ST Daisy Ridley (Rey) in Episode IX

In TLJ who killed the villain Snoke? Kylo
Who fought against the other villain Kylo? Luke

So where's the complains about TLJ doesn't showing Rey as protagonist? She just participed of one fight (against Praetorian Guard) and had to divide this moment with Kylo. Where's the complains about that?

 

Rey is still in her Force story. Vader saved Luke from the Emperor, but Luke was still main hero in his Force story. Rey's primary antagonist though is Kylo, not Snoke. That is the heart of the Force story. Booting Rey out of that primary conflict (HER primary conflict) is booting her out of her own story--the Force story. It's her story from beginning to very end.

Also, that Kylo saved Rey from Snoke AND that Rey was kind of missing at the end of the movie doesn't mean that IX should do even more of these things if we are arguing for a strong female protag. IX is the film in which Rey's influence on the course of the plot in the Force story should be at its greatest.

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If Finn (or Luke) finishes things off for Rey, that would be like Han Solo waltzing into the throne room at the end of ROTJ and saying, "I have unfinished business with Darth Vader. He tortured me and encased me in carbonite."

Luke will be on the floor panting and barely holding onto his lightsaber after engaging in a furious mental battle with Vader.

"I always told you you needed a good blaster at your side, Kid," says Han, raising his blaster at Vader again. "Let's see how well you block my shot this time," he tells the villain.

Vader raises a hand to block shot after shot from Han's blaster but this blaster is no ordinary blaster. Han had it specially engineered. Within half a minute Vader is on his knees and Han shoots a hole right through his heart.

"Now we're even," says Han, as he helps barely conscious Luke up off the floor. "You saved me, I saved you."

Luke leans on Han, grateful, as they exit the throne room.

Meanwhile, Leia takes on the Emperor downstairs with her newly discovered Force powers.

 

Rey is very clearly still the protagonist in TLJ.

 

The relationship and animosity between Snoke and Kylo was far more personal than the relationship/animosity between Snoke and Rey, so it was right for Kylo to be the one who ended that conflict.

Likewise, the animosity between Luke and Kylo was a central part of TLJ, so again, it makes sense that Luke had that confrontation in that film (but note that Luke did not kill or even attack Kylo throughout that entire confrontation, he merely distracted him.)

 

My point is why Finn having a battle against Kylo is called sexism against Rey but it's okay if Kylo fight against /or even kill another villain.

 

Not okay


But then again. Do you count Luke in RotJ with Vader and Palpatine.

 

Rey being unconscious while others finish the story is terrible. Although not the protag this reminds of when Jane needed to be unconscious for much of Thor Dark World so the guys could have a conversation.

I feel like in the context of the fan war which all apparently revolves around Reylo and how some spend much of their time posting about being against it while others spend much of their time exploring whether it is possible, it's detracting from what is going on in a way.

Kylo is Rey's antagonist just as Vader was Luke's antagonist. The Force story centers on main hero vs. main villain and it's part of the path of the Force hero. In this sense, Kylo IS Rey's story when it comes to the Force. (Though so is Luke and the future of the Jedi, most especially.)

This would be so whether it's a story in which Rey and Kylo end their conflict or whether Rey coldly and finally kills Kylo, or whatever other conclusion in between. The Force hero deals with the Force villains as part of their own hero journey. Booting Rey from that is booting her out of her role as the Force protag in the story.

The other thing is that if this story is ONLY about who is more bad *** and making sure the villain's ***es are thoroughly kicked by the most important character of course, the story kind of has as little meaning in the conflict between good and evil as my example in which Han comes in and kills Vader for Luke. Everything that meant something between hero and villain is gone now. It is a story in which you can watch bad guys be beaten, but why does it even matter anymore?

Actually since I brought up Thor: Dark World, that story had a rather meaningless ending in which hero kicks villain's ***. The main villain in that movie was boring, and really kicking his *** was nothing but prowess--might vs. greater might. Yes in the movie it stops the villain from destroying the universe and that's great. It makes me happy when the movie ends that all the realms are saved. But every scene with the villain is dull, and it only worked because Thor vs. Loki held the better conflict between hero and villain, IMO.

(Although I can kind of be a hypocrite with Thor: Ragnarok as I found that hero/villain conflict boring as well. Valkyrie vs. the villain could have been the more intriguing conflict since they have a history which Valkyrie has been somewhat depressed over for over a thousand years. But SEE, even though Valkyrie vs. villain IS the more interesting story, this is a Thor movie, and so she CANNOT be in the main hero role like that. I wish the movie was Valkyrie, but it wasn't.)

And really all of this is why much more of these movies need to have non-whites and/or women in the main protag role from the start. It's like trying to increase diversity through supporting characters only is missing the mark. It's GOOD, but it's not good enough.

 

Exactly. It sends a very insidious message that the girl can't do it by herself. That she needs help to complete her journey and her objectives. In that scenario, it would make Rey the one that needs to be rescued if she can't defeat Kylo or whatever force challenge comes her way.

Finns role is something entirely different than the Force story. His role is not to co-opt Reys. The Force story is told with the Force users. Tarkin didn't kill Obi-Wan, Vader did. Han didn't duel Vader in Cloud City, Luke did. Yoda didn't train Lando. He trained Luke.

And yes, they are going to interface in different ways. Rey and Kylo teamed up in the Force story, not in the war story. The Praetorians had weapons that were impervious to lightsabers. They were made to combat Force users. But in Kylo's story, he's the one that kills Snoke. He did't need Rey's help to do it.

Honestly, pulling out Finn swooping in to kill Kylo just satisfies a revenge fantasy and quite frankly, makes him an extraneous part of the Force story, placed there only for the sole purpose of elevating his character so that he is the top hero.

I get, some fans really want this story to be all about Finn. But it's not. The Force and war stories diverged after SKB. Rey is the hero of the Force Story; Finn is the hero of the War story.

Let's stop with the false equivalencies.

 

That's exactly how his scenario plays out tho -- Rey rendered unconscious & saved by Finn who defeats a conveniently Force-less Kylo --w/Rey's lightsaber, no less-- in a grand finale battle while Rey is out of commission?

If that's not stealing the main heroine's thunder, I don't know what is.

 

It all depends on the story and the relationships formed within that story.
In your scenario, you mention a yet-unnamed villain. The problem is, without knowing anything about that villain and how he/she/it relates to Kylo and Rey, it's impossible to say whether or not it would be appropriate for Kylo to get involved in the fight. If that unnamed villain has some sort of strong connection to both Rey and Kylo, then sure, let Kylo get involved in the fight.

But if we're talking about what we DO know about the sequel trilogy, we know that the Kylo/Rey relationship is much more prominent than the Kylo/Finn relationship, so it makes sense for Kylo and Rey to face off without Finn. Sure, Kylo had some interaction with Finn in TFA, but it's similar to how Han had some interaction with Vader in ESB, yet it would have been out of place for Han to get involved in the Luke/Vader showdown in ROTJ.

 

What exactly is wrong with her killing him? Seeing as how her enemies get cut down like wheat to the scythe by even the poorest of her decisions, if she's left with only that option, what consequences does she even have to worry about in doing so? Not having a relationship with him anymore?

 

If a new unnamed villain showed up, it would probably be Snoke's back-up apprentice. It could fit into a civil war scenario in which the FO is split between Kylo and Hux. Hux loathes Force users for the most part and likes technology > "sorcery" but I could see him rubbing it in for Kylo how he has his own Force champion now. They would be the "Snoke loyalists," working to avenge the Supreme Leader.

It would be complicated for the Resistance having to basically face two enemies at the same time. That would put them in a difficult place. So Kylo's chance for redemption would be giving up his power. He can't fight both the Resistance and Hux. And he can't join Hux (as Hux will not have that). This would force him into a position in which he is amenable to allying with the Resistance. But for redemption, he has to overcome his selfishness--that is using the Resistance so he can retake the power after vs. giving up his power, and realizing there is a way to "let the past die," just not the way he wanted.

Rey would probably be for an alliance in this situation because the Resistance perhaps can't fight both these factions. Poe would likely be against the alliance.

I am not sure how all the fights would go. The KOR kind of throw a wrench in things because whatever side they are on kind of tips the numbers. Meanwhile, Rey is the only GOOD Force user.

At least in the novelization Rey thinks Kylo needs to learn he is the Force's instrument, and not that it's his instrument. The only time in the movies a fight works for Kylo is when it's what the Force wants. I think the Force wanted Rey and Kylo to defeat Snoke. As soon as Kylo parted from that though, things started going very badly for him. So Rey might be trying to get Kylo to *get this*. And that could be part of a redemption story.

Given how many Force users are involved in this if KOR are still alive, I can definitely see Finn being involved to some extent in the Force plot. The PGs were pretty formidable thanks to their suits and weapons, and the Mandalorians have been able to face off with Force users thanks to technology.

But all of this is like "technical" and kind of missing the heart of the story, which is... I'm not sure.

 

Because Star Wars isn't a revenge fantasy. He is the last Skywalker. To quote Rey from TLJ his ultimate path (may) not be decided. Rey is good at two things: Fixing things and waiting (I forget who said that, maybe RJ.) To me that reads she is the one that can be a catalyst for change when the time is right, not the Angel of Death.

Also, there is KK who is on record talking about Star Wars being always about optimism, forgiveness, grace, etc. Striking down the last Skywalker really doesn't seem to fall in line with those aims.

So no, I don't see Rey being the bringer of death

 

There is a lot of foreshadowing in TLJ (both film and novel) that Hux will be the one to "dethrone" Kylo. I am hoping there will be an actual time skip this time between films, so we can see the long-term effects of Supreme Leader Ren on the GFFA before he gets defeated.

I agree that Finn should be leading others in the war, and perhaps he will now that he is committed to the Resistance.

 

No matter what happens, I just can't see IX coming down to a simple fight between Rey & Kylo. We already had that in TFA and she won. If she was going to lose the fight it would have been in TFA not IX. No one is under any illusions that the heroes will lose in the last episode of the Skywalker Saga (and rightly so). So there's no drama in seeing that fight repeated. The biggest narrative drama comes from whether or not Ben/Kylo will be redeemed so the focus will most likely be on their relationship, finding balance and finding redemption.

 

How can this be stealing her thunder if the big battle in TLJ didn’t even involve her but that didn’t steal her thunder? That doesn’t make any sense.

 

I assume you're referring to the Luke & Kylo confrontation as the big battle of TLJ. The issue isn't just battles, it's conflicts. Luke & Kylo had a conflict that was built up & needed resolution, but it's still not the final battle or main conflict of the ST, that's whatever happens between Rey (main heroine) & Kylo (main villian) which will resolve in Episode 9.

That Finn fan scenario replaces Rey w/ Finn as the one to resolve that ultimate conflict in 9. The only thing Rey does in that scenario is set up the odds so Finn can win. That makes no sense after all the build up of a Rey & Kylo conflict.

 

But then Adept's scenario goes one step further and Rey is rendered incapacitated and out of the blue, Finn shows up and defeats Kylo with Rey's lightsaber.

In other words, Rey can only do so much, but she needs a man to finish the job.

No thanks. We have enough examples in real life of women putting in the work only for a guy to swoop in at the last minute and getting credit.

 

Yeah, that's a lot of rationalizing. Either the central conflict is about the protagonist, or the protagonist has been demoted.

Finn playing an important role in the final battle with Rey will never demote Rey as much as Kylo vs. Luke while Rey has disappeared.

 

Call it what you want, I don't care. I disagree that Rey has to be in every single battle or conflict or else she's forever demoted from her status as the main heroine.

Finn playing the most important part in the central conflict in the final chapter of the story instead of Rey is what demotes Rey, far more than Kylo & Luke having a confrontation in the second chapter of a three chapter story.

 

I didn't use the word "forever." She was demoted in TLJ. In light of that, it's just an odd conversation to me. Finn helping out and playing a role in the final battle that is still centrally about her imo would be wonderful. It would actually be about the new heroes, and Rey would once again be treated as the protagonist, unlike in TLJ.

Kylo and Luke didn't just have a confrontation in the middle chapter of Rey's trilogy. They had the confrontation. It was the final battle that the entire movie built to. Rey played the role of sounding board for these two whiny emo central characters and their interpersonal drama.