ST Crow Café

You're not making any coherent point here at all. It's all "but what about" and bringing in something tangential.
Please be clear if you want to have a discussion; disagreeing is fine, but avoiding specifics isn't.

Are you saying, and please be clear on this, and give reasons, that the small girl is not Rey?

 

Please keep up. I don't have an opinion on wether the little girl is Rey or not. It may be a false memory, it may be something she physically saw and is remembering, it may be her from something earlier than what we suppose, it may be just her being left on Jakku. What I am stating is that if we're supposed to believe that a 5 year old girl has been living on Jakku for circa 15 years, and somehow can become a powerful force user through osmosis, then it's weak storytelling IMO. That it may be misdirection was the point, that Abrams likes to make these kind of things woolly for the sake of creating mystery is what I was inferring... and that I wouldn't be surprised if Rey is actually a fully fledged force user who may/may not have a clouded past... and that she is perhaps already known to Kylo.

 

"It may be a false memory"

Despite the patronising tone, it's clearly you who hasn't kept up. Your vague notions around misdirection show a lack of understanding of storytelling. It'd make no sense at all to use a mere glimpse of what is OBVIOUSLY Rey's history as misdirection via it being a "false memory"

It's your lack of clarity that's the problem here, not my understanding of either the scenes or your interpretation of what they could mean.
If you think it would be poor storytelling, well, that's valid. I disagree on that. But whether it's poor story telling or not, the story is very, very clearly that a very young Rey was left on Jakku, and she gains her ability to consciously use the force throughout the duration of the movie. She may have had training before being abandoned on Jakku (in fact I think that that's likely) but you've not even begun to make a decent case for any other interpretation.

 

It's clearly Rey and the visual storytelling is clear on this but doesn't spoon feed.

Just before Rey goes in to the dungeon, they show you her distinctive hair braids... Then when you hear young Rey and see her railing against Unkar Plutt (MVS has nothing to do with any of this - you see Unkar's arm and hear his voice) you see her with the exact same braids. You also hear Old Ben call Rey, then as she falls back into the dungeon you hear a younger Kenobi saying "These are your first steps". There is nothing to suggest it's a false memory. This is mystery at present - intentionally loo to be resolved in episode 8 (or maybe 9 but it feels like something they need to unravel fairly quickly I think.

Given the fact that both Kylo and Luke seem to know who she may be (though Kylo is keeping those cards very close to suggest) I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that she was at the academy and I think it's highly possible Kylo (or more accurately) Ben Solo that stranded her on Jakku - her family, promising to return - I think it's telling that she never mentions parents (though Kylo mentions a father) but family. Sparing and stranding Rey would be the kind of weakness Kylo is trying to purge before he can complete his training and also the kind of weakness he would hide from Snoke.

Maz senses the force in Rey and tells her how to let it guide her. I think Maz knows exactly who she is one the saber calls to her but it's not her place to reveal that.

We know that she taps into the force in the interrogation and can match Kylo. Kylo says she is powerful with the force. We know she in an innate match for Kylo. It's clear memories have been suppressed (or I suspect, blocked by Kylo somehow). I mean, Luke has had, what, one session with Old Ben and can blow up the Death Star? Anakin can pod race and pilot and shoot the Droid Control ship based on zero training at all. I don't see any issue with Rey letting the force help guide her when we know she can fight anyway and Kylo is already carrying a couple of wounds.

And if she is Luke's daughter then we know she's probably at least been around the Force and the Jedi before Kylo wiped them out and we also know the Force would be very strong with her.

 

I've seen the film twice so far, and I've not heard Obi Wan speak as yet, weird.

 

As simple as that....it's logical while keeping some question left unanswered for the next 2 episodes.

 

Yeah - it might arguably be frustrating not to get the answers yet (I think this is not dissimilar to the Empire ending on that front) but I think it's safe to assume we will get the answers.

After 3 viewings, I think the clues are heavily point towards Luke being Rey's father and Kylo being the one to strand his cousin.

You can hear Yoda talking about the Force as she runs down the Cloud City corridor, then you hear Old Ben yell "Rey!" then younger Kenobi saying "These are your first steps" as she falls back on the floor and before Maz runs up to her (does this mean Rey Kenobi might be on the cards or simply that we may well see some kind of Old/ Young Kenobi vision in 8).

I think that with so much already going on with the Ben Solo background and Snoke and everything, they decided not to give any more answers that would need explanation that would only overwhelm everything further. By holding back on the answers yo udon't need to explain anything until 8. To me, you can tell Kylo suspects who she might be when he force pulls that officer towards him. And the way Luke looks at her suggests to me he knows exactly who she is.

Maz practically spells it out in the tunnel when she talks about Luke's saber that was once his father's and now it's calling to Rey.

I mean, Rey and Ren are practically yin and yang, and that symbolism is underscored as they lock arms and blades in their final fight. It is light vs dark, a motif that runs throughout the film. Even their opening costumes are reflections of the other.

As for the vision - I think it's possible Kylo is saving young Rey from the warrior he skewers (possibly even a Knight of Ren).

EDIT with new info!

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/12/20/jj-abrams-reveals-obi-wan-and-yoda-are-star-wars-force-awakens

Right this backs up the above points.

Firstly, there is no false memory: As Rey touches it, she is hit with an impressionistic wave of images and sounds that depict a cloaked Luke Skywalker in mourning, reaching out for support (or to comfort) R2-D2 beside a fire. She sees bodies scattered in a rainstorm at the feet of Kylo Ren and the masked and menacing Knights of Ren. She sees herself as a young girl, being left in the coarse hands of junk dealer Unkar Plutt on the desert world of Jakku.

And finally, they give the rationale for inclusion and omission:

As for what Rey’s dream sequence doesn’t reveal … Abrams and Kasdan said they knew they had to suggest her backstory, but everyone felt The Force Awakens would be the wrong place to dive too deeply into Rey’s past. “We’re hoping Rian Johnson can figure that out,” Kasdan joked. “We were really stymied!
Of course, they do know who Rey is, where she comes from, and why she was abandoned. But Abrams says part of the appeal of the new trilogy will be spreading out those revelations.
“Everyone who has seen these movies thinks about ‘I am your father …’ and ‘There is another …’,” the director said. “But neither of those things were in [1977’s original] Star Wars. Star Wars didn’t say Luke was the son of Vader. Star Wars didn’t say Leia was the sister of Luke. You didn’t understand what these references were: the Empire, dark times, Clone Wars. There were these things that were discussed that don’t get explained. George [Lucas] dropped you into a story and respected you to infer everything necessary to understand what you need to know.”
The Force Awakens does confirm the family relationships of villain Kylo Ren, and Abrams felt that was enough. “Can this movie actually also hold, ‘And Rey is this … And Finn is that … And this is where Poe is from …’ This is the first of a series. There is a story to be told. And it will be.”

Also they did you Oz, Guinness and McGregor to suggest that powerful force users were trying to connect to her.

 

I think that's an awfully generous way to explain Rey having those abilities and being an even match for Kylo. I don't believe there's anything in either ANH or TPM that suggests that Luke or Anakin could get to the same level without any formal training (although granted Luke's is compressed into a shorter journey). Rey having no training since circa the age of 5 is very problematic IMHO. I believe it's already diminished Kylo as a proper threat and will diminish him further if there's no rhyme or reason... as the natural conclusion is if Rey can do that without formal training, she can probably move planets by Ep VIII. And if it was Kylo that spared Rey, how old does that make Kylo when he turned? 15? How old is he supposed to be? I think he could pass as being 10 years older than Rey perhaps, but if we're now saying Kylo goes darkside and defeats the Jedi Academy at circa 15 years of age, then that becomes even more problematic.

 

You know, I was wrong about Rey being a Solo and I came here.

Now, where are all of you Rey Skywalker who kept claiming Rey was going to Luke to find her father? That the end of the movie would be an emotional reunion between father and daughter? That it would be the climax of the movie?

Nope. Nothing of that. The movie ended with the destruction of Starkiller Base, and Rey went on her way after accepting her destiny. She didn't run to meet daddy.

While all the Solo camp is "eating crow", we got the structure of the movie right. Lonely girl who longed for a family meets father (figure), loses father (figure), then accepts her destiny and is fuelled to battle the villain and to accept her destiny.

TFA was NOT the story of a girl looking for a family who finds daddy at the end, even if Luke ends up being her father.

But you guys are not going to come eat crow, right? Satipo, I'm looking at you, among many, many many others.

 

I don't know why anyone is eating crow about her parentage. All possibilities are still open. Yes. Even Solo. Han may be dead, but Kylo and Leia are not.

 

Satipo is spot on once more.

It never ceases to surprise me how people who are literate enough in film to clearly understand symbolism will take tiny, tiny insignificant things and blow them out of all proportion, while at the same time dismissing what is clearly written in as almost entry-level symbolism and foreshadowing.
Remember, the clues in these films won't be laid in such a way that they are impenetrable to all but the most analytical mind - the writers probably want bright ten year olds to be able to join the dots, too.

On second viewing, Han reacts several times with sadness and a hint of knowledge each time Rey divulges something about herself; he knew something about her. The fact that he and Leia don't discuss her suggests that she is not their daughter.
It'll be something that is speculated about over the next 18 months, and almost inevitably, when (as seems likely) Rey is revealed as Luke's daughter, many on here will see it as anti-climactic, when it isn't actually intended to be a great, unguessable secret; simply that the revelation didn't fit in this film, and they assume, rightly, that most people will not be obsessing over the details for several hours a day.
There's pretty much no revelation about Rey that is possible that won't definitely alienate some people who either want something that validates 18 months of speculation.

 

I've done an analysis, and nearly everything that's in the film was described (in one form or another) in the MSW rumors. Nearly everything (with the main missing detail being that Luke's location was not hidden in the lightsaber - but that was always vague). Now, there were some things in the rumors that didn't make it into the final cut (which makes sense, as the MSW rumors came from shooting documents from last summer), but otherwise, those who insisted on the MSW rumors being "misdirection" should be having a feast. Crow fritters as an appetizer, straight up crow as a main course, a side of crow, and a crow smoothie to wash it down. And crow pie for dessert, with some crow bitters as a digestif.

Bon appetit!

 

Very few said Rey was going with the intention of "meeting daddy"; let's not go using broad interpretations of people's views as a way to dismiss specific individuals.
Many months ago, MSW said that as far as he knows, this film contained to revelations around Rey's parentage. The Rey being Luke's daughter theory doesn't stand or fall by whether it has yet been revealed; indeed, by the end of the film, the possibility of her being a solo seems to have diminished a lot.

 

Are you suggesting that Rey being a very good pilot (aft telling Finn she's a pilot) as an adult woman who has had to be self sufficient for years, is more far fetched than Anakin being the only human being who can pod race at the age of 8?

 

Um, I don't feel the need to on anything but the Bespin saber. I'm certainly not going to eat crow on Rey Skywalker - 1) she may still be Rey Skywalker and 2) I just preferred that theory, I didn't suggest others were idiots for thinking differently. The ending was exactly as written about in the MSW reports.

 

This is going to be twisted into "Rey Skywalker" believers being retrospectively accused of believing Luke said "My baby girl", isn't it?

 

A lot of the theories on Rey being Luke's daughter were dependent on this father daughter ending.
A lot of people were betting on Rey being Luke because otherwise the ending, when she goes to meet Luke, would make no sense. They also thought that, since the question was Luke Skywalker, the ending would answer that question with him being Rey's father.

I don't dismiss opinions and I have never, ever, ever, claimed that Rey could not be Luke's daughter or that this opinion did not make any sense. In fact, I always thought it could work.

Nope. I just wanted some humility, especially when some of this people who were sure the ending would be this emotional father daughter reunion are here inviting people to come and eat crow.

 

Why? It's in the movie.

Kylo is shocked she can match him.

Kylo is packing a wound from the very powerful bowcaster and the wound Fin gave him. Rey clearly has more to her in her past, and Kylo is also still raw. His training will mirror Rey's. Could there have been another beat or two to foreshadow it better? Maybe. I think that was probably why she initially fought the kanjiklub guys on the freighter in the production info. As for ages, Kylo could be 17 when he turned if we go off Driver's age. I don't get this whole power levels issue. She let the force guide her in a duel. It worked for me and if it clearly (if functionally) set up in the film.

She is may well be Luke's kid.
We know she can fight already.
The Force is hugely strong with her and once she has awakened her powers are going stronger - so I would argue that she may well have had some training that Ben suppressed along with her memories.

I don't get any feeling of Kylo being diminished.

We know from the article quoted that they know who she is and why she was stranded - I suspect the answers will eradicate this "issue".

Yeah, specifically on the MSW issue where all sorts of insults were flying. Not theories.

 

DP

 

It's quite telling that Rey submits to the force after Kylo uses the phrase "you need a teacher"

 

I think that is Kylo realising Ben's past weakness could come back to haunt him whilst also knowing that his father was right about Snoke ultimately crushing him, so he's trying to bring her onside. I do think they could have maybe not used the word "the Force there..." Or even had someone speak to her with the Force instead perhaps before she focused and let the Force flow through her... That must have been on the table at one point but I guess she has yet to meet anyone who could do that... Maybe Maz? Luke feels like it would have given the game away?

 

No... where did I mention that exactly? I'm suggesting that Rey having the ability to do mind tricks and face off against, and pretty much beat down, Kylo Ren is far fetched.

 

The idea of anyone being able to do mind tricks is far fetched.
Rey is able to do so after discovering that she could resist mind probes, and effectively turn it against the attacker.

Considering that you seem to accept Anakin's inherent force use, I'm not sure what your grounds are for objecting to what Rey does, aside from your own preconceptions

 

Just thinking about it, imagine if both Rey and Ren had heard a voice (Luke? Anakin?) telling them to let go or something. That could have kept it mystical and given the final set up needed to fully sell it I think.

The mind trick is quick... But she does fail a couple of times, and again, I think once we find out who she is and where she comes from (i.e. possibly the academy and possibly Luke) then it will not seem like a leap. Also, it was a funny scene. And I love that you can tell it's Craig once you know. Voice and body language.

I think it will emerge that Rey has had training in the past and comes from a family strong in the Force - quite possibly Luke. If people can buy Anakin pod racing at 9 and blowing up the droid control centre (it's the unintentional aspect of that that spoils that moment for me) I do not see how they can have a strong issue against Rey when she is set up as a fighter and powerful force sensitive and we know Ren is carrying two wounds.

By the end of the Duel, until the ground breaks up, she's also clearly tapping into the dark side.

This John Williams article gives a great quote on Rey's character and when you apply this (which matches her portrayal onscreen) I have very little issue with the development of her powers:

It suggests a female adventurer, but with great strength. She’s a fighter, she’s infused with the Force

I would agree you could maybe set up some of her earlier luck with the Falcon or on the Freighter as being more guidance from the Force (maybe a line or two from someone else), maybe an extra beat or so with the staff and maybe have Luke or someone commune through the force as Kylo and Rey's blades are locked. But otherwise I think it's fine and I think once we learn who she is and why she was stranded it will be even more fine.

 

If Solo were still possible, I wouldn't be using this avatar. Face it, Rey Solo is dead.