinking it's common knowledge that Sidious=Palpatine. Anyone who knows that is dead, or in deep exile, by the end of ROTS. To the average person in the SW galaxy, Palpatine's new appearance is simply because he's been in battle. He's got this plan of his working on so many levels, that he's actually a freakin' war hero to the people. That's why, as Padmé points out, "This is how liberty ends. With thunderous applause."

Almost no one in the galaxy ever makes the connection that Palpatine is anything worse than a politician who might possibly be overstaying his welcome. I'd argue that even major characters like Leia, Lando, and Han (not to mention important leaders like Mon Mothma), end ROTJ understanding that he's a Sith Lord. Hell, Luke doesn't really get it until the lightning bolts come flying out of his fingers. The Rebellion is built entirely on the notion that an Emperor, and maybe specifically THIS Emperor, is bad for democracy. That's all. And sure, that's bad, and worthy of a passionate fight--but it doesn't really scratch the surface as to the threat this guy is.

[Heh, I wrote all this and now I realize I didn't answer your question directly. The reason that Sidious has to hide is because he doesn't really exist, as far as the galaxy at-large is concerned. No one, not even Luke, ever knows his name in the OT. In truth, he was never more than "the Emperor" in the OT, but we know now from the events in Episode III, that Sidious was never a name he used in the OT. He couldn't have. The whole plan was built around slowly circumventing the democratic process, and Sidious wasn't a legal name, so he could hardly have used it in public office. He couldn't just get up and say to people, "Hey everyone! Now there's no Jedi, I wanted to tell you that I'll be your Emperor. And, oh yeah, my real name's Darth Sidious and I'm the Dark Lord of the Sith. Drinks are on me, everyone: Let's toast my new Empire!" There's just no plausible way he could have revealed himself as "Darth Sidious". No story of revelation is gonna make the slightest bit of sense to his constituency-cum-subjects.]

 

What is "LOE"?

 

Labrynth of Evil, sorry.

It was a book that took place from 3 months before ROTS right up to where Palpatine was captured (beginning of ROTS).

 

DarthSkeptical, thanks for that great reply, you posted it while I was typing.

 

As to why Dooku looked surprised,

Assuming he knew Sidious = Palpatine: In LoE, Sidious tells Dooku to go to Coruscant and fight OB1 and Anakin. He says OB1 is of no consequence, but that Dooku must appear to be giving his all to his fight with Anakin. Sidious also tells him that they are only testing Anakin to see if he's useful, and that if the situation changes so that Dooku is in danger, Sidious will insure Dooku avoids any embarrassment.

So, I think Dooku's look was a feeling of surprise and betrayal.

 

>> Almost no one in the galaxy ever makes the connection that Palpatine is anything worse than a politician who might possibly be overstaying his welcome. I'd argue that even major characters like Leia, Lando, and Han (not to mention important leaders like Mon Mothma), end ROTJ understanding that he's a Sith Lord. Hell, Luke doesn't really get it until the lightning bolts come flying out of his fingers. The Rebellion is built entirely on the notion that an Emperor, and maybe specifically THIS Emperor, is bad for democracy. That's all. And sure, that's bad, and worthy of a passionate fight--but it doesn't really scratch the surface as to the threat this guy is. <<

Very good point. Not to mention that most or not all of the Imperial officers didn't know. Or why else the "I find your lack of faith disturbing" scene on DS1? Surely no Imperial officer would've dared ridicule the second most powerful person in the Empire for a quality the supreme leader possessed if they'd known about it?

 

A question that has occured to me,

How different does Sidious look to Palpatine before the whole deal with Mace and reflected lightning?

The TF people have seen Sidious many times, through a hologram and hood up but to me there was still a resemblence and Nute would have gotten a better look.
So does the TF know that Palpatine is Sidious, RotS suggests no, as Nute berates GG for letting Palpatine slip through his grip.
But it is passing strange that Nute never notices the similarity of Sidious and Palpatine.

Regards
Nordom

 

"Assuming he knew Sidious = Palpatine: In LoE, Sidious tells Dooku to go to Coruscant and fight OB1 and Anakin. He says OB1 is of no consequence, but that Dooku must appear to be giving his all to his fight with Anakin"

I don't think that's exactly how it went down. I believe Sidious told Dooku that the main objective was to kill Obi-Wan, as Sidious believed that would complete his fall. I'll have to look up the exact verbiage tonight.

 

1. Yes

2. Sidious

Read Labyrinth of Evil!

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