ST Daisy Ridley (Rey) in Episode IX

@anakinfansince1983 @Jedi Jessy
Yeah. It's pretty obvious that KK and JJ aren't going to let that scenario happen.

They've been building up the showdown between Rey and Kylo these past few films.

With Rey getting boons from Han, Leia and Luke. The three people Kylo rejected.

With Finn not meeting Luke in TLJ, there is not a realistic scenario that LucasFilm will use where it's not just a Rey vs Kylo showdown.

It's just not set up that way.

 

The something female characters should always be is human, with all that it encompasses, including flaws and weaknesses, including the good, the bad, and the ugly. Saying female characters have to meet certain personality criteria in order to be considered worthy is in my opinion just a new form of misogyny that's no more appealing than the old form of misogyny.

This conversation is leaving a bad taste in my mouth. I'm going to bow out.

 

At this point, you and Kathleen Kennedy, may have difference of opinion on what a "terrible traditional female character trope" is.

 

No one has as far as I've noticed been able to make a good argument about how Rey is a "misogynistic depiction" aside from arguments about her agency. But the same people apparently don't care about Rey's agency anyway if Finn is in her spot in the story. I just see that many people here hated Rey after TLJ and it's not okay for her character to be as it is. The same people who claimed to be for Rey have then bashed her character once she didn't do what they wanted.

And I am fine swapping out every character in the ST for non-whites. That's not a sarcastic statement about racism. That's a statement that I am not interested in switching the characters (in terms of how they fit into the story) just because of their race. I would rather white people be rare in most movies because it's not like they haven't been the majority in the U.S. for years and years anyway.

Or you could make all the white characters in movies in the roles that are found most bad or insulting. But please design the characters this way from the beginning rather than changing their roles midstream out with the hero over the race of the actors playing them.

 

Luke didn't deal with any of those things until he was 19 and ready to leave home after being raised by loving relatives. Rey's personal tragedy happened before she was able to deal with it, as a very young girl, and she grew up alone. Also you're comparing Luke's entire life experiences across two trilogies when she's currently only 19 and we don't know what lies ahead for her. It is not a good comparison.

 

I'm just saying that she's in charge.

So whatever she greenlights in Episode IX will happen.

 

Then why did they spend the whole next movie fueling the mystery of her parents? Lol.

 

If good girl saves bad boy trope is not allowed in any form, female characters are restricted. Rather than being for different roles for female characters, people instead criticize whatever roles they do have. Male characters have no such restrictions. So once again, women have to only be certain things. And male characters are unlimited.

This is why it's the new misogyny. Rather than focus on increasing diversity of types of characters for women, the focus is on restricting them to a set of approved types

 

I’m sorry, but fantasizing that Finn (or any other male good guy) pops out of nowhere to save the day and steal Rey’s thunder isn’t advocating for the strong female hero to carry the story. That strikes me as coded misogyny that Rey’s accomplishments of heroism must be clarified by the male lens of never greater heroism. It is akin to giving her a big ol’ second place ribbon while still asserting the end point coins not occur until the masculine manly many steps in and makes sure victory is possible.

If you want to cut a female hero off at the knees, you create an ending just like that.

 

Is showing empathy a weakness in a woman?
She actually looked at Kylo and his circumstances, and eventually figured out who he was. She came to the right conclusion.

Kylo isn't a simple cartoon baddie. He isn't simply Good or Bad. And Rey's circumstances aren't simple either. So Rian explored this little dance of emotions between them, and I quite liked it.

 

except I didn't say feminism is anti-men. What I am anti is control over females and their representations in a restrictive form. But please continue to try to villianize everything I say by associating it with things I didn't say and views I would not agree with.

 

Always gotta laugh whenever Finn is brought up in conjunction with Rey it's all of a sudden "but Rey's important, it's her story!!' when I constantly read that no it's not Rey's story, it's hers and Kylo's cuz he's the one from the skywalker line and balance of the force, two halves and it's totally fine that Rey's endgame is that she helps Kylo be redeemed or whatever other fantasy scenario, that's not her being a prop or anything. Oh and don't say anything about sexist tropes that have existed in media forever and how it shouldn't be in star wars cuz that's like totally sexist to say it shouldn't be in it. Yes, women don't have to be just hard and tough or weak and demure, but please don't try to pass off female hero falls in love with male villain as some revolutionary concept and it's wrong to say it's a problem.

Right now, my expectations are super low and the only thing that I'm focused on is if Rey will get a new lightsaber. Anything else just gives me a headache.

 

I'm tempted to say, in any other action franchise, yes it is.

But in Star Wars we have Luke, a male, who showed it to Vader in ROTJ.

So there is precedent for Rey to do it, so it doesn't matter if she's male or female.

 

I don't know what role Rey will find herself in, in IX. I just know this forum has been less fair to her character than anything the writers could have done.

And yes I am not against a female Force hero saving a darksider in a franchise which began with a similar story.

I personally think Kylo has to save himself if that's going to happen, but it's beside the point when faced with what Rey isn't allowed to do.

but Rey DID see it and that perception which the movie tells us about through Rey's dialogue is ignored in favor of saying "Rey is X trope. Rey bad."

this BTW wouldn't cut Rey out of her role as Force hero, IMO.

 

Finn having a big moment against the man who called him "traitor" and put him in a coma is not stoling Rey's place as protagonist, a movie can make both heroes have their moments and a great arc.

And why you all are fine in say that ST is "KYLO and Rey's story" but when someone mention Finn always appears "sexism". And called Finn "other male good guy" is totally ignore that black heroes hasn't the same opportunity than a white male character (villain or hero)

 

It's not that he has a big moment, but that he is the one who actually defeats Kylo... Basically it is like he is the main protagonist. And this would be after Kylo already saved Rey from Snoke in VIII. If Finn had been the Force hero I would be all for him dealing the most with Kylo because that's the set up in these stories. Main hero vs. main villain.

It would be a story in which Rey started out strong, but just became a weak character. I realize some people think she's a weak character anyway after VIII, but I am not sure why you wouldn't then want her to end strong.

 

And it's still stealing Rey's thunder to defeat the other side. That is sexist. It is saying that Rey can't do it on her own, she needs a man to finish the job for her. That isn't empowering, that is making someone else a hero because the hero of the story can't hack it. I suspect there are many women here (myself included) that have busted our humps on a project either in school or work only to have a guy take credit for our endeavors. That happens enough in real life, I don't need to see that type of co-opting of heroism in film.

As for it being Rey and Kylo's story, the Force story is their story. He is the Skywalker, and the story is told through her gaze. It doesn't need an 11th hour crowbar in the middle of the story to elevate another character's importance. Stone Soup is a great kid's story, but in actuality, too many things in the soup sometimes just makes it all not so good.

But that's not to say Finn can't be great or a hero in his own right. The Last Jedi already set up the foundation for him playing an integral role in the War part of the story. And that is where his arc appears to be headed.

Was Han Solo's role in the OT diminished because he didn't offer the killing blow to Darth Vader? Was his importance knocked down a notch because he didn't shove Palpatine down the shaft? Was his heroism any less because he didn't fire the shot that took down the two Death Stars?

I get it, people want Finn to be THE hero. They wanted him to be a Jedi, and some still hold out hope for this 11th hour revelation that he has latent Force abilities. There were people back during the gap between ESB and ROTJ, there were a lot of Han fans that were absolutely convinced that "no, there is another" with latent force abilities was going to be Han. There was the whole Church of Ford/Cathedral of Luke fan war that took place in letter zines before the age of instant trolling on the internet.

But the end of the day, it really didn't matter that Han wasn't a Force hero. He led the battle on Endor. He led with his heart. He was a hero. It didn't need any asterisks beneath his accomplishments, and he certainly didn't need to upstage Luke in Luke's story.

The thing about heroism is it should never be a competition, and I see a lot of people wanting it to be so. Rey has Force abilities, therefore Finn needs them too. Finn is so great he deserves Rey as his girlfriend as if she is some object to be claimed.

The heroes of the Star Wars saga have always had their individual roles. Some in the OT were martyrs (ObiWan) that steered Luke in the right direction and clarified his purpose. Others were teachers (Ghost OBK and Yoda.) Others were heroes in their own right in the War story (Han, Leia, Chewie and to a lesser extent Lando.)

In the ST we have the martyrs (Han and Luke) and we have the teachers (Luke and Yoda). And we have the War Heroes (Leia, Holdo, Finn, Poe, Rose.) And each has a specific role to fill without the need to one-up the other.

Not everyone has to defeat the Big Bad to be great. And with a female protagonist, she should be allowed to exhibit her greatness in her own right. It should be something does on her own during her own hero journey. If Luke had the opportunity to shine on his own in the OT as part of the Force story, why does Rey to have her accomplishments qualified by some hypermasculine guy swooping in from a different story to qualify her heroism?

 

This is how I feel about it too. Rey has a journey to go through that is HER journey. And as much as many are displeased with Rey's treatment in VIII, she's still allowed to have her journey of traveling through the dark and back to the light. No one comes in and butts her out of her story.

And I guess I feel like some of the Luke character complaints and Finn ones are similar. It's like neither is the main hero of the story. Luke isn't Mr. Bad *** who comes in and like does everything and holds Rey's hand while she faces the Force villains. And I wouldn't want Finn to be either.

Do I think Finn should have his epic or heroic moments, or that Finn vs. Phasma could (and should) have been so much better? Yes. But Rey's story didn't contribute to the failing of Finn vs. Phasma.

 

Totally agree. If Finn is going to have a big heroic moment (and I think he should), then it should be something related to his journey in this saga. I'd love to see him somehow start a stormtrooper uprising against the FO. That would be an appropriate heroic moment for him. But Rey's showdown with Kylo should be her own since that's her journey.