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Discussion Daisy Ridley (Rey) in Episode IX

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode IX - Spoilers Allowed' started by sheri1967, Dec 12, 2017.

  1. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    If it was “highly collaborative,” then RJ got guidance and input. He made no major decisions himself. Not sure how that could be characterized as “from scratch.”

    If one wishes to interpret RJ’s quotes so loosely that they don’t actually contradict each other, you’re left with fairly useless vagaries which say nearly nothing.

    ETA: @oncafar

    “Baton pass,” from my understanding of the phrase, would be JJ handing over the responsibility of determining what happens next to RJ and wiping his hands of it. Sounds like *a number* of people were jointly responsible for determining what happened next (the big stuff, at least), including those who had already lain out the backstory. I’m one who believes that the ST relies heavily on “presets” - the established backstory (though not in minute detail, I’m sure). Hence the apparent lack of concern with the fine details of the developing plot.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
  2. KembaSkywalker

    KembaSkywalker Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2016
    Of course he got guidance and input. This is a Star Wars film, you can't expect to do everything on your own. He definitely made some major decisions on his own. He, also, definitely needed a lot of collaboration on some major decisions - Luke's death absolutely being one of them. Nothing in life is that black and white. He created and wrote the story from scratch while collaborating with several company functions along the way. That's the way professionals work. I'm not sure what's so surprising about that, unless I'm misunderstanding your point? (I'm jumping in this thread a little late in the game, so apologies if I am.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
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  3. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    From scratch could mean, "here's what we were thinking overall for the vision of this story..." *outlines some things in the abstract without many specifics* + not giving RJ anything this story specifically had to be. RJ watches the dailies of TFA while JJA is creating it (and JJA has also been collaborating) and sees where the story speaks to him and what is most compelling, connecting ideas between all sorts of things and comes up with his own abstract ideas for TLJ. While working on writing it, he talks with the story group and CF trying to flesh this out on the concrete level and asking questions, some of which would be for information about Canon. Oh and not counting this, there's whatever he was reading and applying to his ideas. Anyway eventually a first draft emerges and then there is more discussion... As you see it's both "from scratch" and "collaborative."
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
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  4. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    Nothing is surprising about it. Exactly. I’ve been arguing this for ages with people who thought RJ was saying that he just went by the TFA dailies, movie, and script. Because that’s what it sounded like.

    ETA: @oncafar

    Not the tune RJ used to sing...

    To put it simply: RJ used to emphasize how much free reign he was given to do whatever he wanted with these characters, with very little to go by. And fans took him very literally and argued accordingly. Despite said view of the process being, imo, patently absurd.

    Now, he’s running in the opposite direction, emphasizing how much of a group effort the movie was.

    Two utterly different impressions.

    At least now RJ is talking like he’s on the same page as the rest of LFL.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
  5. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Co-Purveyor of ST Trivia star 4 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2001
    Yes, they collaborate, moreso for continuity. RJ collaborated with JJ bridging the gap between TFA and TLJ. He asked that BB8 be swapped out for R2 for the journey to Ahch-to. RJ also collaborated with Claudia Grey, reportedly wanting some sort of details in Bloodline that he may draw up on in his work

    With a multifilm project there likely common points where their stories all need to meet. For example, we need Rey to get to Ahch-To by the end of TFA with Artoo on board so that Artoo can cheap shot Luke with a video of Leia in TLJ.

    We need Kylo and Rey once again enemies at the end of TLJ to make the springboard to IX something JJ (or CT at the time) wanted to start his saga.

    Collaboration and baton passing is essential so that certain themes and elements transition cohesively from one film to the next. It's making sure that Rey doesn't have one parent in TLJ and JJ gives her a different on in IX. (And this was a problem with the OT. Vader was not intended originally to be Luke's father. It was a later decision and why many old school fans like myself were so jarred by the WTF-ness of it at the time. Same goes for Leia as his sister. They were later decisions.)

    But there is much more cohesiveness in the ST. I suspect there is an agreed upon starting point, and end to TFA, and end point with who is alive and who is not by the end of TLJ and a final decided endpoint for IX. Parentage was likely decided, moreso along the lines of "who is not related to who" and not "X, Y, and Z are secretly related."

    How they get to each point is that artistic license that each writer has. It's why we have Amilyn Holdo. Is she important in TFA or IX, no, but she is the macguffin that the resistance needs to make it to IX. It's why we have porgs. These unessential elements each give the individual film nuance, and those bits of nuance are what the writers were free to create because they don't affect the hard stops at each end point of the film.

    If it is agreed upon that Rey is not a Solo/Skywalker, then RJ has the latitude to make her the child of addicts. But it's vague enough to allow JJ to add more to the story as long as the "Not a Skywalker" is the endpoint. He has the latitude and artistic license to still make her a Kenobi, Fett, Mothma, Madine, Dadonna, etc because it doesn't change the goalposts of the over reaching story arcs and character development. I suspect that is why RJ has been so coy about more details and suggesting that JJ can alter it a bit. Because at the end of the day it isn't about last-minute making her a Skywalker but rather JJ has a way to add nuance ot her background and fill in the blanks without altering the story much.
     
  6. KembaSkywalker

    KembaSkywalker Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2016
    Oh! Okay, we're in agreement, lol. Sorry. To be fair, he probably did go by those things. But he was also highly collaborative with other folks at Lucasfilm. Because ya gotta be when you're making a movie this big.
     
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  7. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    And to me the point is that when RJ says that no one told him what Rey's parentage has to be, I don't see a reason to think he's lying. Why would he be lying when answering questions about his personal experience? And it doesn't contradict anything else he has said. It doesn't contradict "by scratch" or "collaborative." I seriously don't understand what the problem is.

    And if JJA and RJ and the story group had similar ideas independently about Rey's parentage anyway, TFA and TLJ are in sync regarding it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
  8. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    See, what you’re describing was simply not considered by a lot of fans to be on the table back when RJ was stressing the massive amount of freedom he was given, with “no interference.” Drove me bonkers :p

    ETA: @oncafar

    I don’t believe he’s lying either.

    Yet we obviously have very different interpretations of what he means.

    I feel that stuff such as what he said in yesterday’s Q+A more closely represents my interpretation of what he’s been saying and - more importantly to me, what KK, PH, and JJ have been saying.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
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  9. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    Collaborating doesn't mean he didn't have free reign. It's like this was just explained in the preceding posts. I haven't perceived RJ as "changing his tune." Making a movie is a collaborative process. RJ was the key creator for TLJ. He came up with the story. There isn't a conspiracy here. And also maybe not everyone was taking RJ's statements the way you are saying. My opinion hasn't really changed about it. But if one were to take everything I've ever said in this hyper-literal bit-logic way, then suddenly it would all seem contradictory. I think the same thing is happening here with RJ's statements as you are referring to them.

    By "no interference," that means no one jumped in and said, "RJ, this is the story you must write. Nope, you can't include that. Nope, Rey can't be that. No, no, no. You have a limited box you can work in, and this is your box and don't you dare step outside it."

    IOW, RJ didn't feel his creative process was stifled. He felt it was assisted, that he was supported and encouraged, and thus was able to really get out the vision of things he saw.

    Is there a limit to these things? Yes. Trevorrow was dismissed due to "creative differences." Obviously, his vision and how he was going about things wasn't working with KK and everyone else. They voted "no confidence" in Chancellor Trevorrow's creative leadership. RJ OTOH found himself on the same page as those he was collaborating with. He was a good fit for the job.

    And I mean obviously if RJ pitched some script in which Rey discovers her parents were giraffes, it wouldn't be allowed.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
  10. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Co-Purveyor of ST Trivia star 4 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2001
    When I look at hard stops, those are likely the agreed upon points in the saga that were non-negotiable, and likely the only thing that has hard stops is the Upper Story, aka the Force Story. how they get to these points are left up to each creative team. They may include the following

    TFA:
    Rey meets Han Solo
    Rey and Kylo meet
    Rey and Kylo duel
    Rey wins, Kylo survives
    Rey meets Luke
    Rey is not related to any of the major players
    Snoke is introduced
    Han Solo dies

    How they get from each point to another is entirely up to JJ. Things like Poe's role wasn't defined (case in point, he was supposed to die, but then he didn't), Maz and her role in the film, whether or not Unkar Plutt leaves Jakku, etc. The macguffins (BB8 and the map, maz and the lightsaber) were left entirely up to the writer to create as he wanted.

    TLJ:
    Rey and Luke meet
    Rey and Kylo meet
    Snoke Dies
    Luke dies
    Rey is reunited with the Resistance
    Rey does not turn
    Kylo does not turn
    Rey, Kylo and Leia survive

    Things that are left up to artistic license: Phasma and her whole storyline, the macguffins of this film (DJ--getting Rose and Finn onboard the Supremacy, Holdo, to make sure the skeleton of the Resistance makes it out alive, the Forcebond to bring Kylo and Rey together, the force cave), the casino, the master codebreaker, Max, the porgs, the crystal foxes, and Poe's entire storyline did not need to meet any benchmarks set ahead of time. Any of the other characters could possibly be written out, die or vanish and it would not change the outcome at the end of TLJ. Sorry Poe, Finn, Rose, Phasma, or Hux diehards. None of these are truly hard stops and any writer can expand their roles or kill them off.

    IX
    Always in motion, the future as Yoda puts it. But there are already hard stops we are hearing about
    Leia's fate. (likely her death, and if it was always in the cards for her to die, then it isn't matter of if in this film, The only thing that may change is when because of Carrie's passing.
    Kylo and Rey meet
    Kylo and Rey either team up or duel or both
    Kylo's fate (already predetermined in preproduction of the entire ST. He is they Skywalker heir, and his trajectory has likely always been determined.
    Rey's fate
    Rey, Poe, Finn survive (KK has said as much.)

    Anything else, the macguffins, the body count otherwise is up to JJ when he writes the script.

    Mapping it out this way really emphasizes that it is ultimately the Upper story that dictates the under stories. And it apparently shows me at least that the main focus of film is all about Rey and Kylo embodying the Force story. Anything else could be altered and not change their trajectories.

    ETA: Trevorrow being shown the door makes me wonder if he was messing with the hard stops. Because altering a hard stop could really mess with continuity and overall tone for the entire saga.

    That or he was just a jerk to work with as also reported. *shrugs*
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
  11. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    I don't even know if there were that many hard stops. I remember reading some quote about how originally Rey's parents or parent figures would be killed by the FO and then she'd meet Luke on the road (total copy of ANH!). Then later they worried Luke would overshadow Rey too much and no one would care about her story. Enter Han Solo as TFA's OT character. And I remember reading JJA was the one who really wanted the OT characters to feature so prominently. Originally Rey and Kylo were to fight to a draw but then that was changed to Rey winning. There's just a lot of steps to working to a finish story when it's something this huge. KK had that vision of Luke and the sand covering him (which I'm not sure what it meant, but I bet it's in here). JJA wanted this to be a quest about finding Luke in a way--he's mysteriously disappeared. There was going to be a scene where people held hands and the lightsaber was passed between them or something? The lightsaber was the thing they were all looking for before it became Luke? Anyway there have just been SO many iterations. I honestly think that JJA wrote the "mystery box" to leave all the possibilities open, even though he and RJ seemingly settled on Rey Unrelated-to-Skywalkers. Admittedly I think this of JJA because he talks about the excitement of all these possibilities and anything being possible in quotes. I think that JJA loves possibilities and might be less fond of closing them off.

    The question of "who is Rey" I think was more left to RJ because it wasn't covered too much in TFA. So it was a bigger part of TLJ to address it (though as DR says, "with answers come more questions"). RJ has commented on what he was thinking WRT Rey.

    I really do think there is probably an overall vision to all of this, an idea of what the ST as a whole is about. That is very likely less negotiable. But it didn't impinge on RJ's creative freedom as he saw it either.

    ETA: Oh, and early on there were things like Snoke might be female, and maybe the Jedi Killer is unrelated, and ... I mean it's been changed up A LOT.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
  12. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    In GL’s treatment, at least, Rey had been living with people not her biological parents.
     
  13. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jan 10, 2017
    I think that if Rey is "Random" it's that the overall meaning of this story was more important than which character(s) were the Skywalkers. If the Jedi Killer can be switched from non-Skywalker/Solo to Solo, then Rey could be switched from Solo to non-Skywalker/Solo. They might be more concerned with the overall meaning of the story as a whole than with how many next generation Skywalker/Solos there are as well.

    Also, if Rey was going to meet Luke on the road after her parent figures were killed by the FO, it seems Luke was supposed to be in this role of "teacher" from the beginning, rather than father.

    I mean the story could have been Rey and Finn were originally Solos and the Jedi Killer unrelated. Then that got switched, and Finn became a stormtrooper (not a Solo anymore). The key story may have been this relationship between Rey and the Jedi Killer all along. And even though Finn is now not related to Rey, DR has said they are *like* brother and sister.

    At this point I think that Rey Sky/Solo if that were to be the case would fit better as Leia's daughter but she concealed her pregnancy than trying to finagle some backstory with Luke.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
  14. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    Yeah, Luke appearing was totally the only thing that could have done that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
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  15. TheEvilQueen

    TheEvilQueen Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 22, 2018
    We're going to have to agree disagree. The slow hand holding scene by the fire while they look into each other's eyes, the up close and personal elevator scene where they're staring into each others eyes and at each other's lips, The accidental force-timing while Kylo is shirtless.....those kind of scenes are used in romance, not for cousins. Kylo's proposal to Rey called to mind Pride and Prejudice and Darcy's terrible proposal to Elizabeth - how much he wants/loves her in spite of her nobody family and that he's making some kind of special allowance for her. Makes sense to me why Eddie Redmayne read from Pride and Prejudice when he tried out for Kylo.

    If we got Rey Sky in 9, I would fully expect to hear and read plenty of memes and commentary on SW outdoing Luke's minor crush on Leia and Luke/Leia's kiss (which Leia initiated only to make Han jealous and nothing more). The elevator scene alone would provide plenty of lols, and cringing.

    Another reason I never believed in Rey Skywalker is because that would've put the central focus on parent/child, like in the OT - and TFA, the majority of the lead up to TLJ, and TLJ itself, has emphasized the central and most important dynamic as Rey and Kylo. Cousin vs. cousin is a lesser narrative than parent vs. child, sibling vs. sibling ( as in Legends), or star crossed [would-be] lovers that are two sides of the same coin on opposite sides of a war.


    Focusing on Rey, I don't see what Rey Skywalker adds to Rey's personal arc at this point in the ST with interviews and emphasis on (in and out of the narrative) bloodline not being the end all, be all. Snoke and Kylo expected Kylo's equal in the light to be Luke - they put emphasis on bloodline - and they were shocked to see that no, it's not someone from that bloodline, or any other previously known "special" bloodline", but a simple orphan scavenger with nobody parents. Their view is meant to be the wrong one. And a large part of Rey's arc is her internal struggle to realize she decides whether she makes a place for herself in this story and that truly she already has, just like she has found family in Finn and Chewie and BB-8. Her conflict is internal more than external, and getting past her denial and moving beyond her parents is a huge part of her journey from adolescence to adulthood, and that is the path she's finally on after confronting the truth in TLJ. That is the forward path leading into 9. A sudden Rey Skywalker reveal undermines that.



    @oncafar - That's how I lean as well - with everything that I've gone back and read about Kira and the Jedi Killer, I don't think those two were ever meant to be related. My guess is the Kira character was made unrelated when Jedi Killer changed to a Solo.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
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  16. IncessantRamblings

    IncessantRamblings Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2016
    ‘The Last Jedi': Why Rian Johnson Chose That Answer for Rey’s Parents
    http://collider.com/the-last-jedi-rey-parents-explained-rian-johnson/

    “It definitely was something that kind of slowly emerged. The truth is that was never like a driving thing for me in the movie, and I’ve talked a little bit elsewhere about the big decision with Rey and her parents. That’s one of the big things. It’s cutting loose the idea that of her being special coming from lineage. And that is true and I do like that, and I think that’s a good thing. That wasn’t, though, the motivating factor behind that decision. It was more a dramatic decision of ‘What is the toughest thing she could hear about her parents? What is the thing for her and for us what will make her have to stand on her own two feet and will make things the hardest for her?’ Because she’s the hero and that’s her job—to have things be the hardest for her. So it came from that and the other element came along with that, which is something I really liked.

    But I didn’t sit down and think, ‘How do we overturn this whole thing of Star Wars lineage?’ That wasn’t the driving factor. It was almost a byproduct of a natural process of, ‘Oh, this is what’s going to make sense for her as a character, as a dramatic turn there. And that means this, and that’s kind of nice.’ It’s a strange, organic process, I guess.”
     
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  17. Little Ray Sunshine

    Little Ray Sunshine Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 2, 2016
    I agree, Rey Skywalker does not work now. But I don't see that Leia would need to conceal her pregnancy. For whatever reason she has just decided that Rey is not ready for the truth. Everyone else who know about the missing Solo child; Luke, Chewy, R2, and 3po, are waiting on Leia, as it is after all her call (this was no doubt profoundly annoying to Luke as he realized it was part of Leia's leverage to get him to come back). As for Kylo, he seems to have figured it out in TFA, "It is you", but Snoke clearly did not want her to find that out as it would probably solidify her allegiance to Luke, Leia and the Light side, and probably pull Kylo that way as well. So he shows Kylo a vision - she is not your sister, she is just a nobody, her only hope of being anything is through you - you know, pamper his vanity, conceit and pride...I mean a Dark sider would never use that kind of tactic. And as RJ pointed out, it the hardest thing for Rey to face at that point as well, so why wouldn't Snoke throw it at her...whether it is true or not.
     
  18. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    To me a missing Solo child doesn't make sense because I don't think Han or Luke know about one. That's why I go with the pregnancy concealing idea because I think Leia would be the only one who knows. Also, Snoke didn't give Rey and Kylo their visions (Force theme played when they had their visions--they got them from the Force). But Leia concealing her pregnancy and adopting out Rey early wouldn't contradict either of their visions or the understanding Rey has that Leia & Han or Luke are not her parents. She would have been raised by the "adoptive parents" or whoever was raising her after them.

    Kylo IMO doesn't think that Rey is related to him. That was confirmed really by RJ saying that Kylo is telling the truth from his POV. IMO, the "it is you" concerns the Awakening and that Rey is his equal in the Force, not Luke. I think he suspected this but when she pulls the lightsaber at the end, that's when he's certain of it. Snoke became certain of it too at the end of the novelization when he tells Hux that it seems Kylo was right about the girl. He was skeptical of this because he'd expected this "equal in the Force" to be Luke, as he said in TLJ.
     
  19. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    We really don’t know what Kylo knows. We have yet to really get inside his head. We don’t even have a canon explanation for why he wants to be “as strong as Darth Vader” or destroy his family and the past (not ones that make him terribly sympathetic, at any rate). There have been many guesses as to what drives him. But a guess isn’t an in-story explanation.

    I wouldn’t make any rock-solid assumptions until we learn more about Kylo’s past (presumably in Ep 9). As I’ve said before, I absolutely believe a sympathetic backstory is coming, and I’m confused by the idea I’ve seen that we already know everything the story has to say about Kylo’s past.
     
  20. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jan 10, 2017
    I think if Kylo thought he was related to Rey he would have said and done different things than he did. If he's related to her, nothing has indicated he knows that (in fact, much has indicated the opposite).

    This isn't a rock hard assumption. It's more looking at what there is and using deduction.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
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  21. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    Considering we know very little of the 30-year gap, and never got into Kylo’s or Luke’s heads, I wouldn’t make such assumptions re what they would or wouldn’t say/do.

    I mean, I think that if Kylo had romantic feelings for Rey he would never ever tell her “You’re nothing, but not to me,” but obvious other fans disagree...
     
  22. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jan 10, 2017
    Kylo in IX: Rey, I always knew we were cousins. When I said I saw your parents and noted how they sold you, I meant that I saw your kidnappers. I knew they weren't your parents, and I wasn't lying in this scene, so... Well anyway. It's like Luke might as well have sold you for drinking money! He left you with Han, and Han forgot about you. Then he forgot about me. You see? We're the same!
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
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  23. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

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    Feb 28, 2016
    Maybe she will keep her costume
    [​IMG]
     
  24. GregMcP

    GregMcP Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 7, 2015

    That's a pretty common manipulative boyfriend line. "Your worthless. I'm the only one you've got."
     
  25. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Are boyfriends commonly that terrible?

    Thankfully I’ve been with the same person for a pretty good while; if he had ever talked to me that way, we wouldn’t have lasted two minutes afterwards.

    Maybe I think of “romantic feelings” in positive terms and the term I would come up with for what Kylo felt for Rey would be “possessive feelings.” He saw her as something he could collect.