Lit Crucible by Troy Denning

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Manisphere, Sep 4, 2012.

  1. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Having not read LOTF/FOTJ/whatever else... would it have been so bad just to make Lando Chief of State? Sure, it's predictable, but dammit, some things are predictable because they should happen =((
  2. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    C: Nope, why should I have? What made it so special?

    B: Does it follow that you'd be at ease with them terrifying and intimidating but not killing opponents then? Also, resistance movements are, quite often, focused on killing and hurting anything deemed to aid the enemy! I don't think this is quite the virtuous path you've envisaged it to be!

    There's a few new things I'll throw in here:

    1. An appropriate level of threat - if we have utterly unrestrained villains, the heroes have no chance. Therefore the villains cannot be unrestrained or the scale cannot be unbalanced - throwing an army of thousands of Sith at a Jedi order of hundreds and requiring them not to kill any of them while being utterly outnumbered is just dumb. The alternative of allowing the Jedi to kill and then rendering the bulk of said Sith as cannon fodder isn't much better. What is? Getting the balance right at the start.

    2. What blocks the need to kill at all? One solution is to have a villain who operates on a set of rules to a degree, not especially moral ones but they do stick to them. In response to that more disciplined behaviour, the Jedi may well decide to reciprocate restraint so as to manage the conflict better with regard to reducing collateral damage say.

    3. Recognise that just because it's called Star Wars that this does not mean it is a war story! I'd argue SW has never really been this.
  3. Todd the Jedi Mod and Sitcom Dad of SWTV

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Oct 16, 2008
    star 5
    That's be cool, but then they'd need a new source for teh dramas in FOTJ.
  4. AusStig Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2010
    star 3

    I never said it would be easy.

    About the risks; shouldn't the jedi be willing to take them? Luke risked by reaching out to Vader and it paid off, isn't Star Wars at it's core about how people can be redeemed? I like to think that Star Wars, at it's very core, is an optimistic story. People can change for the better if given the chance. I my opinion the best Stars Wars stories have this: KOTOR (comic and game, the second to a degree), Broken (at the end Cade decides to help the jedi, the Empire is now good), even NJO ended with the Vong changing (arguments about them getting off too lightly included, I feel a war crimes trial was needed) and giving up war. What about LoTF? Jacen dead, Daala in charagr of the galaxy. FoTJ? Vestra is evil, all Sith stay evil, Daala's right hand now CoS (although he is show how a good guy despite enabling Daala to do all of her horrible acts?). Yeah I can feel my sprit lifting. :rolleyes: It's a sad inditement on how Star Wars is now that I want to read the Horus Heresy series because I find it LESS depressing.

    C: No not really it's just a good series.

    B: I am also ok with them killing in battle. The jedi could try to keep the revolution civilised. Also I meant a mysterious watchful protector, a silent guardian of the night, the hero they deserve but not the one they need right now.

    Yeah I just The Dark Knight.

    Any way a good example of jedi not acting like heros comes in "Tempest" when Lumiya has a restaurant under mind control. She tells Luke to bow before her or she will have the restaurant people attack and Luke will have to kill them. Luke....

    does not bow and kills the people.

    While that may be 'cool' it is not very heroic. I feel that Luke should have bowed and then asked Lumiya to let the people go. She saws no and Luke can be full of righteous furry or some such.
    Last edited by AusStig, Feb 22, 2013
  5. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    Young Jedi Baron Knight: The Adventures of Chance Calrissian
  6. Reveen Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2012
    star 3
    I actually kind of like Daala having never read her first books, atleast when actually being written as a villain. She's a prominent female villain who isn't incompetent, cowardly, or ultimately pathetic and doesn't have to rely on betrayal and/or seduction. She'd make a better main villain than Abeloth or those sith chuckleheads. But the President? Come on.

    As far as the Sith assassinations issue. I don't have a problem with the act itself but more with the lack of acknowledgment of any other objective that's not killing Sith. Why do they kill the Sith controlling the news station? Because he/she's a Sith, not because the Jedi want to stop the flow of misinformation, who cares what the plebs think right? They can't do kung fu fighting so screw 'em. We could've had a good subplot about the Jedi trying to get the public and military on their side by outing the Sith (come on, how hard could that possibly be?).

    But Denning seemed to prefer that the Jedi act like vampire hunters and use graceless, brute force tactics without acknowledging that the rest of the galaxy could possibly be of help in their little shadow war. Which is kind of crazy considering that there's a whole subplot about political machinations and civilian franchisement in the Empire.

    It doesn't make the Jedi look quite like bloodthirsty thugs. But it seem like they have tunnel vision and skewed priorities to me.
    Last edited by Reveen, Feb 22, 2013
  7. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    Lando would have been SOOOOOOO much better than Daala! He would have made so much more sense!
    Force Smuggler likes this.
  8. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Lando as Chief of State? That would have been great. Different but great
  9. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    I would love Lando as chief of state. I would buy that book lol
  10. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    I feel like in the post-ROTJ timeline, everyone has undergone some kind of character arc, except for Lando. Sure, he went from shady conman and gambler to New Republic general, but so did Han, and they both quit that. After that, he just fizzled out of the stories completely. Considering how often Lando is ribbed for "going respectable", it would make sense for his arc to culminate in going about as respectable as you can possibly go (though I guess it's not particularly respectable anymore, considering Daala has held the position... though I'm sure Jello would argue that Mon Mothma sullied the position long before Daala ever hit the scene :p) .

    From businessman, to general, to Hologram Fun World owner ([:D] ), to Chief of State. Should have happened. Undoubtedly his experience running an amusement park would have helped in running the post-NJO Republic.
    Chewbacca89 likes this.
  11. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    1. Illegal by using government funds to purchase Mandalorians, which was your point. I assume it was illegal to do that via a company. Actually, Luke had put out a call via Ben in Vortex; they knew he was in immediate danger. The Fallanassi were vulnerable to Abeloth via the Force... they had let her in already.

    2. Justifiable as so far argued.

    3. I'm saying that the mess is understandable. Without the heroes we would have a galaxy of souls being absorbed by Palpatine, or being tortured to death by the Yuuzhan Vong. Sure, what we have in the NR/GA situation isn't ideal, but its parsecs better than what we have.

    4. Crimininally wasted. But, it made Abeloth look even more dangerous which always works. The subtle build-up of Vol as a Palpatine-esque villain and to see him dead, face torn with horror, worked so well for me. The shock factor was great, and reminded us just what Abeloth could do if not confronted with someone like Luke. Bumps her up notches in my mind.
  12. Plebeian Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 1
    The stress might cause him to age, we can't have that.
  13. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    No, it would cause him to sweat. He cannot have that. Sweating means hard work. He does not do hard work.
  14. Plebeian Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 1
    Plus sweating might stain his clothes, which are probably worth more than a Chief of State could ever hope to make.
    Force Smuggler likes this.
  15. Reveen Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2012
    star 3
    I'd only want Lando karking Calrissian as chief of state if they started treating the office more realistically. A book about Lando trying to get something done by maneuvering and manipulating the wasps nest of factions, systems, and agenda's a la Lincoln would be awesome. But if chief-of-state is portrayed as "guy who tells get's to make all the decisions without questioning" I wouldn't want him associated with it.
    Dr. Steve Brule and Chewbacca89 like this.
  16. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    I agree. If they play it right, he could make a great leader. Working everyone to help the galaxy....*sigh* =P~
  17. Danz Borin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 16, 2012
    star 1
    Have you read any of the EU? You rail against the TCW; and say how you loved the previous CW multimedia project yet admit you've only read like two CW novels.

    And your in the Crucible thread talking about how disgusted you are with the post-NJO but its posts like this that make it seem like you haven't read anything post-NJO.
  18. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    I have actually read all of the Bantam novels and short story anthologies, the NJO, and several other Del Rey novels.

    I technically don't hate TCW, I hate what it represents (film and television are the only thing that matters) and I don't like what it did to the Clone Wars. I have read the Republic Commando series and the Dark Lord Trilogy, and they make everything I here about TCW seem like a terrible, terrible nightmare. I also can't stand the initial premise of TCW, Anakin being knighted so early and having a Padawan.

    That's because I actually haven't read anything post-NJO, because I don't like the direction they took things. I hate all of the major plot points, Jacen's fall, death, and lack of redemption, the deaths of many characters I like, Daala as Chief of State, and Abeloth/Mortis.
  19. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    That's definitely the worst part of TCW, well, besides killing characters twice. Luckily, it's very easy to ignore, since the time of Anakin's knighting is never actually stated in the show.
  20. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    Anakin having a Padawan is "ehhh", sure, but Anakin being Knighted earlier makes a great deal more sense than the original set up. It seems pretty clear that the only reason he stayed a Padawan as long as he did originally is because no-one knew whether he was going to be a Knight in Episode III or not. And it became even sillier in retrospect when it turned out that part of Anakin's RotS arc was about him making a play for Jedi Masterdom (Pterodactyl! Triceratops! Sabre-Tooth Tiger! Tyrannosaurus!).

    So, yeah, while crunching most of the original CW run into the first six months of the war (or whatever) isn't ideal by any stretch of the imagination, I'm willing to swallow it.

    Hell, as much as I don't like to admit it, even Ahsoka's addition actually helps make better sense of that whole "Waa, waa, I shud be a Jedi Master, waa" arc, too. Especially if she ends up Knighted by the show's end, and Anakin is denied a Masterhood he felt was "rightfully" his.
    Summer Dreamer and instantdeath like this.
  21. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Oh, I agree that Anakin shouldn't be Knighted near the very end of the war, like it was originally set up. I just feel the first six months is too early. The simplest solution, in my mind, is just to have most of the CW material take place in the first year and a half of the war. Anakin is then Knighted, and the TCW stuff happens. This issue can be a lot simpler and neater than some want to make it.

    I honestly don't despise the existence of Ahsoka, the way some others do. In fact, if Ahsoka ends up dying, I think that serves very nicely as a transition of the darker, moodier Anakin we see in the flashbacks of Ghost Prison, as well as the much more reserved Anakin we see in Labyrinth of Evil and ROTS.

    It's possible everything only fits because you squint, but if you ask me, part of the fun of a shared universe is connecting the puzzle pieces, even if they don't want to fit easily.
    Last edited by instantdeath, Feb 22, 2013
  22. AusStig Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2010
    star 3


    1. Ok She was a criminal but how was Kenith defending her? He did want to start a war with the jedi at a massive disadvantage.

    2. So because e disagreed with their self entitled views they can kill him? isn't that more of a Sith thing?

    3. Still doesn't have to be this bad. TOR (the government not the game) had some rough patches and 'fell' a couple of times but was never this pathetic.

    4. Having him die offpage felt lazy. It had no impact on me other then an eye-roll. All I saw was another named Sith with build up and character being killed off with no fanfare and little effort on the part of the authors. So no it did sell Abeloth to me or shock me, only bore me.

    Edit:

    To get back on 'topic' I would love for the Crucible to involve THE Crucible from KOTOR. Maybe opposed by a group calling it self the Rouge Moon?
    Last edited by AusStig, Feb 23, 2013
  23. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    @instantdeath

    I don't dislike Ahsoka in principle, really. The "Anakin has a wartime Padawan" thing isn't a terrible idea in itself... my issue's more that she's so extremely gifted she makes Anakin and Obi-Wan -- who are meant to be THE ultimate Jedi in the war period, save perhaps Mace and Yoda -- look kind of average.

    Though, if I'm honest, I'd have rather they had the show focus more on Plo Koon, with Ahsoka as his padawan, and Anakin and Obi-Wan being the Big Damn Heroes who only appear every so often to demonstrate why they're the Greatest Heroes Of The Age Of Heroes. (And if I'm TOTALLY honest, I'd rather have not had a TCW show at all, and been given a "Young Skywalker Adventures" series focusing on 14 Y/O Ani and Master Obi between TPM-AotC :p)

    That could be cool.
    Last edited by Ulicus, Feb 23, 2013
  24. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    This! Totally this! The part about the Clone Wars.
  25. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Hmm, if that cartoon is out on Region 2 DVD might give it a try. Still don't really see the Jedi fitting into the Dark Knight mold due to their vulnerability to the dark side though.

    The example you give sounds a perfect case of an unbalanced plot - why have Luke's options so constrained, can he not send out a whirlwind of Force energy say that stuns the bystanders thereby removing Lumiya's ace card without harming them too much? At the same time, given the nature of LOTF, say Luke bows in order to save the people and she kills them anyway? Just comes across to me as all-round bad construction!