Rocky M, NC cover up. (as it should be)

I am outraged at you gentleman, the government covers up everything!!!!! If any of you actually had a father in WW2 you would know this to be FACT!!! Our wonderful government has the power to shut up, anyone or anything that doesn't believe them 100%. I am not anti-government just anti-republican. I do believe that we could have the "X file" syndrom going on in our capital as we speak. Meaning, find out the truth and cover it up!!
Now, don't get me started about the Pope. I have met him 20 odd years ago. He may not look like he does or knows much, but I would put him against Bush anyday!!! They have a lot of formality to do before they say the pope is dead. We would know within the hour. I do not believe we have a "Weekend at Bernies" going on in Rome.

 

Well said!

 

Um, I was joking Queen Mother.

 

I do not believe the government covers up everything. I also believe we live in the best country in the world, hands down. Where else would you be able to live, and say such things about the government and still be breathing the next day?

And every day, I breath a sigh of relief that Kerry didnt win the Presidency. We would be far worse off with him, than without him. I am a republican, and I am very anti-liberal, but I am not going to shove my feelings down everyones throats every chance I get. With that said, I am really starting to tire over the constant "our government is deceiving us" thing. If thats how you feel, fine, but this really isnt the place for it. We have folks on both sides of the fence with this issue, but TRUST me... we have folks that feel VERY strongly against what some are saying here, as well. I dont think this is the place for it at all, because it could very well brood discontent, and I will not let that happen. Subjects that can arouse feelings that strong really shouldnt be put up here, especially if its going to provoke other members.

 

Next time you feel like grumbling about our President(and no I dont agree with everything he does) or our country, go to www.parade.com and check out the article on the worlds worst dictators. Read the print version in yesterdays paper and it gave me a better appreciation of just how good we have it here. I loathe politicians as much as the next, but at least I can express my opinion without fear.

 

Riff wrote: Where else would you be able to live, and say such things about the government and still be breathing the next day?

Canada, the UK, and most of Western Europe all come to mind. Does out government always tell us everything? Certainly not. Does our government out right lie to us about some things? Without a doubt. Does it have the power to stifle dissension? Absolutely. Does it sometimes abuse that power? Yes.

With all of that said, however, it should be pointed out that any government?s primary purpose is to provide stability and security to it?s citizen body. Our government manages to do this while also providing us with freedoms, opportunities, and equality unrivaled by most others. It?s not perfect, and there will always be people who abuse the power entrusted to them. However, on the grand scale, we?ve got it pretty good. Does that make the deception, abuse of power, and tunnel vision right? No. But it?s easy to complain and criticize from the cheap seats. If you?re really discontent with the way things are, stop complaining and start taking productive actions.

 

Rest assured Queen Mum that my colleagues were speaking in jest in regards to the beloved Pope and meant no disrespect.

As for WWII vets... my Grandfather is a vet who loves this country and is a registered republican. I do find people's political views somewhat intriguing and would like to ask why one would label themselves as anti-republican?

My understanding of the republican philosophy is very capitalistic in nature. The idea is to keep what you earn and cut back on government hand outs. My understanding of the democratic philosophy is increase government programs and aid those who are less fortunate.

"Greed can be a powerful ally..." Either way the government takes from the working class and uses the money to their own ends. I am not cynical enough to give up on the goodness of man... at the same time I am not naive enough to rely on the goodness of a stranger.

Lod-Reh SaJon ~
"If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force.
If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."

 

Lodreh wrote: My understanding of the republican philosophy is very capitalistic in nature. The idea is to keep what you earn and cut back on government hand outs. My understanding of the democratic philosophy is increase government programs and aid those who are less fortunate.

Both practices seem to work well in theory, but then again so does communism, and we've all seen how well that turned out. Unfortunately, most of our society (and humanity in general) have neglected the "enlightened" part of the "enlightened self-interest" that Adam Smith advocated. The result is greed without regard for the system. This "me first" mentality is used by people abusing the system on both ends. Therefore, neither works as it should in theory.

As an aside, at times I've wondered if the opposing fiscal ideologies combined with our immigration practices aren't orchestrated to destabilize the tendency for polarized classes. But that's simply idle speculation.

 

So the system is set up to incite distrust and discontent between both parties? I admit that sounds ideal if the goal is to keep a balance of power.

Lod-Reh SaJon ~
"If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force.
If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."

 

So the system is set up to incite distrust and discontent between both parties? I admit that sounds ideal if the goal is to keep a balance of power.

No. Though it does have that added benefit. Okay, let me see if I can put it in a way that makes better sense. But keep in mind, this is idle speculation on my part. I've never taken the time to put the theory through any sort of test.

We have elections every two years, which means the balance of power shifts slightly every few years. This means that our fiscal policy and tax laws are in an almost constant state of motion. Now this motion could be random (and probably is) depending on the prevalent political wind, but it's possible that this motion is directed to maintain a status quo.

Now consider that most old world countries seem to have stricter class systems. There is very little movement (both financially and social), compared to us. Their middle classes tend to be much smaller. And the discrepancy between the wealthy and the poor seems to be greater.

Then consider that the US has a well-established history of immigration. One where immigrants were used as unskilled labors. Of course, after several generations most of these immigrants managed to make a niche for themselves. Through education, government intervention, and/or united effort they managed to break the cycle. As they make the transition into skilled labor or professional positions, this leaves a need for unskilled labors. Automation and outsourcing can help fill some of them, but most service jobs (for example) still require local people to fill them. There are essentially two ways to solve this problem. One, fill the positions with excess skilled laborers and professionals. Two, try to attract more unskilled laborers (immigrants).

Lets see if either of these scenarios are familiar?

Shifting the workforce: By using skilled labor and professionals to fill these unskilled positions, you are creating more competition for their previous positions. This means that you either have to obtain even more education or training, or you have to have connections to get and keep one of those jobs. This has the effect of stagnating social and economic movement between the classes.

Stimulating immigration: You cut back on regulations and restrictions that would impair certain groups from immigrating. You create, remove, or amend laws and regulations that would make immigration more appealing or feasible (language laws). And finally, you start offering lucrative incentives (such as health care, welfare, etc.) for immigrants regardless of the legality of their immigration status.

Put all of this together, and you have a semi-plausible argument for the orchestrated use of fiscal policy, law, and immigration regulations to help maintain a sizable middle class.

 

Interesting idea... however a beast that is always in motion is bound to fall at some point... would that parallel the stock market crashing? A point of friction between economic and social policies causes the system to stutter to a halt and demanding reform as a means of a jump start?

Lod-Reh SaJon ~
"If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force.
If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."

 

I must say, to start off with I am a Republican and proud. I have a strong military background as well. Both of my grandfathers were in the airforce, one a full bird Colonel, and the other an engineer. Also I have an uncle who was in the Navy, and many other relatives that serverd. Drak was in the navy till he got hurt in boot camp, I also was going into the military aswell untill certian things happened including my back injury. I am sorry that anything said in jest here offended you, but I would rather vote for bush than hermun munster. I will say this though too, Clinton was a great presedent too though. I am republican by default, but i also do research to the best of my ability and choose the best candidate for my beliefs.

 

It's possible. The stock market runs (in large part) on perception?both for the stocks in question and the individual's need for solvency. It wouldn't be that hard to create a panic that could precipitate a large dip or even a crash. However, while I wouldn't rule out minor adjustments (much like the Federal Reserve Board adjusts interest rates to stimulate the economy) I don't think that any of the recent crashes were orchestrated for that purpose.

If this is happening for the reasons I'm speculating (and that's a big if), I'ld be more inclined to view it as an effort to slow down a systematic failure. Instead of thinking in terms of "jump-starting" things, I'ld use the analogy of the Dutch-boy trying to use his finger to keep the dyke from rupturing. (shut up Joe!)

I would argue that the end result is ultimately inevitable. America will become more like the developed old world countries and cease to be the "land of opportunity". That title will likely go to some third world nation where our former manufacturing and production jobs have been relocated.

 

Unless we continue to allow unskilled labor to continue through the borders unchecked that is .

Lod-Reh SaJon ~
"If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force.
If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."

 

Well, according to the bible, the greatest country will fall in the end times. So it could mean that we are the country that will fall before the second comming of Christ. But, it could also be argued that Rome or many other civilizations of their times.

 

Eventually, we will reach critical mass for professional jobs. In order to keep a service class we'ld also have to eliminate social programs for them, including education. The end result would be the same. America would cease being the land of opportunity. There might be continued movement between the middle and upper classes for a while but eventually attrition would result in rigid social and economic classes.

 

Kazuma wrote: Well, according to the bible, the greatest country will fall in the end times.

Not to suggest that America is that country being spoken about, but we are definitely on the decline. We have been since the 1960's. No nation founded on a system of beliefs that espouses rights and privileges without personal responsibility will last for long.

 

thats true. ~edited b/c this is not philosophical debate about religon thread~

 

We do live in the best country. I don't believe anywhere else would let us have this much to say about government or religion. We all do have our own opinions and look how much this one thing has brought us closer together. I am beginning to understand all of you a little better thanks to our discussions. Thank you. Along with everyone else on this board, these were MY opionions and that is it, MINE, I don't say these things to sway anyone to "my side" this is just how I was raised and how I was taught. Yes, I do think for myself, but all of us in some way or another was "swayed" by our family upbringing, our invironments etc.. This is me. Take or Leave it!!

 

So we need to take responsibility for our own actions or fall to the wayside... Now here is the real kicker... How do you get people to take responsibility for their own actions?

Lod-Reh SaJon ~
"If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force.
If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."

 

/smile Well said Quenn Mum... have a safe journey.

Lod-Reh SaJon ~
"If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force.
If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."

 

I agree we live in a great country. However, the things we have done makes me question how great we really are.

 

no matter how our country is turning to the modern Sodom and Gomora, we are still the most powerful, and countries are like people, they all have their weaknesses.

 

FYI: Next Tuesday (5/29/05), the National Geographic Channel will be running a special on how the unique design of the Pentagon enabled it withstand the 9/11 attack so well.