PT "Count Dooku was once a Jedi. He couldn't assassinate anyone."

...

As I said, there's nothing to indicate that.

"Jedi were stagnant/complacent/corrupt", "Quigon knew how to train but they didn't", "approach was dogmatic", "morally grey" - all claims thrown around about the movie, with nothing to support that it's true.

 

What about being too old to be trained?

 

Well... he was too old to be trained, look what happened

 

Hahaha. Agreed! But so was Luke and his training went better. I don't think the Jedi were corrupt - but they did become complacent in their beliefs being right. Maybe some of that came about from their lost connection with the force?

 

I don't know which of this stuff is in what EU piece, but it's not in the movies - none of the "complacency" (except a few marginal lines that could be read that way, but it's peripheral), or lost connection (dark side shrouds their perception, but that's another thing).


The "too old" thing was used, in both cases, as kind of shields or excuses - Yoda rejected him because Luke was being a hothead and a jerk, and Mace said it after 10 minutes of everyone saying he's got too much dark in him, or too much attachment, etc.

So, it's not of primary importance anyway, but if "too old" was supposed to be a sign of their dogmatism, then they went against their dogmatism eventually and this didn't count, did it.

 

2K-D2 - I think we're meant to read into the movies. So yes - the characters may not actually come right out and say things - we see events unfurl and can ask why these events happened. What could the Jedi have done better. What the Emperor did so well was take the strengths of his enemies and turn them into weaknesses.

The Jedi had certain rules and beliefs they lived by successfully for at least 1,000 years. Over the course of the prequels that all changed.

 

Ah okay, well I'm not kind of in the "reading into" paradigm here atm...

 

It's not a sign that Jedi can't turn to the Dark Side. It's a sign of how the Jedi became arrogant. So arrogant that they believe that one of their own, even one that left the Order, couldn't possibly be behind the assassination attempt simply because they were once a Jedi, automatically making them better than assassins.

 

Dooku has two personas. Persona #1 is the political idealist that we hear about at the beginning of the movie.

Dooku is the leader of a group of systems that want to secceed from the Republic. It is his fire branding and political idealism that is causing the problems for the Jedi. In this persona Dooku has to put forth the illusion that he is a hard line secessionist. The one thing that is stopping secession is not the MCA, but, the fact that Palpatine and those that are against the MCA have been able to keep the separatists within the Republic with diplomacy. The MCA threatens to destroy that diplomacy which Padme and others are fighting to keep going.

Padme believes Dooku is behind the assasination plot because he is a hardline separatist, and it would speed his political agenda along if he could kill her, thus removing a key leader in the diplomacy movement. The reaction would be that the MCA would pass, diplomacy would fail, thus leading to secession.

It's no secret to anyone within the Republic who the Separatists will turn too if the MCA is passed and diplomacy fails. Padme points it out when she briefs the Queen upon returning to Naboo. She comes out and says that is the MCA passes the Seps will feel threatened and turn to the Trade Federation and other mega-corps for their armies.

Sompadme believes that, Dooku in his "political idealist" persona, isn't necessarily looking for war. He is trying to undermine the diplomacy because he is a hardcore Seperatist and just wants to break free of the Republic. She feels her death would be enough to undermine that diplomacy and create fear in the Republic to pass the MCA. Thus giving Dooku what he wants.

She doesn't have to believe that Dooku wants war, all she believes is that Dooku is trying to undermine the diplomatic process and get the Republic to make a knee jerk reaction.


Of course the second persona is the true one, he is a Sith and wants a war.

 

I know there's "two Dookus", but there was a point at which I was confused by Padme... clairvoyance? I basically thought she somehow came to suspect Idealist Dooku to be Warmonger Dooku - it's been cleared up since that her assumption makes sense for Idealist Dooku and not that far-fetched.

Her death would scare the Republic into MCA? Or would her death weaken the anti-MCA side, thus leading to MCA? Seems like the latter makes more sense?



Also:
"Do you see any way through negotiations to bring the Separatists back into the Republic?"
"Not if they feel threatened. My guess is they'll turn to the Trade Federation or the Commerce Guild for help. "

Haven't they already left, and Idealist Dooku's goal would've been to induce the MCA and make the separatists feel threatened?

 

I wasn't pointing out the "two Dooku's" thing as an insult or to suggest that you didn't understand it. I pointed it out so as to make sure the context was there as to which Dooku I was talking about, and the one Padme would believe she was talking about. Again no insult was intended.

Fear is a powerful ally.

How do you weaken the anti-MCA side? By scaring Senators that are on the fence thus making them change their vote. How do you scare them? By showing those Senators that the Republic has become a much more dangerous place and they need an army to protect themselves.

It's not like Padme was the single deciding vote, so her death does not all of a sudden make the vote different. However her death scares other senators to change their votes thus having a greater effect on the numbers.

Remember, at the beginning of the movie, we see that Palpatine is stalling the vote because at that point if the vote were to take place, the MCA would fail. The Jedi want the MCA to pass because they need help, thus the warnings that "they are not soldiers". Palpatine is stalling to try and generate more pro-MCA votes, but, as he tells the Jedi, he can't stall forever.

There's also a scene in the script for AOTC that was cut where a pro-MCA senator (Orn Free Taa) wants to defer the vote, which we can deduce that if a pro-MCA senator wants to hold off the vote for another time, that must mean he feels his side would be defeated if the vote happened at that moment.

Fear is a powerful ally, killing one Senator wouldn't change the numbers, scaring other senators into changing their votes because of the death of a senator would have a far bigger impact on the actual vote.

No they haven't officially left yet, but, they have one foot out the door.

The opening crawl states that those systems have "declared" their "intent" to leave the Republic. Palpatine states that he won't let the Republic be split in two, his negotiations will not fail.

This suggests that the Separatists are almost out the door, but not quite. They are still there under the good faith of negotiations. This also explains Dooku's line of dialogue later in the movie when the Jedi show up with an army, that the Republic won't get away with their betrayal.

The Queens remarks still make sense because the Seps are for the most part are gearing up to leave, and she is hoping negotiations will bring them back into the Republic as wholes so that the Republic can be one again.

Political Idealist Dooku's goal would be to push secession anyway he could, killing Padme, thus removing one of the main leaders that are pro-diplomacy, would create the necessary fear to get the Republic to knee jerk a vote and pass the MCA, and than create fear on the Separatists side for those that were also holding out hope for diplomacy and change their minds to leave outright.

War was not an absolute certainty. It was only a possibility. I have said in other threads that it seems Lucas used the American Civil War as a rough draft for what we see in AOTC (Confederacy of Independent States=Confederate States of America). The American Civil War was not fought to free slaves (there were states that fought for the union that were still slaves states, and the emancipation proclamation only freed slaves in rebel states, not slave states that stayed loyal to the Union), it was fought to force the rebel states back into the Union.

What we see happening in AOTC is this same setup as a prelude to war. The Seps fear that is the Republic creates an army, it will use said army to force them back into the Republic. So the Seps will feel the need to get their own army to counter this possibility. This all creates tension, and the possibilities for all out war increase. Eventually, this is what we see happens.

 

But that's how the study of film theory works. Movies are more about showing than about telling. So are you're saying - if a character doesn't explicitly state something - then you won't accept it as part of the story and are not open to interpreting what is depicted on screen?


2K-D2 wrote

"Also:​

"Do you see any way through negotiations to bring the Separatists back into the Republic?"​

"Not if they feel threatened. My guess is they'll turn to the Trade Federation or the Commerce Guild for help. "​

​

Haven't they already left, and Idealist Dooku's goal would've been to induce the MCA and make the separatists feel threatened?"​

That's a good question? Have they already left 100%? Do we know the order of events for how the Confederacy of Independant Systems and the Separatists formed? And is the CIS a fully formed entity of it's own at the start of AotC have successfully seceded from the republic? Or does that only happen after the war starts? Or is the war was galvanized more star systems to leave the republic?​

mikeximus :

You answered my questions I'm just seeing. So it is the Republican attack on Geonosis that causes the independant systems to leave.

Dooku's motives for eliminating Padme are interesting. It makes sense in the grander scheme of things to stop diplomacy, but on the other hand it appears Nute Gunray's joining the Separatists is contingent on her death. Is it a bit of both? Is it one or the other? And could the attacks on Padme all be meant to lead the Jedi to the Clone Army and possibly as far of Geonsins?

But that seems like such a complicated plan with too many variables.

 

Well, It all depends... One might look at it as not really an attack, but, a rescue operation that led to a full fledged engagement... Some look at it that the Jedi, and by extension the Republic, violated Geonosis sovereignty when Obi Wan entered as a spy. However, Geonosis wasn't within the Republic.. They were just allied with the Separatists. Yet again though, because of Obi Wan's spying, the Republic finds out that the Separatists were only going through the motions of negotiations. They were building their own army, and planned on at the least holding the Republic hostage or at worst conducting a full out attack in order to get their demands. So who and what really started the engagement on Geonosis is left up to opinion.

What is clear though is that with or without the Battle of Geonosis, it seemed the Separatists were planning on leaving the Republic either way, save something monumental happening in negotiations.

Ahhh, but remember... Everything I talked about in my previous posts, were from the mindset of Padme, and why she may have thought that Dooku was behind her assassination attempt. My posts are plausible reasons as to why Padme would think what she thought in AOTC, and simply not just her pulling Dooku's name out of thin air.

The real reason why Dooku actually wanted her dead was much simpler, he wanted the help of the Trade Federation and in order to get it, he had to have her killed. Dooku was planning on using the battle droid armies to force the Republic into a settlement. He wasn't interested in the MCA or the politics. It was simply a way to get the TF's army, and than Palpatine and Dooku use the assassination attempts in order to get the Jedi involved and lead them to the Clone Army etc etc etc.

Edit: Remember, that Padme believes the Separatists are negotiating in good faith. She thinks they will only turn to the Trade Fed if pushed. She doesn't know they are already planning this. So she probably believes Dooku is trying to undermine the negotiations in order to get what he wants.

 

Dooku left the Jedi order because of his conflicting views; he was seen as a maverick and a visionary. Also, Dooku was a revered and widely respected Jedi master, he was extremely wise. So it may have been strange for someone of Dooku's status to fall to the dark side.

Maul was an enraged being, truly consumed by the dark side. Dooku was always calm and serene despite his fall, so it may have been difficult to sense the darkness that dwelled within him.

I would also say it's rare for Jedi to fall to the dark side, we only see a tiny amount of Jedi be seduced by its call despite there being 10,000 Jedi across the galaxy.

 

I agree it is thinly demonstrated, but you have to read between the lines.

Look at how Yoda's claim of Jedi arrogance in AOTC comes true in the next film, for all four people involved (or in the case of Anakin, mentioned) in the conversation.

Obi-Wan: "His abilities have made him... well, arrogant."
Yoda: "Yes. A flaw more and more common amongst Jedi. Even the older more experienced ones."

- Obi-Wan will lose Anakin to the dark side after insisting to Yoda he could successfully train him in Episode One.
- Mace will confidently tell Palpatine the Sith's oppression will never return moments before Anakin and Sidious kill him.
- Anakin, thinking it is his sole duty to save Padme, turns to the dark side and ends up contributing to her death.
- Yoda tells Palpatine his reign is over, and then loses to Palpatine and has to go into exile.

I don't think these are coincidental.


On Qui-Gon' superior mentor-ship, you have to just look at the similarities between his dialogue and OT Obi-Wan and OT Yoda's dialogue. Then contrast that to dialogue in Episode Two...

"Concentrate on the moment. Feel, don't think. Trust your instincts."
vs
"Patience. Use the force. Think."

Qui-Gon in TPM and Obi-Wan and Yoda in the OT align pretty well, but Yoda and Obi-Wan (particularly in AOTC) are a little behind the eight-ball.

 

Some other relevant lines...

Qui-Gon: "My only conclusion can be, is that it was a Sith Lord."
Ki-Adi: "Impossible. The Sith have been extinct for a millennia."
Mace: "I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing."
Yoda: "Ah, hard to see the dark side is."


Plus there is Jocasta Nu stubbornly commenting "If an item does not appear in our records, it doesn't exist!"

And Obi-Wan not believing a Sith could be controlling the Senate because "The Jedi would be aware of it."

 

What's also interesting to me is that nobody ever suggests that Xanatos is a Sith yet Qui-Gon instantly knows that Maul is a Sith.

 

The Jedi are overconfident. I think that's apparent. And they are "corrupt" in the sense that they are soldiers, when they aren't supposed to be. They were peacekeepers. Peacekeepers maintain security and stability in regions that are recovering from conflict and transitioning to peace, but where tensions are still high. Or they can enforce a peace on two belligerents. But they are supposed to be an impartial third party. They should have been more like Padme, in urging for a peaceful resolution. Instead they find out that Dooku is holding Obi-Wan, so they run off to rescue him and then end up being generals in a war. They become partial to their government, they get sent to far off systems where they have to occupy systems and drive back enemy armies. They rise to prominent positions which allows Palpatine to accuse them of making a power play. Had they been the ones calling for peace, acting as diplomats, helping stabilize systems that might soon join the war, etc. then I don't think anyone would buy that they had staged a coup.

Instead, they become military leaders, and when the war is winding down and they'd be expected to relinquish that duty, they go into Palpatine's office, and he emerges deformed, and he can make it look like they made a power play against him.

As far as being "dogmatic" I don't see it. They do have rigid rules, but there is a reason for those rules, and none of those rules are shown to be particularly flawed. Anakin was too old to begin the training due to attachments, and attachments were forbidden because they are tied to fear of loss which leads to the Dark Side. When Yoda says this in TPM it is foreshadowing and Anakin follows that path. If anything, that showed Yoda's wisdom.

As far as being "morally grey" I also see that is being an iffy statement. They ended up taking on a role that they ideally shouldn't have. But that's not to say they are immoral. Nowhere is it stated or implied that being a soldier is a bad thing. The clones (prior to Order 66) are not portrayed as bad guys, in the OT and TFA, there are many soldiers on the good side, etc. The Jedi role was that of peacekeepers, and they became generals to fight the Sith, which was perhaps misguided, but not evil or morally bankrupt by any means. It just deprived the galaxy of its primary peacekeeping force, which is probably what they should have remained.

As far as why Padme would suspect Dooku was the one trying to have her killed, I don't think it has anything to do - in her mind - with her being anti-army. I think it's because she's a member of the loyalist committee trying to hold the Republic together. Dooku is trying to rally as many systems as he can to his cause, and she's his principal opponent in convincing systems to stay with the Republic.

There are the additional perks that killing her would cause the Republic to cry for war and would allow Palpatine to step in with the Clone Army, but the Clone Army was not known to the Republic at that point.

 

Xanatos - Qui-Gon's fallen apprentice before Obi-Wan Kenobi - I haven't thought about Xanatos in long time. He was main villain in the Young Obi-Wan - Jedi Apprentice series of books by Jude Watson. That was a great series. It really captured the spirit and adventure of Star Wars in a way most books didn't. And it's a series written for young adults. That series was interesting for how much it seemed to foreshadow and lay the groundwork for what we see in AotC and in the Clone Wars series story wise while having absolutely nothing to do with later events. So many similar things happen in the series like - Qui-Gon is old friends with a galaxy wise adventurer who retired to Coruscant with his daughter to run a diner or restaurant. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan will sometimes visit him for information. And once the Jedi helped rescue his daughter when she was in trouble (maybe because of something from his past.) It's basically Dexter Jettster - except it's 100% not Dexter Jettster. Temple life and young Jedi are handleed in a way similar to what we see on The Clone Wars. Even Qui-Gon not wanted to take Obi-Wan as his apprentice is similar to the start of Anakin and Ahsoka's apprenticeship.


I'd guess the current way Star Wars stands Xanatos never happened. But my guess is fighting a Sith Lord is very different than fighting a dark jedi. Probably in both the Sith Lords ability to use the dark side of the force and ferocious way they can fight.

TaradosGon

Dogmatic definition - inclined to lay down principles as incontrovertibly true.

The "dogmatic" nature of the Jedi following their beliefs is interesting - following those rules have really help them and the galaxy. It's given them 1,000 years of peace from any huge galaxy wide conflicts. The Jedi don't see them as dogmatic, they are tried and true - tested time and time again for success. What gets dogmatic is their belief in the rules as being the only way and how inflexible they are. Whether you or I think this is dogmatic - Palpatine does.

Anakin: "You know the Dark Side?"

Palpatine: "Anakin, if one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic, narrow view of the Jedi. If you wish to become a complete and wise leader, you must embrace a larger view of the Force."

―Anakin Skywalker and Palpatine[src]

Palpatine used the Jedi's beliefs against them. Took a strength and made it a weakness. Just like he flipped Dooku to the Dark Side. What's interesting is during the 1,000 years of relative galactic peace when the Jedi were so successful, it's the same time as the Sith Rule of Two. Also how do the Jedi know about the Rule of Two?

 

That's because Qui-gon knew who Xanatos was and he was not a Sith. Maul was unknown to him and the skills he displayed were that of a Sith Lord. Qui-gon felt more power and laser sharp focus in Maul, than he did his former Padawan.

 

Great points! What's interesting is Yoda and Dooku have the same basic relationship as Qui-Gon and Xanatos (Except Xanatos didn't become a Jedi) If Xanatos had become a Sith would Qui-Gon know? Did Yoda know that Dooku was a Sith Lord at the end of Attack of the Clones?

 

Yoda suspected that Dooku was a Sith, but didn't have confirmation until a bit later. Qui-gon would have sensed it in Xanatos as well.

 

Yes, it is rare for a Jedi to fall. It goes back to the origins of the Sith and why the Jedi start training infants from very early on. In fact, the point of the Lost Twenty is to establish that ceasing to be a Jedi was extremely rare.

Still, they don't suspect of Dooku falling (at the beginning of AotC) because they have no reason to. Being a idealist separatist doesn't mean he has fallen.

 

I think it was because of how the order reacts to Anakin.

I read it in Wookieepidea and it says that other masters treat Anakin, unlike other Padawans.

Mace also distrusts him, leading him to believe that Jedis betrayed him

Noooo my fav character
Obi-Wan admitted that he failed as a teacher, if Anakin was with Yoda then things would be different.

To end this reply "Lost a planet, Master Obi-Wan has. How embarrassing."

 

Yoda would have been no better a teacher to Anakin that Obi-Wan was, and quite conceivably worse. The root cause of the Kenobi/Skywalker partnership breakdown was Obi-Wan's insistence on attempting to train Anakin in the traditional Jedi way and to obey the traditional Jedi code when by his very nature and the path of his discovery, Anakin just was not cut out for the traditional Jedi way. Yoda on the other hand is pretty much the embodiment and founder of the 'traditional' way and it took Sidious kicking his little green butt all over the Senate to break him out of it. Yoda might have managed to find another way to teach Anakin, but then again might not.