PT Count Dooku,Sith Lord or freedom fighter?

He was a different type of Sith Lord, what would make one think they are all the same. Of the 4 we see in the 6 films they are all very different to me. Maul seems to have no desire to kill or replace Palpatine like Dooku and Vader does.

 

He pretends to be a freedom fighter, but in reality he's a Sith Lord all the way.

 

personally I think we could be getting a little too caught up in the whole 'yellow sith eyes' debate.
Call me naiive but im pretty sure that isnt what defines someone as a Sith Lord. I also agree that in principle the Separatist movement isnt inherently Evil. Lets face it the republic is a centralized government that does nothing to prevent crime lords and slave owners control systems in the outer rim, whilst its political leaders and aristrocracy enjoy the finer things in life such as trippy bubble operas and lake houses in naboo. Im surprised there wernt more socialist/separatist movements in the outer rim.
Its the fact that the seperatists in this instance are headed by a sith lord and aided by all round tyrannical b#stard Nute Gunray who has an alarming fixation with Padme (maybe he sees her as a representation of Human Supremacy given that her planet had only ever been represented by Humans in the senate, and it wasnt till they needed the Gungans to fight, in order to save the human population in Theed that Gungans had any kind of representation, despite seemingly making up 50% of the planets population. can gungans even vote? lets face it Jar Jar was just a pacifier, I Digress)
Back to the point.Count Dooku is a Sith Lord.
Why? Because he is Darth Sidious' apprentice for a time. He is also known by a Sith name (DarthTyranus) He actively encourages Anakin to use his anger and hate, which is pretty sithy of him. I cant remember the exact quote but im fairly sure in AOTC he talks about being trained in the dark side of the force?
He and Anakin both had a vision (not a literal force vision) of how they wanted things to be. Both turned to the dark side to gain the power needed to execute that vision. Both got so wrapped up in their pursuit of power that they lost sight of why they needed power in the first place.

 

Pretty much this, especially taking 'The Clone Wars' into consideration. I'm sure before he became Sidious' new apprentice that he did things differently, but once he was corrupted by the Darkside he became a Sith Lord.

 

This.

Maul - A perfect instrument of destruction and rage, but is content to be this - an instrument, a weapon for Sidious.
Tyranus - Refined, gentlemanly, charismatic. Has great ambition, and uses the Dark Side to enhance his already formidable stature in The Force.
Sidious - Conniving, ambitious, stays in the shadows, his power lies in using others on his behalf to achieve his goals.A politician Sith.
Vader - Power-hungry, wants to control everything, even life itself.Greedy. Uses the Dark Side like a fist against those who would oppose him.

 

"One of the issues in all of this is the bad guys think they’re good and Lord Sidious thinks he’s bringing peace to the galaxy because there is so much corruption and confusion and chaos going on and now he’s going to be able to straighten everything out which maybe true but the price the galaxy is going to have to pay for it is way too much."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"What drove me to make these movies is that this is a really interesting story about how people go bad. In this particular case, the premise is: Nobody thinks they're bad. They simply have different points of view. This is about a kid that's really wonderful. He has some flaws - and those flaws ultimately do him in."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 53.

Dooku's belief in a better government was Palpatine's Empire. That meant that he supported a dictatorship over the petty, squabbling Senate. The Sith think that a dictatorship is the best thing for the galaxy. They don't see good and evil as anything more than points of view that are not equally shared.

Not really. A Jedi can use the Force and a Lightsaber without aggression. When Obi-wan fights in AOTC, ROTS and ANH, he does so without aggression. He has no desire to fight and will only draw his saber when confronted with an attack.

 

Are you trying to disagree with me? I don't see how any of that is contrary to the point I was trying to make. I was talking about Dooku and his leadership with the Seperatists, not Palpatine and the Republic.

 

What are you talking about? Are you referring to Dooku's public persona as an opponent of the Republic, or are you referring to his being a Sith Lord who is manipulating the Confederacy into thinking that he and Darth Sidious are out to create reform in the Republic, but in reality are staging a fake war so that in the end, they can set up the Empire.

 

Methinks that leaders in non-violence like Ghandi and MLK would likely see otherwise.

 

He is a with and a murderer

But yes some people IU see him as a freedom fighter.

 

Both


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I really like Count Dooku as a character, though I don't necessarily agree with all of his motives. He can range anywhere from "freedom fighter" to Sith Lord or even somewhere in a grey area. I really wished they introduced him in Episode I and got him into the story in some way so he'd be more of a major focus than being introduced about an hour and a half into AOTC, followed by a death in the first fifteen minutes of ROTS.

Dooku is definitely the most morally ambiguous of all the Sith Lords.

 

To be honest, I always see both Dooku and Vader as a Dark Jedi more than a Sith, because Vader had the light side in him all time in the saga and just like Vader, Dooku wasn't a wild beast like Maul and Sidious were. His previous life as a Jedi Master was too long for him to become a monster like that and I think that is why he seems less wild as Maul & Sidious.

Also AotC Comic book described him as a ''Dark Jedi'' which is very interesting.

 

To Lucas, there is no such thing as a Dark Jedi. The comic used that phrase to cover the truth that was to come that he was a Sith Lord.

Which is the difference between a pacifist and a Jedi, one who detests violence and the other who uses it as a last resort.

 

TCW at least has a few "fallen Jedi who have not yet become Sith Lords" - for which the term Dark Jedi seems as good as any.

 

I know this is somewhat irrelevant to the Dooku discussion but these factions hardly sound socialist:

• Trade Federation
• Banking Clan
• Techno Union
• Commerce Guild
• Corporate Alliance
• House Dooku
• Geonosis Industries

If anything the separatists sound like the dangers of uncontrolled capitalism. While the Empire on the other hand represents the evils of totalitarian socialism similar to Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, Red China, North Korea.

The Galactic Republic imo represents a shaky,somewhat corrupt democracy, not unlike the unstable shape America has been in the past couple of decades.

The Rebel Alliance in the OT probably wanted to return the galaxy to the more sincere pre-TPM Galactic Republic, not the greedy, corrupt version seen in AOTC, TCW, and ROTS.

I always viewed the C.I.S. as a sort of "extremist predecessor" of the Rebel Alliance we see in the OT. This was even implied/hinted at in a dropped subplot in ROTS.

Sorry that one word you mentioned led into me talking about GFFA politics.

As for Dooku, he started out with good intentions, but the deeper you dwell into the dark side (especially under Palpatine's wing) the more susceptible to becoming evil you are, and he eventually did become a monster for the most part near the end.

 

Yep. General Krell, Barriss Offee or even Quinlan Vos we can safely say that they were Dark Jedi.

 

Ventress, between her Master's death and her joining Dooku as a Sith apprentice (though not The Apprentice of the Two), could also qualify in that intermediate period.

 

From what could be understood historucally, tyrants and dictatorships are not by themselves evil, even democracies and republics could go bad and have in real life whether in ancient world or modern. Tyrants and dictators in the ancient world were a bit different in meaning and duties, Athens was colonial and expansive. . Dooku and Palpatine are trying to mold culture and civilization in their own image and their own idealism. They want big government controlling everything, and run by an elite few and untimely one being absolutely in control of everything. Those that think they're in control really arent, as the bigger fish is at the end of the day, the Emperor who is a Sith Lord. It is likely the Sith Lord's agenda is to make extinct all Force sensitives other than himself, a quest or desire for immortality is also important to both Jedi and Sith as both fear losing power and there is a desire for greater knowledge- The Sith Lord essentially wants to be a living god. Thing with both Dooku and Palpatine and others like them, is that they're psychopathic murders, while they're shaking your hand with one hand, with the other they're ready to stab you in the back or cut your throat.

Maybe with the Sith they're more upfront with their form of government, the Republic seemed to started off a utopia of sorts but degraded under its own bureaucracy and was really held together by the forceful hand of the Jedi Knights. Its doubtful the Sith alone would be respoble for the degeneration of the Republic or the prior Republic, big galactic republics seem more like a socialists dream of a one world government. Its doubtful every planet or system wants to be subservient to one government millions or billions of miles away dictating policy . Plus regular people could be prone to do bad, to do bad or evil is not limited to Sith. Sith more or less take advantage of the bad and evil that men do, but they also seem to take advantage of the good just as easily.

Dooku is described as a political idealist in AOTC and he puts on facade of being peaceful and sucedding from the Republic through political and peaceful means, but behind the curtains he's organizing and plotting a military invasion of the republic, were even planets not supporting the Separatist cause would be invaded . The Republic does this too, when they false flag liberate planets, Palpatine and Dooku controlled both sides, so matter what the Sith were gonna form an Empire. From what we learn in Dark Disciple, he was annoyed with the Jedi after he learned of his parentage and family, being taken away and only late in life learning how powerful and influential his background truly was. Dooku always desired greater power to be more powerful than Yoda or any Jedi in existence. His fall is a lust for power and dominance and a new order of society, so idealism, much like Anakin.

 

Well, Lucas would go with Fallen Jedi over Dark Jedi.

 

Dark Jedi was mainly used since the start of the Bantam era, but I think it was used a couple of times in the Marvel series. It wasn't until "Ulic Qel-Droma And The Beasts Of Onderon" and "Dark Apprentice" that we found out for certain that Sith referred to a group of dark side warriors who were very powerful foes of the Jedi. Dark Jedi was still used to distinguish between the Sith Lords and those who Luke has dealings with during the rise of the New Republic era. Exar Kun and Kyp Durron were outright referred to as Sith in the JAT books, while Joruus C'boath and Hethrir were mere Dark Jedi. Dark Jedi were mostly phased out, save for TCW media while, while Sith made a larger impact due to the films.

This is why we have the Inquisitors who fill in for the Sith, while keeping with what Ventress was to the Sith.

 

She's referred to as "Dark Lady" at least - even one of the comic titles is "Duel with a Dark Lady".

 

Makes sense for a potential Sith woman to be referred to as Lady as opposed to Lord.