RPG D&D 5E...

Discussion in 'Games' started by VadersLaMent, Jan 10, 2012.

  1. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
  2. FlareStorm Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2000
    star 6
    I remember when 4e came out they said they would do a new version every few years.

    They are running it like a movie franchise. Make a trilogy, wait, remake it. Can't fault them because people will buy the next new thing just to check it out. Great strategy
  3. JoinTheSchwarz Comms Admin & Community Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2002
    star 8
    The 4e designers had some good ideas but, having directed a campaign for several years, I don't think the "streamlining" they did was the way to go. They wanted to create the Wii of RPGs and yes, they gave us a balanced game, but at the expense of the ability to create the mechanically complex characters we were used to.

    And Pathfinder has become as bloated as 3.0/3.5 was. Not that I expected any less.


    I'll be waiting for 5E. It can't be any worse... right?
  4. FlareStorm Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2000
    star 6
    I only read a few of the official announcements, but something along the lines of: "if you liked 1e, 2e, 3e, or 4e...it'll be there"

    I don't get how that is possible
  5. Jedi_Matt Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2002
    star 4
    Duh! [face_clown]

    It's called Dungeons and Dragons, there will be both dungeons AND dragons. What more do you need? :p
  6. FlareStorm Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2000
    star 6
    Big thing about 4e that was promised was a virtual gaming table, and a virtual character (appearance) thing. Then they tried to facebook the WoTC community. It sounded like they really wanted to spearhead online play. I would have liked to try that

    None of those even got into beta. Instead we got rehashed books with stats for the new edition. And an online database for books you already owned (?)

    That was really a fail for WoTC. If they actually put some bucks into software development, we could be on the cusp of a new RP era

    Imagine us, we are all willing and able to play some online stuff. There's just no easy way to do it. Its a void in the software and RP market
  7. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    I heard the original idea when WotC got hold of D&D was a new edition every 10 years.

    How, I guess Hasbro sent down the order for every 5 years.

    My only complaint with 4th was that the characters in each successive book were more powerful than the previous. Sure, all the classes in PH3 were balanced with each other, but beat the snot out of anything from PH1. It would have been better to have the balance maintained.
    "Can't create mechanically complex characters"? Sure you can. That's like saying the PH1 didn't have enough character class options, when there were some 90 possibilities (some were more optimized than others, but just different combinations of race and class produced so many combinations...
    And then they started the whole essentials thing, with backwards-engineering from E-classes to O-classes, and the half-a$$ed Heroes of Shadow book...
    And the online rules changes and corrections put out online... I really hated that.

    I don't think we need a new edition.
    But they've already put out almost every book they can think of. And we don't need actual adventure modules (no money in that, but they put out a couple dozen to keep us happy)...
    As our gaming host says, "Once they start 5th edition, I'll say great, I have all the 4th edition books ever put out. Let's play 4th edition."
  8. JoinTheSchwarz Comms Admin & Community Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2002
    star 8
    Nothing compared to the infinite variety of 3.0/3.5/PF. I can build you any character in that system. Skull the Slayer? Van Helsing? The Bride? Elric? Gollum? That elf guy from Hellboy II? I can find you the right combination of classes, prestige classes, feats and objects. 4E's multiclass system is, simply put, mediocre. Sure you can choose from a large array of characters, but I don't care about that: I don't want a large box with ninety toys, I want the tools to build my own. I understand they wanted to make the game easier for beginners and casual players, but they totally dropped the ball in that sense. I like many things from 4E, but character building is not one of them. You can rationalize it any way you want to, but it still pales before 3E.

    And don't get me started on the very bland power system that became the basis of the combat, because I could rant for hours.
  9. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    And I could counter-rant both of those arguments, but that would take us off topic. Even more than I already did.


    The thing I don't understand is the people who just build characters, but never play them. They don't even seem to want to play them, just build the most synergistic combat beast with ungodly (well actually, nearly godly) modifiers and benefits.
  10. JoinTheSchwarz Comms Admin & Community Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2002
    star 8
    No one talked about min-maxing. I'll give you that it's one of the best aspects of 4E: it limits the optimization of stats.
  11. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    Oh, there's plenty of possibilities. The Avenger player has worked out a combination of race, class, feats, and magic items that give him disgusting (lvl 11, static damage can be as high as +32 under the right circumstances, minimum static of +14) static damage and defenses.

    No, what strikes me as odd is the people who just build characters that they will never play. I don't get it. What's the point? Sure, I guess it's an intellectual puzzle, but to me, most of the fun is actually playing the game.

    I guess one other thing I'd like to see in 5th edition is that all classes be supported equally from the VERY BEGINNING. None of this "Warlock = red-headed step-child" garbage that plagued 4th
  12. Jedi_Matt Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2002
    star 4
    Virtual gaming table would be full of win. I used to use some old program that was basically an IRC client, but you could input character sheets, it had a built in die-roller and you could have maps and stuff. It was wicked, but with the tech around today it could be re-designed, and I could see it working super smooth on a tablet.
  13. Jedi_Matt Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2002
    star 4
    OpenRPG was the name of that app, I'm sure I've mentioned it before as well.

    Someone else has been developing something called Traipse which utilises OpenRPG > http://www.knowledgearcana.com/traipse-openrpg
  14. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    They can drop the Epic Level crap. In fact they can drop the 4E 3 teirs crap. I would prefer straight levels. When Elminster's stats were first published in Dragon all I needed to see was "Wizard 26" and I got it.

    I would be willing to bet a point system could finally be officially implemented rather than just mentioned as an option.

    FEATS. So many feats are just skills. Blend them, one system.

  15. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    And stop generating all the useless feats just for the sake of having something to publish.
    There are a bunch of "tactics" feats that only apply to Martial characters, and only come into play during Surprise rounds. Do you know how many surprise rounds we have? 3. Since 4th edition first came out, our group has had a total of 3 surprise rounds.

    We don't need the smeg-loads of feats that just seem to keep coming.
    "OOOhhh, you are so blessed with scare arcane stuff that you can use Arcana instead of Bluff or Intimidate. Whoooo. Big woopety-skip".

    Today's session was also the first skill challenge that the party failed since... ever. My fault--I rolled a 2 and a 4 when I needed 6s or better. The consequence, we had to wait 12 hours, have an extended rest, recover all our dailies and surges... Darn, what a horrible penalty.
    The skill challenge rules need to be spelled out more clearly. Scales of war has tons of skill challenges where the difficulty is pathetic. LVL10 party, skill difficulties: 10-12. Pfffft. seriously? It was impossible for us to fail. To even call it a challenge was insulting.

    Don't have one character generator tool available as a download, then discontinue it after a year, while it is still full of bugs, in favor of a membership-access only web-based application.

    Don't release a pathetic 'simplified' version of the game, then have aspects of the sub-game retroactively essentially screw the original.

    If you release one version of a class in Dragon, don't completely change it when you publish the book version.

    Provide the same support with magic items and feats for all the classes--don't just invent something and then leave it hanging.

    Hire frickin' PLAY TESTERS to make sure what you create is BALANCED.

    Ditch the expertise feats. All of them. If your players have to spend a feat because they need the scaling bonus just to hit the monsters, then the whole mechanic is broken. Either fix the monsters' defenses, or put in a basic bonus that all characters get +1/+2/+3 just for being PCs instead of NPCs. Otherwise it is a pointless feat-tax
  16. JoinTheSchwarz Comms Admin & Community Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2002
    star 8
    The feat/skill differentiation makes sense. Removing it would be stupid.
    Yes, yes and yes. The skill challenge is a brilliant concept, but its application is mediocre.
  17. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    And hire editors. There was a post in one of the WotC boards from someone else in publishing that boiled down to "I'm a professional editor. If I turned in something like this, I would be fired."

    Don't change the powers after they've been published in hard copy. That's it. Unless there's some screw up (like on mod gave a monster a close blurst 5. Yes, Blurst). Once it hits the dead trees, you're done. That's what copy-editing is for--to clear up screw ups before they happen. And if somehow a typo makes it through, fix it in reprints, without declaring "An all new edition."
    Someone used Infernal Wrath last week against a swarm.
    "I don't know if that's an area attack or not."
    "What does the power say?"
    "An enemy within 10 attacks you, you get to attack back."
    So I looked it up. In the PH, it was that Tieflings get and encounter power, +1 to hit, and +cha mod damage.
    At some point, it was converted to a CHA attack power that gave them d6+mod damage.
    To one creature within 10.
    Well, that sounded like close burst 10, one creature, so on the fly it was an area attack.
    Right? Wrong? It kept the game moving.
    But it was totally different from the printed/published text. Some online errata changed it.
    No more of that.

    Make sure people actually READ THE FRICKIN' RULES. Most modules (OK, most of the ones I've played it) use portals to cross dimensions all the time. But if you read the actual text of the Linked Portal ritual, it specifically says that the Portals DO NOT CROSS PLANES. So were are all these cross-planar portals coming from? Um..... No clue.

    Scales of War--there are just tons of problems with this series. We are currently dealing with the LVL 12/13 mod about a conference of representatives meeting to discuss the Githyanki invasion. And supposedly everyone is concerned about it. Except, only one representative is from a city that has been attacked. And the Githzerai, the one who hates the Githyanki the most, is fixated on not cooperating. He didn't want to go to the meeting. He doesn't respond to logic (because the mod text states what his actions are) or changing events. At one point, he orders the unlawful murder of a popular town citizen, even though he knows it will cause problems for his own people. A heroic, lawful Githzerai orders the unlawful murder of a popular town citizen (sure, he's a Githyanki in league with the invasion, but there is no proof available to the Githzerai hero or the party at this point). An outright evil act.
    I was convinced that he must be a meat-puppet dominated by the Githyanki to disrupt the conference--it was the only explanation that made sense. Turns out that's not what the mod wrote.
    But this is only one example.
    Last mod, we went to rescue an old ally. She was mistrustful of us, because the mod wrote it that way. No "Gee, thanks for coming to my rescue." No, we had to have a skill challenge, because she is mistrustful of everyone. Even people she knows. Even people who rescue her. And so is the person who has been hiding her. The one we saved. When his home was being destroyed. And invaded by monsters. Yeah, we rescued you and saved your home. Don't thank people, be mistrustful, because obviously they are out to get you. Even though there is no evidence to support that, and plenty of evidence to the contrary. But the Module insists it is so. No leeway. Just another pointless skill challenge.
    Now, our DM for this campaign is trying. He throws stuff out when necessary. But there is a ton of stuff in Scales of War that is just poorly written. I guess it is designed with a non-good/non-lawful party of antisocial psychopaths in mind instead of a band of heroes.
  18. JoinTheSchwarz Comms Admin & Community Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2002
    star 8
    Ah, I feel your pain. I adapted a couple of the Scales of War adventures for use on my own module. They weren't bad, the encounters were all fairly entertaining. but they all needed some heavy retooling.
  19. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    Yeah.

    So, recommendations for 5th Ed:

    fewer interrupt powers ("Interrupt"... Hmmm... Might they Interrupt the flow of game play?)
    no power creep of classes as more classes come out--PH3 characters should be balanced with PH1 classes
    Playtest before publishing
    Once it is a dead-tree publication, no altering anything unless there is a typo or other mis-communication
    Proper (Heavy) editing process for published works
    Skill challenges are fine as a concept, but need better guidelines to define them (you know, actually make them challenging, but not impossible)
    No mid-edition "simplification" of the rules to play-test 6th edition.

    In short, get it right the first time and don't $^*@ with it.

    Our gaming group has pretty much said that when 5th edition comes out, great: we won't have to worry about more sourcebooks making a mess, and we can just play 4th edition from then on.
  20. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    They should officially adopt a mana point system; finally.

    No more Wayne Reynolds art; ugh.

    I would like to see a Greyhawk supplement given the same treatment as FR 3.0. It may be the default setting but it has nothing quite like the tlc given that FR 3.0 book.

  21. LightWarden Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2001
    star 4
    Can't believe I missed this thread for so long.

    There's a reason that the virtual table completely failed. It's by no means an amusing one. The lead developer was murdered by her ex-husband and the project didn't really recover afterwards when it kept changing hands.


    As of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide in 3e, he was a Fighter 1/Rogue 2/Cleric of Mystra 3/Wizard 24/Archmage 5. Which just goes to show how relentlessly horrible the 3e multiclass system was (and the epic level rules, while we're at it). Six utterly wasted levels- there are 15th level spell slots he can't use, so lots of metamagic shenanigans go untouched in exchange for a bonus feat (which can be duplicated with spells), trapfinding/evasion (which can be duplicated by spells/casting PrCs) and terrible spells (which can be duplicated by spells. Classes (and prestige classes to an extent) in 3e were delicate beasts and being the kind of player who thinks "oh boy, I'm going to make a character who learns to respect both combat skills and magical ability and devotes efforts to improving them, now that's interesting character!" is going to run head-first into a wall when the player finds out that a fighter 5/wizard 5 in a 10th level game is actually just a terrible fighter stapled to a terrible wizard, and this problem only escalates as you grow in level (similarly, dabbling in many skills instead of maximizing your ranks in as many skills as you can afford is a great way to partion yourself into uselessness when you can't handle any of the DCs at higher levels after the gap has eclipsed any possible die roll). There are ways to be a caster who is also great in melee, but it requires a decent amount of system mastery in ways
  22. LightWarden Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2001
    star 4
    Koohii, I'm not sure that I agree with some of your assessments here.

    I'm really not seeing this one at all. Even if you disregard the leagues of difference in Dragon Magazine support that the PHB1 classes have gotten compared to later classes, when you compare book to book the wizard, ranger, cleric, fighter, paladin, warlord, and rogue are all great classes with some of their best powers and Paragon Paths in the PHB1. The PHB3 psionic classes are decent but need some of the stuff in Psionic Power, while the Runepriest is decent but doesn't have any standout class-defining powers, and the Seeker is just plain not good at being a controller (and both the Runepriest and Seeker have had next-to-no support in Dragon Magazine).

    One of the big things to understand about much of the designers and player base of D&D and its clones, is that they're not very good at game design. At all. They don't understand just how mechanics work together, and don't really have a very clear idea of how things should progress, which leads to things where they'll design around a specific idea, yet fail to think things through. It creates lots of problems later on.

    I guess one other thing I'd like to see in 5th edition is that all classes be supported equally from the VERY BEGINNING. None of this "Warlock = red-headed step-child" garbage that plagued 4th
    Provide the same support with magic items and feats for all the classes--don't just invent something and then leave it hanging.

    While I agree with the idea, part of it comes from some of the classes having much bigger "tents" when it comes to design space. There are lots of interesting things you can do with a fighter or wizard or rogue, but how many different concepts can you come up with for a runepriest (which in itself might have been better off as a subclass of the cleric instead of a full class of its own, same with the seeker working better as a subclass of the ranger or druid). And actually, Warlock is one of the most-supported of the 4e classes outside of the core four of cleric, fighter, rogue, and wizard. Least supported classes are the seeker and runepriest, and they're probably part of the reason why later books switched over to things like subclasses (knight, slayer, thief, mage, warpriest, etc) that fall under the umbrella of an existing class rather than being classes in their own right, and why you aren't likely to see things like some of the core classes that cropped up in the tail end of 3e's development in favor of subclasses, alternate features, powers and especially themes.

    And stop generating all the useless feats just for the sake of having something to publish.
    There are a bunch of "tactics" feats that only apply to Martial characters, and only come into play during Surprise rounds. Do you know how many surprise rounds we have? 3. Since 4th edition first came out, our group has had a total of 3 surprise rounds.


    While I agree that the feats aren't quite as useful, the idea behind surprise rounds is that certain parties should have a combination of stealth/bluff/perception that they could more reliably achieve surprise rounds against the enemies. For feats like Unerring Ambush which work in surprise rounds and the first round of combat, it's a bit more useful, since that time period is the best chance to take an enemy down before it can start carving into you. If you focus on iaijutsu/alpha-striking to take people down quickly, some of those feats can be useful. Feats that rely on you being surprised are just silly though.

    We don't need the smeg-loads of feats that just seem to keep coming.
    "OOOhhh, you are so blessed with scare arcane stuff that you can use Arcana instead of Bluff or Intimidate. Whoooo. Big woopety-skip".


    As far as I c
  23. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    As of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide in 3e, he was a Fighter 1/Rogue 2/Cleric of Mystra 3/Wizard 24/Archmage 5. Which just goes to show how relentlessly horrible the 3e multiclass system was (and the epic level rules, while we're at it). Six utterly wasted levels- there are 15th level spell slots he can't use, so lots of metamagic shenanigans go untouched in exchange for a bonus feat (which can be duplicated with spells), trapfinding/evasion (which can be duplicated by spells/casting PrCs) and terrible spells (which can be duplicated by spells. Classes (and prestige classes to an extent) in 3e were delicate beasts and being the kind of player who thinks "oh boy, I'm going to make a character who learns to respect both combat skills and magical ability and devotes efforts to improving them, now..etc

    My point wasn't about multi classing it was that there does not need to be a separation between 20th level and 21st. Gigantic EX needs separate them just fine.

    As for Elminsters 3e stats it is a character and not a min/max matter(though yes, Elminster is mega-uber anyhow).
  24. Katana_Geldar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2003
    star 8
    Well, I've played a few playtest sessions of this, anyone else? I find combat is streamlined much more than 4E, but I did like the power cat in the first incarnation being able to cast touch spells through the wizard.
  25. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    Well, it's been a while.
    And consensus in our group is *^#& 5th edition. Not interested. Not even remotely. Not because we tried it and didn't like it, but simply because we don't want to buy yet another set of books. We've been playing 4th since just after it came out. In that time, we got one party to 14th lvl (the GM moved away), one to 24th (last week), one to 16th, and one to 12th. (Yeah, we take turns GMing to avoid burn-out). Oh, and one to 4th. Now, IF we had consolidated, we'd have had 2 parties from 1-30, and one at about 10th-15th. That's 3 parties. 15 characters. From the PH1, there are over 90 basic character combinations, plus more if you look into builds from Martial Power, Arcane Power, and Divine Power. Quite frankly, there are way too many options still for us to explore.