Crazy Theory or could this have some truth in it?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Jedi_Learner, May 14, 2003.

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  1. spring_warm Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2003
    star 2
    But your sister can still be saved, while the Star Wars saga is lost forever.


    Its not yours to lose, these arent your films, they are george lucas's. He is just letting us see them.


  2. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    yodaschum-

    How about asking Durwood what he meant by the comment before accusing me of double-standards, mmkay?

    ..and that's precisely the problem. Star Wars has now become some cult, that spotty nerds, who live in there parents basement enjoy, along with Star Trek Voyager and Deep Space Nine, and all the other Star Trek crap they dish out to feed "Trekkies". Star Wars used to be about film-making, and the art of film-making. Now its a cheap franchise for nerds, who read the in-bred universe books, fantasising about being in the Jedi Academy, and dressing up as Darth Vader around the house.

    Speaking as a non-spotty, non-nerd who has had my own (rather nice) apartment for nine years, and doesn't conform to the stereotype proposed, and who *still* feels that SW is meant for me and meant for my enjoyment, this is strike two in the generalization fest. The films are still about film-making, but the methods have changed; there are many new directions in which things can go technically and thematically. These aren't necessarily by definition "good" (new does not always equal better), but they represent choices nonetheless - choices to develop an existing story in new ways. Assaulting the fans who still find meaning and enjoyment in the films is attacking the posters as a means of denigrating the films. That's a no-no.

    Again, these types of comments are simply flame-baiting. Strike three and your out for 24 innings.
  3. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    I'm not sure it's accurate to say that The Silmarillion was aimed at fans; I'm no expert on Tolkein but from what I know - The Silmarillion was something he worked on nearly all of his life, before and after LOTR, and he never finished it, right? What was published was an edited together version by his son(?).

    But I don't think it was aimed at 'fans', unless 'fans' just means readers, fans didn't really exist in those days, and Tolkein didn't really consider them when he was writing, I don't think.

    And I'm not so sure that Lucas is aiming the PT at the 'fans', he does throw in the odd cameo or reference knowing that fans will pick up on it, and it'll also make good copy in his magazines.

    Lucas wants as big an audience as possible. I don't think Lucas is that concerned with the fans, if he was he'd put out the original OT on DVD ;)

    As for Lucas letting us see 'his' films - Hey, I paid for my ticket!

    g
  4. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    Well, if you want to crank up the dramatic rhetoric several billion notches I guess.

    Would you rather I gave the example that my sister died or something instead?


    DamonD, I was kidding.."tongue in cheek" or whatever they call it :)

  5. yodaschum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 4
    Perhaps you could give examples of what you mean. There is nothing wrong with the parallels in the story - that is 100% intentional and effective. There was effects and dialogue reused on Episodes V and VI from Episode IV, as well as with the prequels. So I don't see your point

    I mean that everything is re-cycled from the Originals. The prequels don't add anything new to Star Wars. I think Lucas must sit down and think, "hmmm, OK, so its a Star Wars movie, so we've got to have lightsabers, laser guns, Tatooine, high speed chases, bounty hunters, the dark side of the force (and the light), yoda, skywalkers, armoured vehicles and ships, droids, 3p0 and R2, copied lines of dialogue e.g. "I have a bad feeling about this", land battles, death stars (droid control ships) and so on and so on. There is too much that is simply copied over from the originals; I'd say about 70% of the films. The stuff that IS new, is incredibly boring and slightly confusing - "handmaidens, politics, The Senate, Anakin The chosen one, midichlorians, The Queen (how can a Queen be a Queen, when she has a representative in the galactic Senate?). There is too much co-incidence ; Anakin falls in love and marries Padme, who (*shock, gasp, horror*) knew Senator Palpatine because he was her Senator on Naboo, who also knows Anakin, who built the droid C-3po on Tatooine, where Luke comes from. ANakins Mother, marries Clieg Larrs, who's son and daughter in law is Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru, who know Luke and "Old Ben". Old Ben turns out to be Anakins master. Meanwhile R2-D2 was actually part of Padmes droid team whilst she was a Queen. Owen knows 3-po because he worked on the farm for 10 years, but when he meets him again in ANH, he doesnt recognise him. Jabba The Hutt used to run pod-races on Tatooine where Anakin competes in the races. Meanwhile, Jango Fett is cloned into what will become the stormtroopers from ANH onwards. All very well, except Jango Fett is Boba Fetts Dad, who takes his fathers armour and wears it. What I am getting at, is all this co-incidence is extremely poor writing and not healthy. Why not actually come up with something NEW? I can't believe Lucas thinks this is cool.

    So you see everything is copied from the OT. The PT does not stand on its own merit. Of course its going to get worse because now Chewbacca will be in Episode III, where I expect we will learn he knew Anakin because him and the wookies fought alongside the Jedi in the clone war.

    There is nothing wrong with the parallels in the story - that is 100% intentional and effective

    OK, now maybe you can elaborate, why this is all intentional and effective. I'd love to know.
  6. Jedi_Learner Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2002
    star 5
    Were George Lucas not to have familiar characters and action similiar to the Original Trilogy you yodaschum would be jumping on George Lucas complaining they don't have the Star Wars feeling, which is different from person to person. You claim that the Politics, Anakin being the chosen one and Midichlorians are boring. What would you do to make the Prequels more exciting. I dare you to tell us your dreams.

    [face_mischief]
  7. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    I agree to a certain extent with Yodaschum ; there are certainly far too many coincidences with the prequels, and there is little that is fresh.

    But the elements that ARE in fact fresh, do add to the Star Wars galaxy: The Senate politics, the Trade Federation, Darth Maul, the handmaidens, Obi-Wan's detective work, these are elements that are "fresher" than the rest of the prequel films, and as such I find them more enjoyable, because they expand upon the originals instead of rehashing them. Not that all of this stuff is *good* however, but it is at least a little different.

    The problem is that it seems George thinks adding characters create a continuity, or bond, with the originals, while instead it makes the story less believable.

    In my opinion, it would be better if he kept just the absolute necessary "connections" (like Anakin + Padmé, Obi-Wan being Anakin's master), and excluded silliness such as Anakin building 3P0, Anakin living on Tatooine, Qui-Gon Jinn's role as it stands etc.
  8. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    YodasChum does have a point, there are too many connections going on, if there was some dramatic/poetic resonance that'd be okay, but a lot of these connections don't even feel right - I mean what does Anakin and Shmi want with a protocol droid? It's as if Lucas couldn't figure out how to fit the droids in and has just shoe-horned them in any old place.

    g
  9. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    And that is what's so weird; how he couldn't come up with for example, Threepio being Amidala's or Palpatine's, and Artoo being, for instance, a droid Anakin got from a space pilot, or perhaps something else.
  10. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "Were George Lucas not to have familiar characters and action similiar to the Original Trilogy you yodaschum would be jumping on George Lucas complaining they don't have the Star Wars feeling,"

    but they dont have that Star Wars feeling to a lot of fans, myself included.

    "You claim that the Politics, Anakin being the chosen one and Midichlorians are boring. What would you do to make the Prequels more exciting. I dare you to tell us your dreams."

    isnt it Lucas's job to make the prequels more exciting? he certainly is being paid well enough to make a film that fans would like. its not like its a difficult task either, what with a built in fanbase and the story already mapped out.
  11. DamonD Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    star 6
    its not like its a difficult task either, what with a built in fanbase and the story already mapped out.

    Whoa.
    "I'm out of it for a little while, everybody
    gets delusions of grandeur..."

    A fanbase is a double-edged sword, to say the least. And the story was never mapped out in any great detail.

    Looking forward to your multi-billion dollar franchise ;)
  12. Clonetrooper1000 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2003
    star 3
    So Yodaschum's criticisms of the PT fall into three categories:

    1. Re-using things from the OT
    2. Not enough fresh ideas
    3. Too many co-incidences

    1. Here's a list of stuff you used as examples of reusing things from the OT.

    Yodaschum: "lightsabers, laser guns, Tatooine, high speed chases, bounty hunters, the dark side of the force (and the light), yoda, skywalkers, armoured vehicles and ships, droids, 3p0 and R2, copied lines of dialogue e.g. "I have a bad feeling about this", land battles, death stars"

    My point is that how the hell can the PT be guilty of reusing these things when episodes in the OT did as well. For example, the sequels in the OT re-used EVERY SINGLE ONE of your examples. Just read through the list and quote one that was not re-used in a sequel of the OT. Exactly, if your opinion was to hold any weight, then surely the OT would be just as guilty of this.

    Its also funny how you do not criticise ROTJ for recycling stuff from ANH. ROTJ is without doubt the most guilty candidate if you feel this is a criticism of the prequels. Eg, Tatooine, Space Battle, Death Star were all obviously modelled on there use in ANH.

    2. Here is what You said about the new stuff:

    Yodaschum: "The stuff that IS new, is incredibly boring and slightly confusing - "handmaidens, politics, The Senate, Anakin The chosen one, midichlorians, The Queen (how can a Queen be a Queen, when she has a representative in the galactic Senate?)."

    Well Lucas's story was about Anakin's fall and the Emperor's rise to power. How could you avoid using a political plot-line? Besides, the senate/Palpatine scenes are extremely well done and Ian McDiarmid carries many of them so well.

    It is funny how the return of the 'chosen one' prophecy, which is also seen in The Matrix (Neo), LOTR (Aragorn) and even the Bible itself (Christ) is seen to be bad simply because it is used in Star Wars. Where is the logic?

    Another point, ruling monarchs and governments have always had representatives to 'represent' them where they are not able to be. A perfect example is my own country where Queen Elizabeth II has representatives in the House of Lords and even the EU.

    3. Yodaschum regarding coincidence: "Anakin falls in love and marries Padme, who (*shock, gasp, horror*) knew Senator Palpatine because he was her Senator on Naboo, who also knows Anakin"

    Eh? :confused:. We see there paths cross and they are connected in many ways before Anakin and Padme fall in love, how is it a coincidence that two people who know each other should connect. Two important politicians and one important jedi and 2 happen to fall in love. Where is the logic in your point??

    The one point I do agree on was the Ani/C-3PO link, which was pretty stupid, but one error like that is not enough to bring the film down.

    Yodaschum: "ANakins Mother, marries Clieg Larrs, who's son and daughter in law is Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru, who know Luke and "Old Ben"."

    :confused: Excuse me, but isn't it reasonable that Luke is taken there by Ben because Padme knows them, trusts them and in a sense they are 'related'.

    Yodaschum: "Owen knows 3-po because he worked on the farm for 10 years, but when he meets him again in ANH, he doesnt recognise him."

    Well considering he is a completely different color and there are so many protocol droids that look EXACTLY the same as him and probably thousands with the same code numbers is it unreasonable that he assumes its a different droid?

    Yodaschum: "Jabba The Hutt used to run pod-races on Tatooine where Anakin competes in the races."

    Jabba was always supposed to hold importance on Tatooine. You do not see him involved in any crazy co-incidental relationships with others. He is just there. It also makes sense how Vader is perhaps familiar with who Jabba is in ESB.

    And the last point -->

    I said "There is nothing wrong with the parallels in the story - that is 100% intentional and effective"

    So Yodaschum replied "OK, now maybe you can elaborate, why this is
  13. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    Well of course ROTJ IS guilty of recycling stuff, having another Death Star is hardly original.

    But as for the PT - for me the one connection that is overused by far is Tatooine. "If there's a bright center to the universe you're on the planet it's farthest from." Anakin is born there, it's famous for pod races, Jabba, the galaxy's biggest gangster lives there, Luke grew up there, OWK spent 20 years there as a hermit, 3PO has spent at least 10 years there, etc.
    I know Lucas wanted to replay certain themes on a different chord and all that, but I'm sick of Tatooine. And it looks like we'll be seeing it again in the next one, that'll be 5 out of 6.

    g
  14. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    Funny, earlier I was thinking how great Tatooine is, and how great it is that it's used so much. It's such a humble planet, very remote compared to many other planets in the galaxy, and not very loved by its inhabitants. Yet it is so important to the overall story. So many seemingly unimportant events happen there, but those events have great echoes throughout the story.


    Good move, George. :D
  15. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "Looking forward to your multi-billion dollar franchise"

    if my opinion holds no weight because i dont have a multi-billion dollar franchise, then yours doesnt either for the same reason. how do you know what makes a good multi-billion dollar franchise if you havent come up with one yourself? am i only allowed to have an opinion on whether a meal is good or bad if i have made one myself?

    nonsense.
  16. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    I think Yodaschum's point about recycling is that the PT is a SW trilogy on it's own, set long before the OT, so George had more than enough reason to make the films fresher. However, some of the items mentioned, and in particular lightsabers, should of course always be in a SW movie :)

    And if I'm wrong and this isn't what Yodaschum meant, it's a least my opinion :p
  17. DamonD Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    star 6
    DrEvazan, my problem was that you seemed to think that writing a new trilogy of SW would be a piece of cake. Don't agree.

    That's your opinion, I don't agree. Don't change your opinion if you don't want to, but I'm not buying it myself.
  18. Scott3eyez Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 4
    >>>A perfect example is my own country where Queen Elizabeth II has representatives in the House of Lords and even the EU

    Queen Elizabeth has a representative in the E.U.?

    Man, I'm glad I don't read those books...

    8-}
  19. yodaschum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 4
    I think Yodaschum's point about recycling is that the PT is a SW trilogy on it's own, set long before the OT, so George had more than enough reason to make the films fresher.

    Exactly. It turns out the old galaxy is just a kids version of the OT.

    However, some of the items mentioned, and in particular lightsabers, should of course always be in a SW movie .

    Of course lightsabers should be in a Star Wars movie, but when whole sequences are created, based solely on the fact that there are lightsabers in a scene (jedi army fighting droids, various duels) it becomes plainly obvious that there is no spark of originality left in the tank. Lightsabers should be something kept in the background, something that is just there, like a payhone or a mobile phone. Not, "LOOK EVERYONE, LIGHTSABERS!!!!!LOOK EVERYONE, LIGHTSABERS!!!!!LOOK EVERYONE, LIGHTSABERS!!!!!LOOK EVERYONE, LIGHTSABERS!!!!!LOOK EVERYONE, LIGHTSABERS!!!!!LOOK EVERYONE, LIGHTSABERS!!!!!".
  20. Jedi_Learner Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2002
    star 5
  21. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    The OT seems pretty "kiddie" to me...


  22. yodaschum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 4
    My point is that how the hell can the PT be guilty of reusing these things when episodes in the OT did as well. For example, the sequels in the OT re-used EVERY SINGLE ONE of your examples. Just read through the list and quote one that was not re-used in a sequel of the OT. Exactly, if your opinion was to hold any weight, then surely the OT would be just as guilty of this.

    The Death Star was not re-used in ESB.
  23. DarthSil Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2003
    star 4
    Yeah but it showed up again in ROTJ, didn't it?
  24. yodaschum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 4
    Exactly, and ROTJ is where things started to go wrong. Concepts started being re-used in place of new ideas, story and strong writing. this was done because, it was simply "good enough", a tradition which has been passed on to the new films. Why give us the same stuff over and over again, whilst at the same time, the story and writing decreases in quality?
  25. DarthSil Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2003
    star 4
    It's my fave Star Wars film. Whoops.
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