Lit Books Cynically Reliving the X-Wing Series

I went and pulled my copy of X-Wing Rogue Squadron out of a box. The first paragraph begins Corran's victim complex.

 

Wait...why would we want to talk about X-Wings in this thread?

 

While stating I prefer climaxes possessing more energy then "The Lusankya rammed into the worldship, the bombs detonated, and the Vong died" could be enough I'll distill most of my main contentions before the discussion reaches Wraith Squadron. In brief, the blocking in his scenes are badly done, Allston is too conservative in approach to Wraith's central thesis, Wedge is still dull, Allston brings almost nothing new to the EU, and the emotion payoffs are fake. Stackpole is able to bring interesting concepts to overcompensate his writer weaknesses, which Allston cannot.

 

Sorry, Sniper_Wolf, I disagree with just about everything you said...how is Allston too conservative, how is Wedge dull...basically, can you give any specific examples for any of these statements? Because offhand I can't think of any emotional payoffs that are fake. Then again, I just enjoy Allston's writing style, and the X-Wing books just happen to be his best.

 

So I've been reading Rogue Squadron again, and I have to admit I'm pretty cynical about this plotline that Rogue Squadron is being politicized.

 

Agreed. I sometimes had trouble following exactly what was going on during the space battles, but I think this was partly my fault, as I read the series at approximately light speed, as I wanted to get to the NJO (which I still haven't done). The series will definitely be worth a reread at some point.

I do prefer Allston exponentially, as I find he excels at Stackpole's greatest weakness: dialogue. Stackpole is, generally, great at plotting at characterization, but sheesh, some of the things that come out of Mirax's mouth. Even so, all of Stackpole's books are so fun that it's surprisingly easy to ignore. This is particularly the case, at least for me, with I, Jedi.

 

I agree, it was a blatant strawman on Stackpoles part, same way Felya is as a character, for the Hero's to rally against.

instantdeath I am curious what characterisation that Stackpole did, that you think is so great ?
For the Rogues it's basically that like that Redletter Media test he did with the TPM characters.

 

son I am disappoint

 

If it makes you feel any better, I'm currently on track. I just slogged through Children of the Jedi, and I'm currently on Darksaber.

It better be worth it, 'sall I'm saying.

fett 4 While Stackpole was very bad about having redshirt characters- I mean, did anyone really give the slightest crap that Riv Shiel died?- I think the characters he actually chose to focus on were very well rounded. Nawara Ven is a good example of a character who is presented as having views, beliefs and a life outside of what he does on the page. And of course, say what you want about Corran- he certainly gets on my nerves occasionally- but aside from him being right more times than he's wrong, I'd argue he's one of the most "real" characters in the EU, particularly in how he's painted as being aware of his flaws, but utterly unable to fix them.

 

I actually read the first chapter of Rogue Squadron and I found Corran Horn more than a little annoying and pretentious....which is odd because now that I think about it I could barely stand him in I, Jedi even though that counts as one of my favorite EU books.

 

People still think they are meant to like Corran? He is one of the biggest jerks we have ever met in the SW galaxy and that is the point.

 

instantdeath I cannot remember anything about Narawa Ven to be honest,which of the books was she in again ?
As for Corran, common the ex-cop/ace fighter pilot with a hidden Jedi past complete with his own R2- D2
A guy that's never wrong (about the important stuff anyway) and who never loses, hell he even defeats Luke Skywalker! and of course lets not forget the phalic reference of Corran's Lightsaber being longer than everyone elses
That's not a character, that's fan fiction with Stackpole writing himself into the Starwars universe in the most fanboyish way possible. He even posed as Corran in those Starwars card photo's.

Gorefiend see the above. Corran is nearly always right and always saves the day and he is Stackpole's alterego which is probably why

 

He is the Twilek pilot with the background in law.

He is so wrong about so many things it is essentially hilarious, especially how often other people have to point it out to him.

His many stints in bacta tanks would say something different.

Oh not that again, no he does not, he throws Luke to the ground, Luke force smacks him for it and they stop the contest.

As mentioned he is a giant jerk and everyone is aware of it.

Because he was asked to, even he admitted he looks nothing like Corran should.

 

Nawara Ven is a guy, and he's in the series from book one, chapter one.

 

Gorefiend Luke doesn't smack him around. Corran has the upperhand and is winning, then choses too end the fight.

Those stint's in Bacta tanks are not from stand up fights where just loses, they are from events from beyond his control or that couldn't be helped. Put simply there will never be an Empire Strikes (ala Luke/Vader) back of Corran going 1 on 1 and getting his arse handed to him. The closest is in the 1st Rogue book against Tycho in the flight simulator but that's a draw.

Corran is only wrong about the small stuff, that is inconsquential, everything else he is 100% dead on

Nawara Ven is so forgettable which was my point

 

I'm not sure I'd entirely agree with that. While I might just be saying this because I'm watching Mad Men and have it very much on my mind, Corran does remind me of, well, pretty much everyone on that show. He's a mostly good person, with mostly good intentions and is capable of being pleasant to other people, but he has a host of fatal flaws that seem to overwhelm his very big personality, to the point where, at times, it's all the viewer can focus on. In Corran's case, it would have to be his arrogance, but even with his whaladon sized ego, I don't think that's enough to qualify him as "one of the biggest jerks we have ever met in the SW galaxy". I mean, the guy tends to do very good things, he's just not so saintly on the inside.

I think one thing many forget about Corran is that, despite his arrogance, he is capable of being humbled. He's pretty miserable about admitting when he's wrong (which again, in my experience, is a very common, very real trait), but it's not like the guy does Eric Cartman level mental gymnastics to paint himself as the God King of the Universe. He's not at all shy in admitting that both Wedge and Tycho are better pilots than he is, for instance, and near the end of I, Jedi, acknowledges that Luke doesn't need him to do much more than "hold his coat". Also, if I recall correctly, on meeting Han Solo he's fairly quick to point out that he was very, very wrong on what kind of man he would be.

fett 4, those things you listed have nothing to do with characterization. I'm not talking about Corran's sometimes "sueish" feats. Frankly, Corran could juggle three Death Stars and that would have little bearing on his characterization. I'm strictly speaking in terms of how effectively Stackpole illustrates him as a character. I won't claim Corran is a particularly "deep" character, but I also don't think he's anything close to one-note.

 

Corran was still very quick to judge Han Solo for his past despite the fact that Han Solo had done more for the Rebelion and New Republic than Corran Horn could ever accomplish during his career as a pilot. He's just so full of himself for no reason at all.

I mean, when he first reaches the Praxeum he's always second-guessing Luke and calling Luke's decisions into question...for what purpose exactly? Did he forget that Luke is the founder of Rogue Squadron and had just as much experience in the military as Corran did?

 

To be honest I forgot most of this series. I remember who the traitor is and Corran DRAMATICALLY interrupted the trial for his MURDER (I think?).

But re-reading the first few chapters, I have to be honest I'm just not buying the premise of the makeup of Rogue Squadron in its politicization. I mean, has this happened in real life? Do the Navy SEALS have to include people with certain backgrounds to score political points? Or is Rogue Squadron not that elite? I mean, I don't even know.


And I'm not complaining that OMG ALIENS IN A STARFIGHTER so much as the fact that Stackpole is hanging a lampshade on it and making it a focus because it strikes me as hamfisted.

 

I read these all in sequence last year (properly spaced, with TTT after the Wraith arc and before Isard's Revenge etc), and have also re read them recently (I read on the exercise bike so was looking for something jaunty and familiar).

I don't think Stackpole is a particularly good character author. He missed a trick by not making it an ensemble cast - there are a litany of characters who get zero development and negligible characterisation (and usually die) - Pesshk, Andoorni, Riv, Rhysati, and the two most pointless characters to appear in any novel ever Lyyr Zatoq and Khe-Jeen Slee. The only protagonist that gets actual development and then dies is Lujayne, everyone else is protected by an overabundance of character shields.

It's a shame because while being less focused on characters the Stackpole books do touch on some of the more interesting issues in GFFA - it looks a lot at the politics between humans and non-humans, which I quite liked.

However, the whole 'squadron is full of political appointments' thing doesn't go anywhere - it's never mentioned again. Even in Iron Fist, Alston has Wedge mention that he always makes the weakest pilot [Callsign] Two to keep an eye on them, but there's no suggestion after establishing that the squad list has been politically stacked that any of them aren't up to muster and are only there because of who they represent. Also I feel like the Erisi plotline is wasted - all she really did was rig Corran's controls, be entirely ineffective as a double agent, defect to follow an insane Isard, and then die.


The Wraith arc does the ensemble cast a lot better. Alston's method is a simple one - each character in Wraith Squadron had a skill, and each of them had a flaw. Each of them either resolved their flaws or succumbed to them (died) and then became a more peripheral character. Kel was a coward, he got over it at the end of Wraith Squadron and he became a peripheral character, Falynn was always trying to prove herself, she bit off more than she could handle and died, and so on.

There's a lot less of a macro focus than Stackpole's books but I feel it works - not every story has to be about retaking the galactic capital or toppling the remnant of the Empire to be interesting.

 

Those Stormtrooper on Thyferra would have something different to say there

 

Someone should tell Del Rey that amirite?

 

Having read I, Jedi recently, I personally felt that people really overstated Corran's backseat teaching. Going in, I was expecting Corran to be second guessing Luke at every turn, but he really doesn't. I was shocked at how often he calls Luke "master" and means it completely, and how often he mentally admires and respects Luke, and even a few instances of Corran changing his opinion. There's one particular segment I like a lot, where Corran thinks to himself that he's more familiar with "monsters" than Luke, having dealt with various serial killers and freaks who enjoy the pain of others, but then chastises himself, acknowledging that no matter what he's seen, it doesn't compare to what Luke had faced. It's those rare instances of humility that don't seem to ever come up in Corran conversations.

That said, there is one particular chapter where Corran just lays into Luke for all the things he thinks he's doing wrong. It just comes off like a lecture, and would have been perfectly acceptable if Stackpole had simply had Luke articulate his point of view. But he doesn't. He just has Luke nod and essentially say, "gosh Corran, you may be right about all the ways I suck. I'm not going to bother standing up for my firmly held beliefs." That chapter annoyed me endlessly. It's that kind of thing that makes Corran feel like a mouthpiece for the author, when otherwise he feels very distinct. Fortunately, I like to believe much of it is negated by the end of the novel, as Luke, in many ways, gets his groove back.

The worst part about the lecture is that, when it comes down to it, I agree with Corran, for the most part. The argument was about morality, and like Corran, I don't think morality can be wholly defined by good and evil. But I believe Luke believes it, and I believe he has a good reason for believing it. It's frustrating that, for that one chapter, he was so criminally short changed.

sharkymcshark I do agree completely that Stackpole sacrifices a lot by focusing his X-Wing books so much on just Corran. While we get a deeper level of characterization on him, most of the others feel less developed because of it. With the Wraith books, on the other hand, you get time to come to know each member of the ensemble. Firely would have been a much less effective show if it had been Malcolm Reynolds and a bunch of redshirts.

 

Yeah, more on that in the social thread, please.

 

Given I, Jedi's first person narrative, I'm inclined to believe that this does in fact happen.