Books CRUCIBLE by Troy Denning: The Official Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Ah yes, Vergere and her three sided blade.

 

Which, if you look at what subsequently transpired, turned out to be a rather accurate if fanciful assessment. In a galaxy currently without Sith―assuming Vergere knows nothing of Darth Krayt's budding attempts to begin the One Sith Order―the Mandalorians showed themselves to be one of the greatest factional threats to the Yuuzhan Vong. When it finally came to open war, Mandalore became the only world to defeat and repel a Yuuzhan Vong attack force without any external aid, and the Mandalorian Protectors alone were responsible for liberating entire worlds from the Vong, including Tholatin and Gyndine, the latter of which being a feat even the Galactic Alliance had failed to do previously.

(All three feats should also be noted as the creative additions of Abel G Pena via The History of the Mandalorians, established before the point A Practical Man was written.)


That said, this has strayed off topic for longer than it probably should have, so let's leave it at that and return to discussing the many shining merits of Crucible...

 

Oh, I got caught up in the metaphor trying to comprehend a blade with three sides, I didn't even get to the actual substance of the metaphor.

 

This is a three-sided knife.

 

Oh, I don't think the Jedi needed to talk to the media about it, and I am not saying they didn't question it; some of them did, like Obi-Wan and those Mace spoke to. I'm not sure what the Kaminoans would've done. Really, they didn't have a choice but to accept the army, but it was the appearance of them not caring that was wrong, not necessarily the acceptance itself. They could have at least gone out of their way to tell the clones how they felt, like Etain did. That's the thing. Anakin was friends with Rex, Obi-Wan was with Cody, and so on, but they never really got down in the dirt with the average clone, the guys with no badges on their armor, the ones who bled and died on the field. They never made a personal connection with each and every clone soldier they fought with, which at least Etain and Bardan did. Well, I take that back. Anakin seemed to have a good relationship with the entire 501st. But Obi-Wan never really befriended any clones besides Cody, Waxer, and Boil in his battalion, and then there were Jangotat and Alpha. But that's about it.

Okay, you got me there.

Well I haven't read Sacrifice in a while so I don't particularly remember how she did it.

Huh. Well, I think Boba did a pretty good job in the Vong war, making the Vong think the Mandos were working for them faithfully and then turning on them artfully and slaughtering them (and this isn't just a Traviss thing; see The Unifying Force, before any Traviss books, when the Mandalorian supercommandos slaughtered the Vong on a space station; Han even noted they took scalps).

"A piece of cloned or Mando backside." That's odd, because I'm pretty sure Mirta is Boba's granddaughter, and there is nothing vaguely creepy about their relationship. Etain...well, we won't got there; we all know she made some stupid decisions. Parja; she fell in love with a clone, yeah. And that's a bad thing?

I did. I am surprised. At how bad it turned out. Tahiri said they should disfigure Mirta...in other words, make her ugly and ruin her face. Jacen sensed that Mirta was terrified in the force. So yeah, she was afraid of her appearance being ruined. And yes, they got her to talk through threatening Boba, but that wasn't at all the point. Mirta shouldn't have even felt a moment's fear at her appearance being disfigured; she never gave any indication of caring about her appearance before Denning got his hands on her.

A lot of the Mandos were older in LOTF anyways. Boba was, anyways; Goran Beviin was at least in his fifties, and so was Novoc Vevut. In the Republic Commando series, Rav Bralor and Mij Gilamar were probably the youngest of the Mando crew, and they were at least in their late forties. Skirata and Vau were probably late sixties. So Mando warriors are definitely still kicking when they reach old age.

 

Just repeating what The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia stated, though it doesn't surprise me that there would be at least a few other worlds to match Mandalore's example.

Define "fun."

But seriously, there seems to be plenty to talk about when it comes to Crucible, and this is its thread, after all. Seems like it would be best to keep things from derailing and go on back to discussing the topic.

 

I've never understood this argument about the clones being slaves. They want to fight for the Republic. They love fighting. It's the only thing they like to do. Is it morally questionable, to say the least, that they were engineered to be that way? Absolutely, but the Jedi had nothing to do with that. The clones were already there. What were the Jedi supposed to do, deny them the sense of purpose hardwired into them on a genetic level? I guess there's clone deserters or whatever in TCW, but this idea was around before that, when all every clone ever wanted to do was to fight and die for the Republic.

The Sith created the clones; once the Jedi found them, I don't know what else they could have done with them besides a) leave them on Kamino, where they would probably be either euthanized or used as slaves, b) set them free, in which case they have nowhere to go, nothing to do, and a fundamental lack of purpose, or c) let them do what they were made to do and love doing. If a clone decides he wants to leave the army and they won't let him, that's a problem, but it seems a huge stretch to consider the vast majority of the clones slaves.

 

The clones don't only want to fight though. In True Colors, Commander Levet states that he wants to be a farmer. I understand the Jedi had nothing to do with the engineering of the clones (save for Sifo-Dyas ordering them through Plagueis and Sidious' manipulations), and that was my point in my previous post. The Jedi couldn't just reject the clones, but at the very least they could've provided for them. They don't get paid, there's no plans for their retirement, they age at a time that's two times as fast as a normal human (!)...the Jedi should've done something.

As I said, you're right, they couldn't just leave them on Kamino, and they did need soldiers, but still, wasn't it pretty convenient? I know they questioned it, but they should've looked into it, at least. And that's the problem: clones did try to leave. Know what happened? Palpatine sent hit squads after them. So the clones weren't being allowed to leave. They had to serve indefinitely, with no leave, and no pay, with no plans for what happened to them after the war. Ergo, slave army. Really, you should feel as badly for them as you should for the Jedi who got offed in Order 66. Maybe worse.

 

At the very heart of the issue is the idea that a group of human beings―sapient, intelligent beings capable of complex thought, reasoning, and self-awareness―are being forced into a role where their entire purpose in life is to perform a task that other people simply don't want to because there are less laborious and more expedient options available. Human history has shown us this scenario hundreds of times across thousands of years, whether in the ancient world of the Egyptians to the not-so-distant past of America, and the vast majority of us have never had any problem correctly labeling this as slavery.

The problem here is that people are allowing the concept of "clone" to cloud an otherwise very black and white issue. To say that the clones were born to do the job and know no other life, thus how can they suffer, is to dismiss the real-world suffering of slaves born to slave parents without ever knowing freedom. If you have the ability to look at the world around you and think critically, you will always eventually come to know that you are being deprived, even if you've never had the privilege of experiencing first-hand that which you have been denied. To say that the genetic modifications the clones underwent to pre-disposition them to be more obedient is what removes their eligibility to be slaves, is to engage in the same "sub-human" rhetoric that was used to justify white owners keeping black slaves. And look at the pre-birth genetic modifications we can make today, everything from eliminating problematic genes known to cause disease, to manipulating genes in order to alter a child's sex, enhance eye sight, or simply change a child's hair color. Not to mention the growing gene therapies being developed to fight numerous conditions in full-grown humans. At what point do these people cease to be human because their genes have been touched in some way by outside hands? The answer, of course, is never, and the same holds true for the clones.

When discussing their mental state, a number of critics will note that the clones have been denied free will. This isn't true―Attack of the Clones notes that clones have the ability to think creatively, which would require the ancillary ability to examine and critically assess the world and their place in it, and subsequently make choices based upon those observations―but let's assume that it is true for a moment. How does the denial of free will by an external force unrelated to that individual make the subsequent enslavement better? It does not. You've only succeeded in creating the ultimate slave, who would not question the injustice being done to them. To put it in a different but no less despicable light, consider the scenario of a woman who is drugged, either into unconsciousness or disassociative awareness, and then raped. The drugs take away her free will on a biological level, much like the clones' genetic modifications, and thus she becomes incapable of objecting. However, despite the absence of a solid "No," consent has not been given, because the ability to think and reason critically in the situation was forcibly denied to this person. A similar case could be made about manipulating an individual with autism, dementia, or any of a number of other disabilities that render a person's ability to critically analyze their world and their actions dampened. The same can even be said of small children who don't fully comprehend the law or the greater ways of the world.

 

But this also makes no sense IU, because at the time Vergere made that statement,

A) She had already encountered Krayt and talked with him about the failure of the Jedi and the need to rebuild the Sith, a conversation which did not include any mention of Mandalorians at all
B) None of those Mandalorian victories had taken place (and as mentioned above, they weren't the only ones to do so)
C) The idea that a few Mandalorian victories makes them the equal of the Jedi and Sith or their respective government allies, especially since for most of the Legacy time the Mandalorians are themselves the latter's proxies, is just too funny.

As if she even knew about that article, or cared to follow what it established.

 

If I quoted Mia's post, my computer would probably crash, but I'll just say this: I agree with her completely. That's the thing: the clones were never given the opportunity to choose. If they could've some would have still chosen to fight, like Sev or Rex or Boss, or the ones who just like fighting above anything else. Others, like Levet or Cut Lawquane, would've chosen farming. But they didn't have that choice.

 

Finished Crucible. Not as -worthy as I thought yesterday but still really -worthy. The amount of injuries, torture and what not was outrageous and not needed. I almost put the book down today after I started the chapter with the Sabacc game. . Good seeing Han, Luke and Leia doing stuff when they weren't injured but the injuries really made this book a chore. The monolith was weird. No way to describe it. The biots were interesting but freaky. There was a quote I did not like. "You too Leia. I love you too." No just no. "I love you" "I know" was needed. Not that. I do not like what they did to Mirta and Vestara. Mirta should know right from wrong and not be duped so easily. I like to think that there is something redeemable about Vestara but I couldn't see it in Crucible. She should have been wandering the galaxy trying to fit in or come in and save the day or something.
The Unifying Force is the definitive end to the Big 3's story. Plain and simple, end of story, no questions asked.

 

Force Smuggler, know what's funny? If they'd ended the Big 3, Jacen, and Jaina's story with TUF, and just combined the Mandalorian parts of LOTF into one book, I'd have been totally happy.

 

What do you mean ended Jacen and Jaina's story in TUF? They were being set up to take the torch in that novel; I think a large reason that Jacen was made evil was to restore Luke as the central protagonist. It was a repudiation of the passing of the torch that the New Jedi Order series was. I liken it to the hypothetical scenario in which Obi-Wan doesn't die in the OT, and after Return of the Jedi, Dark Empire occurs to make Obi-Wan the central character. And Luke dies by Leia's hand. Plus other wacky stuff, like Yoda being a Sith Lord.

The writers and editors were clearly overwhelmed at the conclusion of the New Jedi Order, and in retrospect it seems like it would have been such a brilliant idea to either back off doing another big series for several years and do smaller stories with different characters central to each, like a Big 3 novel, a Jacen novel, a Jaina novel, or even that they could have done a trilogy like Dark Nest but starring Jaina, sort of like Sword of the Jedi, with Jacen off using space peyote with the Theran Listeners or something.

 

Same here now. When DNT came out I was ready for more Star Wars since it had been almost 2 years since TUF. How young and naive I was. If you have the perfect ending, stop there.

 

Well, that's the warning I give to people that are upset that the EU won't receive a proper ending if Episode VII results in a reset. I was looking forward to stories set after The Unifying Force too!

 

I honestly can't see Mirta's characterization being much different in Denning's books to be honest. And at least he didn't kill her.

The way I see it Mandalorians are supposed to be savages, ruthless, even evil at times (generally speaking) and it was Travis who rewrote them to be something a bit ridiculous in my view (noble farmers, can beat jedi one-on-one). So I see Denning's writing of them as "setting things straight" to a certain extent.

Denning's take on the Mandalorians, ie. easily beaten by jedi, lack of morals etc is the way it should be, IMO. It's cool if Boba Fett or some of the greatest Madalorian warriors can hold their own against a junior Jedi, in certain circumstances, but Travis took it way too far.

btw shouldn't most of the characters from Republic Commando be dead anyway? That was like 60 years ago they'd be old and dying soon regardless.

 

Okay, yeah, continue theirs if neither one goes to the dark side. And I agree, they wanted to keep the focus on Luke, so they turned Jacen to the dark side, but it was a bad move. Luke could've been focused on in his own novels, not the main series.

They should've done some different things, but what they did ended up turning out less that spectacularly. Your idea could've been much better. And like I said, Luke in his own novel.

 

I want books post NJO but not DNT/LOTF/FOTJ/Crucible. The potential was limitless! You want to continue past NJO? Read the Legacy comics!

 

See, I don't agree with you on any of your points here...but we need to get back to topic anyways so whatever.

 

Absolutely. Traviss' characterizations in LOTF were terrible. A bit rich complaining about Denning "ruining" a minor Travis character when Travis "pooped all over" Mara Jade Skywalker, having her behave like a moron leading to a pointless death of THE original EU character.

And she basically rewrote Boba Fett completely. Even movie characters weren't safe.

 

Well, I have my ideas of what they could have done with the benefit of hindsight (but I don't really think it takes hindsight to think LOTF was a bad idea, but YMMV). Ben should have had his own young adult series analogous to Jacen and Jaina's Young Jedi Knights series and Anakin's Junior Jedi Knights series. It would have established a peer group of characters for Ben, as he has none (except Vestara but she's pretty firmly been established to be an antagonist now). I really like the idea of Jaina having her own trilogy while Jacen is off experimenting with bota. An interesting idea for a Luke novel would be Luke trying to find Jacen. The novel Millennium Falcon works as a good example of what a Han/Leia novel could be.

I think the idea of there being a Big 3 sendoff novel is sort of a misnomer, as when you really think about it, they're not really together all that often, especially the further the EU gets from the films in the timeline. The increased focus on the Jedi Order really marginalized Han as a character, and if Leia's Jedi-ness wasn't re-emphasized by Denning then she would have been marginalized as well. I'm pretty sure that is precisely what motivated him to have Saba complete Leia's training, in order to bring Han and Leia into the fold of these Jedi-centric stories.

 

Ben does need some friends, huh? Kam/Tionne and Kyle/Jan, need to have some kids! And Kyp needs to find a girl.

 

Depends on the Mouse.