ST Daisy Ridley (Rey) in the ST

So you believe they actually have an over arcing plan, this is where you and I disagree (Acording to Rian they let him do what he wanted so this is why I’m of this opinion). also ESB didn’t have a **** side story like Finn/Rose or misplaced humor so the change in tone felt better and suited it IMO.

 

While I think the writing criticism is unfair regarding her perantage, I think it's fine people wanted Rey to be related to someone (though I don't think it was hinted at). But I think the bold step they took required guts and shows the wanted to have a message behind it (and I think it's a positive one)

 

Where did I say anything about an overarching plan?

They have gone through the same development process that has been used on every previous SW - one film at a time - with a couple of differences. One - George was always de facto the final decision-maker so what he said went. Two - there was no story group before to try and smooth over the seams and seed in details elsewhere. Three - the development overlaps way more than it ever has before. RJ cracked the TLJ story before TFA had even finished filming, and I believe after this point, JJ was able to tell Daisy for certain who she was (despite him having also come to the same conclusions as RJ). The first draft was also delivered while JJ was still in the edit on TFA (I think in March) so the idea one didn't know what the other was doing is wide of the mark.

And I bet if you went back to 1980, you would find people arguing about the shift in tone and story direction that ESB took. ESB took years to cement its reputation as the best of the saga. There would have been complaining the same kind of issues back, I have zero doubt about that, just as they've argued about every single SW film and re-release since then.

I'm going to argue that opinions of Finn and Rose's story and misplaced humour are subjective. I actually do feel like you could tone back some of the humour, and I do think ESB is better than TLJ in many ways (though not all). But in my professional opinion, while some of the tone is not always to my personal taste, the writing is often superior on a character and thematic level than TFA. Now, yes, RJ could tell the story he wanted - but he's not building from a blank slate. He's building from TFA. And the backstory that he inherited (and then shaded in the details to) was the one he inherited from JJ and the one that was mostly in play from when George was still involved.

The idea of the Jedi Killer betraying Luke, destroying Luke's academy and a broken Luke Skywalker going into exile on his own, before a young Jedi hopeful finds him and eventually Luke is revitalised - that all comes from the very first backstory, and it hasn't changed in the broad strokes, other than getting pushed back to TLJ. The saber toss. I would change. The best is good and correct, but the irreverence is not worth the howls from some fans. But the Rey stuff? That's all seeded in TFA, and we're meant to be hit by it because Rey is hit by it. It's a slap in the face to Rey. Rehashing the same twist as I am your father would have been worse, in all the wrong ways.

 

Lol Rey was not set up in TFA to care if her parents were nobodies.

 

No, but she was set up to be in denial.

 

Sure. Not sure what that has to do with my pretty specific point, but absolutely Rey was in denial in TFA. I always saw her that way. It was usually my number one point against “Mary Sue” arguments against her. She looked actually pretty foolish to me, in a naive and sweet way, except for the fact that I believed she would be at least somewhat redeemed by being shown to be correct that her family does love her.

 

Creating a story that your parents are going to come back and because of that you cannot leave the planet when you know they are dead on the planet is crazy.

 

So people who suffer massive trauma and abandonment who develop coping mechanism are inherently crazy?

 

Sorry to interject but why would being correct about her family loving her redeem Rey? The choice of word seems a bit odd.

 

Agreed. Rey and the audience were longing for something that didn’t exist. Just like how Rey assumed Luke would just return to battle because she wanted him. Expectations vs reality.

 

Redeemed in the sense that she’d look less foolish, that she wasn’t totally in denial about obvious truth for absolutely no reason. If there was a substantive reason for her to be convinced of something so utterly unbelievable, it would help her credibility. Now, in hindsight, I think her POV re: her family in TFA is even more ridiculous. Our protagonist is basically delusional.

 

If she knew her parents died, then yes. It isn't clear whether or not she knew. She might have had a feeling, which Kylo exploited, but whether that guarantees they were dead is left open.


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I beg to differ:

 

Yes! She's delusional. That's the point in both TFA and TLJ. What's the problem with that?

 

I personally don’t put any weight to these books, especially now. Since I believe them when they say they have no plan, this book was written before IX’s arc was conceived of. Maybe they considered putting it in TFA, but then they changed their minds, and it’s irrelevant now.

And hey, if I’m wrong, great. RJ would get back credibility that RJ stole from her imo.

Is this... are you joking? I honestly can’t tell.

If you’re serious, I guess the problem with it is I think that’s a terrible, uninteresting, pointless arc that deprives Rey of an arc that would actually be relatable in a more universal way? Instead I watch TLJ and think, “oh, Rey’s just stupid”?

 

That was written and added after TFA. If you believe it has no weight, then you are saying that LFL’s claim of what is canon is not entirely true.

And if they actually have no plan, that fundamentally calls into question the claim that stuff relevant to future films is being “seeded” in the EU. It also means that JJ has lied. And KK has lied. And CT has lied. And PH has lied. And that only RJ has been telling the honest truth.

To be direct: They must be bending the truth about *something.*

 

Yes I'm serious. Rey being delusional (first about waiting for her family to return, then about that why they left her) is a character flaw and it's a character flaw that she can and does correct. And in doing so, she undergoes change and growth. So it's absolutely not pointless, objectively speaking, and it's not uninteresting either, since it's a flaw that we have never seen before in a Star Wars hero. People delude themselves everyday (heck, we have a whole section of the fandom right here who think the prequels are 10/10 masterpieces!), so it's very relatable and universal. It also emphatically kills any Mary Sue arguments.

And if your thought is honestly just "oh, Rey's just stupid?" then what a narrow view of the arc. This was a delusion she started as a child, presumably to mask the trauma of being abandoned. I don't know how you can so confidently claim that there was absolutely no reason for her to delude herself either. All delusions provide comfort and/or escape from a difficult reality, that's their function.

 

This is a long winded way of saying that Rey’s emotional arc is to overcome being crazy.

Edit - I absolutely agree with you on the Mary Sue stuff. I have never bought it and I still don’t. I do think, though, that Rey was done a disservice by JJ and RJ in being deprived of an arc struggling with her force abilities. Her innate, unearned strength in the force makes Luke look silly in hindsight and it makes her heroism less interesting.

 

That's an extremely negative way of the looking at it. I know you hate these films and these characters, but must you always go for the most cynical and negative view you can muster? Doesn't that get exhausting after a while?

edit - and to state the obvious rebuttal, a delusion doesn't necessarily mean a mental disability/problem.

 

I do not hate these films or characters, so I guess you don’t “know” what you think you do. And I’m not here to talk about my cynicism lol.

Rey had no rational reason to believe so deeply what she believed, and because of this irrational belief, she hurt herself by remaining in her own personal hell. Rey is Rey’s biggest enemy. Rey’s lack of rationality is her problem. Rey knew all along that her parents were dead and didn’t care about her. It’s sad, yes, but it’s so damaging to her credibility with me.

 

Why does it damage her credibility for you, when that irrationality was born from trauma when she was a child? Aren't you applying pretty high (and adult) standards to a child left abandoned with someone like Unkar Plutt? What else was she to do in your mind, just cowboy up and get on with life?

You are aware that other people read your posts right? You've said pretty much nothing but negative things the last month or so...

 

That is a very generous reading because in TFA she's distinctly waiting for her family to come back and we specifically see support that she was left by said family who departed Jakku on a ship. After her encounter with Maz she's told that she knows the truth and that they are not coming back. So by the end of TFA she doesn't look back to Jakku waiting for her family but forward to Luke. She might have an unhealthy fixation but not to the point of total delusion. She knows her family is alive so they might come back because they in fact can.

With TLJ the terminology becomes parents as opposed to family. Now Rey has apparently been hiding the truth about her parents from herself and others in deeply delusional ways. Now she always knew that her parents were "junk dealers that sold her for drinking money." So what is the cave about wanting to see her parents? So which is which? Are the parents different from the family? Does she know which is which? Is she clear on what is going on now?

If that is the case then why not tell us in the audience to clear it all up? Why create a mystery in TFA in the first place if it's so simple? Why not just get it over with in the first place? Why create mystery that lasted for two years just to make things even more unclear?

What the point is still a question. TFA and TLJ don't agree on what is going on. If TFA is to be believed then Rey has no strong reason to suddenly ask about the parents

That rather undercuts the argument. That the prequels (and OT) are masterpieces makes total sense and is not delusional. I don't know what it has to do with MS arguments. What exactly Rey's flaws are is not very well handled because they don't define them or make them anything that she can't get by. She moves them to the side quickly.

The question is as ever is there a real plan or do simply not know what to do? I'd have to guess that after two movies of this then there must be a plan to resolve this identity crisis in the third movie. If not then there has been a lost of needlessly confusing and confused storytelling for no other purpose than to mislead the audience. Character and story has been set aside for plot convenience (which is what they did with Finn so at this point it seems more likely).

I certainly hope it's not the old trick where they create mystery and intrigue rather than actually tell a story about a character.

The character can be whatever they need her to be when they need it as opposed to having an actual character that the story flows from.

 

Ha, we all know that when it comes to family, rational thought always wins the day.

Luke thinks he can turn Vader. Is that a fully rational thought? Or is it one strongly biased by wanting to believe that somewhere under the mask resides the good man that was his father, despite loads of evidence to the contrary?

 

Rey in TFA is not a child. I am applying standards that I would to any protagonist, namely that I would rather empathize with their story, relate to it, and respect the character. It’s better to understand how someone can make the mistakes they make. All it would have taken is give Rey some, any actual reason to believe what she believed, even if the reason was misinterpreted. Rey as written in TLJ feels pitiful and silly and foolish to me, and I don’t think that serves her any better than it would any protagonist.

Yes I’m super aware of my opinions and the actually correct way to characterize them. I don’t like TLJ or RJ’s take on the characters at all. You said “these movies.” I love TFA. I love R1. I love the characters introduced in TFA. I love the characters in R1. This is where trying to speak for other people causes problems and perhaps why discussing posters is against the rules. You taking leaps to incorrectly characterize my opinions doesn’t serve the discussion.