Crazy Theory or could this have some truth in it?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Jedi_Learner, May 14, 2003.

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  1. Jedi_Learner Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2002
    star 5
    According to Box Office Mojo Episode I made a massive total gross of $431,088,297 while Episode II didn't fare as well. One reason could be that Episode I was the first Star Wars movie ever made in several years while Episode II certain individuals here at the Jedi Council would claim that people didn't like the direction George Lucas was taking.

    Another reason someone could claim is that Children in their thousands went to the Cinema to watch Episode I several times because they loved the character Jar Jar Binks. When we get down to Episode II, some of these children could of watched Episode II once because Jar Jar Binks had such a small and insulting role for Ahmed Best.

    Could this be responsible for some of the less profits for Episode II and one of the reasons why Episode I made so much, or was this all going to happen? What do you think?
  2. yodaschum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 4
    Personally, there are so many reasons why Episode II lost so many fans:

    1. They saw Episode I, didn't like what they saw and when they heard Episode II was the same, decided they didnt like Star Wars anymore.

    2. The quality of the film is poor. It is not of the standard of the OT.

    3. Over saturation and reliance on special effects rather than script and story. NO ONE LIKES THIS.

    4. A different in style so different from the OT in script, visuals, actors/acting, that it can no longer be regarded as STAR WARS.

    All this has contributed to the demise of the thing.

    No one looks forward to it anymore, and no one, (at least no one in their right mind) is anticipating Episode III anymore, because we all know its going to be garbage.


    Jedi_Learner, I am sooo glad you created this thread for all us bashers and gushers to fight in and argue. :p
  3. Jedi_Learner Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2002
    star 5
    "Jedi_Learner, I am sooo glad you created this thread for all us bashers and gushers to fight in and argue."

    I have no interest in causing trouble anymore. One more banning, and I'm out of here. I have to be on my best behaviour at all times now. ;)

    Do you think Jar Jar might of affected Episode II with its profits, knowing that Jar Jar is held as a hero to most children and his small role upset them?
  4. DamonD Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    star 6
    AOTC's profits compared to TPM were better than ESB's compared to ANH, if that isn't too many initials to use :p

    But, in the spirit of this thread, I say no - it was the lack of Captain Tarpels in AOTC. I loved that guy :D
  5. Jedi_Learner Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2002
    star 5
    "No one looks forward to it anymore, and no one, (at least no one in their right mind) is anticipating Episode III anymore, because we all know its going to be garbage."

    I do look forward to Episode III. That must mean I'm one crazy person. Take it back. [face_plain] 8-}
  6. DARTH_CHINA Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2001
    star 5
    Well, TPM had a happy ending. AOTC had a sad ending & was more of a romance.

    Happy endings are often prefered. Well, that 's what I think about it. :p
  7. Scott3eyez Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 4
    I think the main reason for the lower box office were;

    1- Less hype than for TPM (for non-fans)
    2- Consequence of the backlash for TPM (for discgruntled fans who weren't going to watch Episode II more than once... or twice...)

    The combination of less Jar Jar and the higher certificate (in the UK, at least) might have had an effect, but not nearly as much as the two reasons above, IMHO.
  8. Clonetrooper1000 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2003
    star 3
    1. It is also less child-friendly; not just the certificate but the whole tone of the film.

    2. The focus on providing better cinematic experience meant it was shown in far less theatres than other films.

    3. The focus on the mythology of Star Wars. This aims the film at Star Wars fans more than the general public. Lucas is the first to admit that this is the main reason Episode II and III will be less succesful financially.

    4. The different cinema-going climate. Now there are several massive films taking big chunks of the market. Back in the late 90's usually one major film was to be a record breaker, like Titanic or TPM. However, now there are about three or four a year. In order for them to all make as much money as their late-90s predecessors, cinema attendance figures would have to multiply by three or four times. This has not happened and we now have several big-budget sci-fi/fantasy/super-hero flicks taking there bite of the BO every year.

    Yodaschum: "Personally, there are so many reasons why Episode II lost so many fans"

    Episode II never lost "so many fans", it merely lost members of the general movie-going public. You people still do not realise that Star Wars fans - with the exception of an extreme minority - LOVE the prequels. Just look at the opinion polls and statistics. Episodes II is aimed at the SW fans and they love it.

    Its also funny how you seem to think quality and financial success is really an important link. Some of the greatest films of all time remain box office flops, so it really does not have a major effect upon attendance figures

    Yodaschum: "that it can no longer be regarded as STAR WARS."

    Well it IS Star Wars whether you like it or not. I could easily say that "I hate ROTJ" (I do like it though). If I felt ROTJ fell below the standard of the first two pictures, does that mean it is not Star Wars, of course not. Only the creator holds the right to say what is in his story and what is not. FACT!
  9. AdamBertocci Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    (1) Less hype. You could actually go about your life for two minutes without having a Star Wars poster flung in your face.

    (2) TPM made a ridiculous frickin' amount of money, one that was hard to top by any standards.

    (3) AOTC was less of a kids' movie.

    (4) TPM had a happy, uplifting ending. Audiences like that.


    Rick McCallum loves you!
  10. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    Episode II never lost "so many fans", it merely lost members of the general movie-going public. You people still do not realise that Star Wars fans - with the exception of an extreme minority - LOVE the prequels. Just look at the opinion polls and statistics. Episodes II is aimed at the SW fans and they love it.

    Love? I disagree. Polls and statistics, especially those on the Internet, are cluttered by fanboys - just look at what has happened to the AOTC forum where PT gushers have all but scared away everyone who dares have a critical opinion of AOTC. I know many people who are crazy about the OT, and they all more or less dislike/hate the PT, myself included. I think it's more correct to claim that those few who do "love" the PT are all gathered on the Internet where they can escape being laughed at for playing with their Jar Jar Binks action figures while real men and women can continue having a social life and play with our cool Darth Vader action figures.
  11. jasperjones Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    I think it did less well due to the law of diminishing returns. This is the fifth sequel and I think TPM put SW in perspective for many. I saw TPM nine times at the cinema and AOTC 4 times. And I think AOTC is much better. It's just that I realize that these new films can't match the feelings I have when watching ANH and ESB. And I unfortunately agree with Ree Yees. Everybody I know considers the OT as lovable classics. No one I know thinks the prequels are as good(yes I know I can't speak for the entire world) and you can see the same view inherent in the media. If you personally think the films are as good or better then I respect your opinion. I actually think both prequels are good films but many people backlash because they are not what they wanted them to be(myself included).

    And considering the main box office demographic consists of males aged between 16 and 25 I would have thought that less jar Jar would have equalled more money. Does it matter though. AOTC still made a stack of cash. It's a good film with many great moments a few awful moments.
  12. Clonetrooper1000 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2003
    star 3
    Ree Yees: "Polls and statistics, especially those on the Internet, are cluttered by fanboys"

    Why do you people always have to debunk everything that goes against your point of view. There is obviously a massive number of Star Wars fans that utilise the internet and because there is such a large amount, opinion polls provide a reasonable picture of how Star Wars fans have accepted the prequel trilogy so far.

    Ree Yees: "just look at what has happened to the AOTC forum where PT gushers have all but scared away everyone who dares have a critical opinion of AOTC."

    Is this an excuse for the fact that there is not actually that many people who dislike the SW prequels on these boards.

    Ree Yees: "I know many people who are crazy about the OT, and they all more or less dislike/hate the PT"

    Never said there wasn't many. I only said there was an extreme minority. Because of the large fanbase this number is a small minority, even although there could be a lot of them.

    Ree Yees: "that those few who do "love" the PT"

    There is an absolute wealth of proof to say that the prequels were accepted by a majority of critics and fans around the world. So why do you create things like this?

    If you take a look at the bigger picture (and the proof), Star Wars fans love the prequel trilogy.
  13. yodaschum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 4
    Do you think Jar Jar might of affected Episode II with its profits, knowing that Jar-Jar is held as a hero to most children and his small role upset them?

    Maybe. Unless I have scientific proof (in the form of a demographical survey) of this, I cannot say for certain. What do I think? I think the removal of Jar-Jar, if anything, should have boosted the films profits, as he was the main complaint from viewers of TPM. Finding out Jar-Jar wasn't in it as much, should have encouraged them to give AOTC a chance. The fact is, it made more or less half of what TPM made; Jar-Jar or no Jar-Jar.

  14. DamonD Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    star 6
    1- Less hype than for TPM (for non-fans)
    2- Consequence of the backlash for TPM (for discgruntled fans who weren't going to watch Episode II more than once... or twice...)


    Yeah, I guess that makes sense. But the lack of Tarpels is still the main reason ;)

    God, Ree Yees, did Lucas run over your dog or something? I can understand someone not liking a film but you seem to be channeling some pretty serious hate there.


    EDIT: To help out, here are the worldwide grosses for each PT film :

    Star Wars: Episode I $925,588,297
    Star Wars: Episode II $648,053,815

    So, AOTC made roughly 70% of TPM's total gross.
  15. jasperjones Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    Again I have to disagree Clonetrooper. I don't think the media and public have accepted the prequels on the same level they did the OT. Virtually every comment made in the media towards the PT has a negative slant. I certainly don't think they are anywhere near as bad as they have been made to be in certain areas but I don't see how people can think that the PT is as popular as the OT. Not that it should really matter anyway. the only opinion that matters is your own. I don't know how one could prove this either way. You could have a poll on the mainsite. I think that would be split down the middle, possibly even more people going for the prequels. Most of the traffic here is now generated by interest one way or another in the PT I imagine. If the independent movie sites such as Dark Horizons, Chud, Cinescape and Aintitcool all ran polls you would start to get a wider picture, but then most of their visitors are probably quite anti PT. You would need to poll various mainstream and geek entertainment sites. I would be very surprised if the PT even came close to the esteem in which the OT is held. Put it this way, in the UK, whenever there is a greatest films poll the OT is always at the top. ESB was recently voted the greatest film of all time by the UK public. The prequels struggle to be voted as the top film of their year. Again, none of this really matters, as they are all just movies and anybody's opinion is as valid as the next, but I do believe that the general consensus is that much as ROTJ was widely held as the worst of the OT, the prequels are held as worse than the OT.
  16. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    The main reason for the backlash in the first place is that some fans expected the prequels to be even better than the originals while Lucas was simply shooting for "just as good." Because the prequels didn't blow them away the way the originals did in 1977, some fans are now under the misconception that STAR WARS has somehow failed to live up to its potential, that the legacy has been spoiled.

    As for the drop-off, sequels rarely do better than their prececessor. Heck, even THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK barely managed to get half the business that A NEW HOPE did (and the critics weren't too keen on it, either), and the drop off from THE PHANTOM MENACE to ATTACK OF THE CLONES was considerably less than it was from ANH to ESB!

    Now while one could take these numbers and conclude that fans are disappointed with the prequels, this doesn't explain why both prequel films have been box office hits and top DVD sellers, why TPM's broadcast television debut was a ratings boon for FOX, and why AOTC did great business in Imax despite competing with its own DVD release nor why The Cartoon Network has commissioned a series of short STAR WARS cartoons to be aired throughout the coming two years.

    People claim that the prequels are unpopular and disappointing, but there are a lot of clues that point to the contrary. In fact, the only place you can find the bitter negativity is in the press (which everyone should be well aware does not represent the majority view) and on the internet. How to explain this?
  17. yodaschum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 4
    Episode II never lost "so many fans", it merely lost members of the general movie-going public. You people still do not realise that Star Wars fans - with the exception of an extreme minority - LOVE the prequels. Just look at the opinion polls and statistics. Episodes II is aimed at the SW fans and they love it.

    Who are you to say this? The fact is, the orignal Star Wars trilogy grossed over $2 billion worldwide and lets not even get started on money earned from merchandise. It was the biggest cultural phenomenon the world has ever seen, even bigger than LOTR or The Matrix is now. Star Wars toys were on every shelf, in every store, and they couldn't cope with the demand. The soundtracks were the biggest selling soundtracks ever released, and the most popular soundtracks of all time. We were all "fans" of the OT. Everyone. Compare that with now, where the toys aren't even ordered for the stores because they don't sell, and the soundtrack doesnt sell at all. The prequels will likely gross around half of what the OT did, and you tell me its just the movie going public who has lost interest? You say the fans love it; well I say they don't love it and many have walked away and turned their backs on it in disgust.

    Its also funny how you seem to think quality and financial success is really an important link. Some of the greatest films of all time remain box office flops, so it really does not have a major effect upon attendance figures .

    But we're not talking about some obscure arthouse movie here. This is Star Wars, it's made to entertain masses of people. it invented the term "family blockbuster", it's made in the same vain as movies like X2,Spiderman, LOTR and The Matrix, and yet those movies are consistently " out-Star-Warsing" them, not only in box office grosses, but also in entertainment value. I go to see X2 today, and I walk away happy and entertained; I go see Star Wars AOTC, and I walk away grumbling, unhappy and with a sore head from all the contradictions in the story, with the OT.
  18. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    I go see Star Wars AOTC, and I walk away grumbling, unhappy and with a sore head from all the contradictions in the story, with the OT.

    Sounds like a personal problem to me.
  19. yodaschum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 4
    Sounds like a personal problem to me.

    The usual constuctive, Durwood argument.

    EDIT: Its not my problem, its George Lucas's problem, when he finds out he's lost his entire audience for Episode III. I can live with it, as there is so much better stuff out there to amuse me.
  20. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    "Hate" is a strong word, DamonD. I was actually not trying to be that harsh with that post (hence the line about real men playing with Vader toys :)), but YES, it does feel like Lucas has driven into my dog's very ribcages, back and forth.
  21. yodaschum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 4
    Not even the owners of theforce.net like the prequels, so dont tell me the fans arent turning away.
  22. jasperjones Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    Yeah, but Durwood, do you see that there are a lot of people who have the same "problem". Personal or not there are lots of people who feel the same way. And it isn't just the press who views the prequels as inferior. how many people do you talk to who prefer the prequels to the originals. I don't know one, and believe me, I've tried convincing them that the PT is SW business as usual. Until I didn't believe it myself and couldn't be bothered.

    I accept that a lot of the percieved flaws are to do with the baggage you take into these films. When I grew up watching them I wasn't expecting a classic, I just loved the space ships and the action. Then as I grew up I found that I could look at the films on another level. These films were a modern myth, and even better, you could openly admit to loving them without being called a geek(no longer possible, sniff. I finally realize what it must feel like to be a trekkie). I didn't care if some of the acting was dodgy or some of the lines were crap. Now I think " laugh it up fuzz ball" is an absolute classic. I'm sure there were jaded 27 year olds back in 1980 wincing at that line. I watch the prequels and I see really great spectacles, with all the right names and noises but something is missing. I don't really care about the characters. I can see that some parts are really pretty poor.

    But hey, I put ROTJ on the other day and I could say much the same thing. Overall good, some is great, some is crap. Trouble is, where is the absolute smash out of the park classic? Maybe because I am hoping for it it will never come. I would love to love episode 3 unconditionally, not because it's SW. If it is then it puts a great gloss on the PT overall. If not, we're left with 3 ROTJ's. Which is no bad thing. They're all good films just not the classics many were hoping for. And I don't think it was unfair to hope that.

    Does that mean there is anything wrong with me? No. Does that mean I'm not a true SW fan? I asked that to my brother and he hasn't stopped laughing? Is there anything wrong with loving the PT? No. Did AOTC make less money because there was less Jar jar? Absolutely not. As Durwood pointed out, sequels rarely make moe than their predecessor.
  23. Jedi_Learner Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2002
    star 5
    "I think it's more correct to claim that those few who do "love" the PT are all gathered on the Internet where they can escape being laughed at for playing with their Jar Jar Binks action figures while real men and women can continue having a social life and play with our cool Darth Vader action figures."

    Please Ree Yees, if you cannot be nice to people that like the Prequels and accept that people indeed like them, then don't bother to post on these issues. Unless you can respond to this issue without making snide comments about people that like the Prequels, leave this topic and don't come back. I like the Prequels and Jar Jar Binks, but I don't get laughed apon by my friends and I certainly don't play around with any Jar Jar figures. I don't have any.

    Thank you everyone for your replies. I didn't expect this topic to get so many replies so quick. :)
  24. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    how many people do you talk to who prefer the prequels to the originals.

    I have one friend who likes STAR WARS because of the prequels and another who thinks ATTACK OF THE CLONES is the best film in the saga, so there ya go.
  25. Jedi_Learner Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2002
    star 5
    "I think the removal of Jar-Jar, if anything, should have boosted the films profits, as he was the main complaint from viewers of TPM."

    Wasn't the main audience for Episode I intended to be for children? Wasn't Episode I made for children and a time of innocence, and when we get to Episode II it gets more darker and mysterious?

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