RPG Cracken's Crew website and Clone Wars Sourcebook

Discussion in 'Games' started by JediAlly, Nov 26, 2005.

  1. sabarte Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    Force Doppleganger is an established power as of, um, Dark Empire. Not saying it isn't cheesy, it's just that it seems like the most plausible explanation keeping all EU. If the Dooku is younger or really someone else, that should be reflected in his physical stats. Ten times faster is still 8 years to grow an eighty-year-old.

    The solution would be for NDA to not have killed Dooku, obviously :p
  2. Anstrona Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2005
    Force Doppelganger was indeed in the Dark Empire Sourcebook, and it's been a while since I've reread Dark Empire, but I don't recall anyone ever actually USING the ability in Dark Empire or any other EU for that matter. So I think Nar is of the same mind as myself in thinking it was just put there in that sourcebook for filler. Sure that in itself makes it official, but actually applying it to something that occurred in the EU is another story all together. It's not a very good power anyway and it's pretty contradictory of most other EU that has been released since then. Jedi aren't capable of materializing matter out of nothing but the power of thought alone. Now an illusion sure, but that's not what the Doppelganger power was - creating a physical double of yourself that you could physically interact with.

    Even the use of the word Doppelganger is somewhat of a misnomer. Figuratively speaking, a doppelganger is nothing more than a "ghostly shadow" of ones' self that most commonly mimics your every move. So it's a fancy word for "Wraith", but they claim the power creates a physical manifestation. So...what are we talking now, Zombies? I dunno. Bottom line, even though it's an "official" ability, in the d6 at least, it hasn't been duplicated in the d20 (and for good reason in my opinion) and that's probably for the best. Lucas as a company has time and time again thrown "official" material to the wasteside in terms of future EU but never officially saying, "No, that's not official anymore". In fact I can't really think of any instance when they've said that (aside from the whole Infinities line which isn't really the same thing anyway). Then they leave making the pieces fit together again up to an entire department of people like Leeland Chee (continuity manager).

    Like Nar mentioned, in the Thrawn trilogy they used Spaarti cloning cylinders to create stormtroopers, and instead of it taking months to grow a human to full maturity and flash-training them while in the vaats, they used Ysalamari to repel the Force from the cylinders to create them in WEEKS with none of those pesky "going insane" side-effects. So it is completely possible that a clone of Dooku - the 80-year old version - could very likely have been created using cloning technology in a matter of months, not years. Also given the era (Clone Wars and all), it seems like the most logical explanation.

    So the long and short of it all is basically this: yes it's an official ability from the Dark Empire Sourcebook, but there has been no official application of that ability in any of the EU storylines, it was a pretty dodgy power to begin with, and it hasn't been revisited since DESB. Because of these reasons our official stance on the subject is that Force Doppelganger is not what was used to explain the Dooku clone. It is our belief that the most likely explanation is the clone was indeed a genuine clone using either Spaarti technology or a derivative/prototype thereof. I even went so far as to name it "Count Dookuu", harkening to the Joruus C'baoth reference. Heck, who knows, maybe Joruus C'baoth was a byproduct of testing by the Separatists (Sith) to create a Dooku clone.

    But the thing to remember here is: that is OUR opinion on the subject, and it's an unofficial opinion at that since this is just fan material. I'm just stating my opinion for argument's sake. What YOU think is obviously what you'd want to use for YOUR campaign ideas.
  3. Jedi_Matt Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2002
    star 4
    Actually, Luke used the technique to get Leia away so he could continue his sabotage or something.
  4. Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2003
    star 6
    Yeah, Luke used it in Dark Empire.

    I'm pretty sure Abel Pena (the Force Doppleganger retcon first appeared in FactFiles) and Dan Wallace are referencing the Dark Empire Sourcebook when they mention the Dooku Doppleganger "clone." (Check out Abel's essay on the topic.) Actually, the only reason why the word "clone" is in there is to fix a quote in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, where Sidious mentions that a clone of Dooku had been recently killed (referencing New Droid Army.)

    Personally, I like the Doppleganger fix better than having another clone running around. We have enough of those already... ;)
  5. NarCranor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2005
    star 2
    Well, after a bit of research, I think I can explain why this probably couldn't be dooku or sidious using the doppleganger power as explained in DESB. As the power is, you have to re-roll (skill check) to keep it up every five minutes. If the Jedi stops using the power the doppleganger fades away. Now, it requires a very difficult control DC, very difficult sense DC, and a heroic alter DC.

    So this clearly (to me anyway) wasn't really designed to be a power that you keep up for a month or so at a time. Dooku would just be sitting in a meditation chamber doing nothing but concentrating on the doppleganger if that is how it was made. That would seem to defeat the purpose of being in more than one place at a time. Now, while the DESB doesn't specifically mention range, it doesn't really seem like this would be the kind of power you can use from halfway across the galaxy. I mean, does his doppleganger act on its own power? or is he controlling it?

    It just seems to work a lot better as one of the other descriptions I offered, despite Abel Pena's opinion that it was a doppleganger simply because he didn't like the clone retcon? That seems a silly reason, these are the clone wars, after all. Thank you for pointing out the essay though, it was a great read.

    In any case, I'd hate to turn this thread into a doppleganger debate thread, I think everyone has stated their opinions on the matter, and we would seem to either be wrong (or soon will be) once abel pena puts out something official in the states about it. (getting fact files out here is almost impossible). Thank you for pointing it out though, we'll keep an eye on to doppleganger debacle, and change it as soon as it becomes 100% clear that the official stance is force doppleganger.
  6. Talon_Wolfe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2002
    star 4
    I remember reading something official about this, it might have been in a jedi counseling. The created rules to reflect Sidious's true face comeing out while under the force lightning energy. They said that he had in fact created a 'nice guy' mask for himself with Sith Alchemy.
  7. NarCranor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2005
    star 2
    Exactly, that would be the specific power I am referring to. If sidious was able to do this to alter his face that much, how hard would it be for a young Dooku Clone to appear older? So yeah, that was where that theory came from.

    BTW, for our next chapter, we are releasing about 41 padawans of the Jedi Order during the clone wars. Should be up on feb 15th. Though on feb 1st we do have a new page to the comic book, so be sure to check that out too!
  8. JediAlly Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2000
    star 4
    Since you brought up the Jedi, I felt I should ask if you'll be taking into account the end of the Republic comic series. Specifically, the events that happen in Loyalties (#78), Into the Unknown (#79-80), The Hidden Enemy (#81-3), and Purge, as well as the Jedi who appeared in Purge and Into the Unknown. I know that technically only The Hidden Enemy occurs within the timeline of your sourcebook, but the others feature Jedi and/or characters who have appeared in the Clone Wars comics.

    Are you going to be able to incorporate the forthcoming fifth volume of the Clone Wars Adventures? I know that at least one of the stories within starts our favorite lovely Twi'lek Jedi Aayla Secura. Mmm, Aayla. [said Homer Simpson-style]

    Also, are you going to consolidate the chapters into one "book" so as to speak.
  9. NarCranor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2005
    star 2
    Good questions. First of all, yes we will be taking into account all the comics you mentioned, assuming they are out at the time we publish. beyond that, you might have to wait a year before we do our first update, and add in additional things mentioned in other sources. For instance, in purge, we have a few jedi that die. How they die will definately be included in their entries. Now, as for the characters created for that comic specifically, there may not be enough information available on them to justify doing an entire write up, we will have to wait and see. But suffice to say, bultar swan, tsui choi and roblio darte's involvement in the purge comic will definately be included in their write ups.

    Now, we plan to publish piecemeal for the time being, just because people seem to like the project, and wed rather release it a bit at a time as we finish it then wait for feedback until its all done. Every month, from now on (or at least until may 15th) we have a new chapter scheduled to get published. The tentative schedule is as follows:

    Feb 15th: Padawans (about 40 of them)
    Mar 15th: Knights (about 35 of them)
    Apr 15th: Council (about 20 of them)
    May 15th: Masters (about 40 of them)

    So as you can see, in total, there will be about 135 jedi characters. This are just rough estimations, but they are based on our current lists. Some may be removed due to a lack of information, while others may be added.

    After the may 15th update, it is unknown what specifically we will move to tackle next. It will likely be separatist characters, but it is too early to tell if we will be able to put that chapter out in time by june 15th or if we will need a month off from the project. Suffice to say, NPCs are just ONE chapter of what we ultimately have planned, and when the entire book is finished, it will be combined into a massive pdf file and reorganized slightly for ease of use. When we recombine, we will also probably put out a printer friendly version, with a stark white background on the pages so that it prints clearer.

    anyway, hope I answered all of your questions there.

    Keith Kappel
  10. JediAlly Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2000
    star 4
    Thanks. I can see a Separatist chapter featuring the Separatist Council and others like Alto Stratus. I can see a Rogue chapter starring Khaleen Hentz, Villie, and Kar Vastor. Also, a Clonetrooper chapter with the named clones like Alpha, Bly, Cody, etc. starring. You can try a ship/station/vehicle chapter, but they're more or less covered in past sourcebooks and WotC website.

    And for the record, here are the forthcoming books that might provide information for you and your sourcebook and when they'll be out.

    Republic 83 - January 25
    Outbound Flight - January 31 (maybe)
    Republic Commando: Triple Zero - February 28
    Clone Wars Adventures Volume 5 - April 12

    There's also the Death in the Catacombs and another short story starring the Clone Commandos from the novel Hard Contact in the Insider Magazines. And there's the Clone Trooper article as well.

    You might also want to check out some of the Empire comics. One arc deals with Luke and Leia being on Jabiim, and it might provide some info on what happened after Anakin left. This occurs in issues 29-30 and 32-4. After that arc is the finale arc of the Empire comics, issues 36-40, and we see Luke trying to save the prisoners of Jabiim. There was another arc where Luke met a clonetrooper who was marooned on a planet for twenty years. Issues 26-7 I believe.
  11. NarCranor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2005
    star 2
    Yeah, I definately have all those things on my "must buy" list when they release. We are definately not just making an NPC book. We will be covering gear, droids, ships, vehicles, alien species, worlds, the republic, the clone army, the separatists, the fringers, and everything in between. Plus well have in depth looks at the GAR and CIS militaries. And yes, we definately plan on giving each section the same amount of research and care that we have given the sith chapter.

    However, being that there are only two of us working on this entire project (myself and tron) these things take time. We will get to all these various chapters at our own pace. For the moment, lets all stay focused on the Jedi, since that will comprise the next FOUR 15th of the month updates.

    Anyway, Im glad the project has you guys pumped enough to care what we are doing with it! Only 25 days until the Padawan chapter releases!
  12. Donp Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2003
    star 1
    Your material reads exactly like it was written by J.D. Wiker, the greatest writer in the history of d20 Star Wars. If there would have been an official Clone Wars Sourcebook by Wizards of the Coast I think it would probably have been as good as your stuff.

    Probably.

    This is the best "fan" work I have ever seen. Why are you guys not getting paid by Wizards to revamp the SW d20 line?
  13. NarCranor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2005
    star 2
    Well thanks, Don. That is about the nicest thing anyone has said about what we are doing so far. I would encourage you to do a few things if you want to keep seeing the material churned out.

    1.) Visit the rest of our site, check out our comic and our short fiction pieces. Also, check out the D20 material we have produced for the Cracken's Crew comic. There are some gems in there such as the Demolitionist PRC and the Storm Commando PRC.

    2.) Hit our forums and let the rest of the team know how you feel about our material. Granted I see what you are writing here and appreciate it. But putting it on our forums ensures the entire team sees it, and feedback keeps them nice and motivated.

    3.) Tell your friends and gaming group about us. More readers = more feedback = more motivation. This is a huge undertaking we are doing here, the more motivation, the better.

    4.) Come back and check the site on feb 1st (for a new page of the comic) and feb 15th (for the padawan chapter of the clone wars sourcebook), and let us know what you think of that stuff.

    Anyway, I am very glad you enjoyed the dark side chapter. But the next 4 months will bring a new chapter each month on the 15th devoted to jedi from the clone wars era. And rest assured we will have taken the same care and effort in making each character as accurate as possible.

    Thanks again for taking interest!

    Keith "Nar Cranor" Kappel
  14. Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2001
    star 4
    It isn't. The doppleganger is only the Dooku Anakin defeats at the end of the game. All the other Dooku appearances are Dooku himself.

    And it isn't the reason. The truth is the Fact Files article came out first, and was ignored when Dark Rendezvous appeared. But I'm glad you liked Anatomy of a Retcon.

    Best,
    Abel
  15. NarCranor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2005
    star 2
    Wow, Abel, I'm humbled that you made an appearance in the thread! I'm a huge fan of your Star Wars work, and I'm looking forward to the Grievous article in the new insider coming out soon. I really love your overall approach and interest in glueing areas of continuity back together when they don't seem to fit anymore.

    My ego is deathly curious if you took the time to check out the dark side supplement. You obviously have a gaming background based on your obsession with Domain of Evil's Halagad Ventor, and your unique position at lucasfilm would certainly give your opinion on the fan-project a unique weight. In any case, thanks for voicing up here!
  16. Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2001
    star 4
    Hey Keith. Many thanks for the kind words. :)

    As you've probably heard, there are certain factors discouraging official Star Wars writers from reading fan work... which stinks because that's my background. I came *out* of Star Wars fan fiction and it's been difficult for me not to pay back that community the way I'd like to. I've done what I can, particularly via What's the Story, but it's a hard position to be in.

    I will say this... keep writing. ;)

    Take care,
    Abel
  17. NarCranor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2005
    star 2
    Thanks, means a lot to me.
  18. NarCranor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2005
    star 2
    Well, unrelated to our RPG supplements, but page 11 of our comic was posted today, you guys ought to check it out. Also, we are starting to compile the padawan chapter, which will be released on feb 15th!
  19. NarCranor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2005
    star 2
    Fandom Comics is very pleased to announce that our second chapter in our Clone Wars Sourcebook is now available for download. We're also ecstatic to inform you all that contained within this 27 page Jedi Order sub-chapter are three pieces of exclusive artwork by the very talented TJ Colligan (pin-up: Etain Tur-Mukan), our very own Steve Criado (pin-up: Olee Starstone) and Holly Laing (pin-up: Ydra Kilwallen Sibwarra). So what are you waiting for? Download the new chapter already! Enjoy!

    As promised the padawan chapter went up today (actually about 6 hours early!) Anyway, would appreciate any comments you guys might have!
  20. sabarte Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    Looks very nice. One thing I did catch was Zonder's gender -he's actually male (yeah, I know, makes no sense, Selonian, etc.)
  21. NarCranor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2005
    star 2
    You SURE Zonder is a male? I read through both webstrips numerous times and never really found a reference to gender specifically. So naturally I figured it had to be a female, since they are that much more prevelant. The way he draws it, it looks much much more like a togorian anyway, but hey. Anyway, I suppose I can do another check in the webstrips to see if they ever identify gender. If you know the strip number, itd be helpful.
  22. sabarte Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    Here. His different looks could be explained by being of a different caste than most (iirc breeders were bigger in TCT, though Wookiepedia disagrees with me on this). But it seems like the Corellian trilogy Selonians were pretty much being ignored in favor of "Daley-style" and a more cat-like appearance.
  23. Jedi_Matt Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2002
    star 4
    hey, i had a look at it this morning before i went to work, that was 10 hours ago, i only got to skim through, but nice work, really good stuff. I've recently got most of the clone wars comic books (TPBs?), and seeing some of the padawans in there that fought at Saleucami I think it was, where that girl mace was gonna take on went out like a punk, was nice...
  24. JediAlly Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2000
    star 4
    I got it last night and it looks good. Having Dev Sibwarra's mother there was a definite surprise.

    There seems to be some confusion on the gender of two of the Padawans. One is Zonder. Well, I just found confirmation that Zonder is a male. In EA:R #91, Tremayne said, "You should ahve taught the mangy beast to hide his presence as well as you can".

    The other is Codi Ty. This is from Codi Ty's entry:

    Padawan Ty understood his errs upon his return, and despite
    Padawan Allara's protest, was expelled from the order. Upon
    hearing that Codi showed no regret, Yoda reminded him that he
    had much to regret, including the death of her new master.

    My understanding was that Codi Ty was female.
  25. JediAlly Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2000
    star 4
    I did another check. I believe Kass Tod was a Zabrak, not a human. She had the Zabrak horns on her forehead.