ST Daisy Ridley (Rey) in the ST

yes and you can only see your perspective so rather than attempt to understand where anyone else is coming from, you change what they say to what matches your bias. And then, shockingly, people feel like they are not being understood and what they are saying had been misconstrued. We all do this to some extent but it's like you can't see it at all...

 

[QUOTE="Qui-Riv-Brid, post: 54905432, member: 1378278"]My comments in bold:

I just don't see how this really plays in the movies though. It's more a theme that maybe can be drawn out when applied but not one that is actually inserted by the writers except in the most tangential ways possible and even then it seems like it's one that was thought of after TFA at best.

I really don't see much application of these to Rey. Is Rey really attaching herself to people? Not actually. This is what causes confusion in the character because we see that she doesn't in TFA but then TLJ says she does except that she really doesn't.

It's the same old roller coaster writing. It's a fun ride but loopy and makes you dizzy.[/QUOTE]

As always, I appreciate the time and effort you’ve put into this reply. Thank you for that.

If I’m honest it does feel like debate for the sake of it though. What I am saying is that a young adult who was abandoned, and whose mind has been read to reveal how she’s lonely and cries at night, and who we’ve seen struggling to come to terms with her past via discussions and Force visions and repressed memories seems to have abandonment issues which are a real phenomenon and then I shared some common ones and said that I see potentially 3 and perhaps even 4. And basically what you’re seeming to say is that they’re all debatable and inconclusive.

Sure. So are a lot of things we think we know about Luke Skywalker through 2 films or Anakin. There seems to be enough there for this to at a minimum be one of the most plausible explanations for what’s below the surface with her and also why she makes some of the questionable decisions she makes. Does she need to say it out loud. “I’m doing this because of my abandonment!” because I doubt that will happen or should.

I do agree that the isolation and not being trusting are the 2 that standout as the most iffy, which is why I said 3 (and possibly 4). She certainly chose to live in isolation on Jakku but it’s true that once off it she is warm to others she thinks are with the Resistance movement. So, that one is iffy. The one about being untrusting is easily the one that doesn’t apply at all but I did find it interesting that the exact opposite was true and I do think the way she moved from Finn to Han to Luke to Ben quickly does show aspects of that. I really believe her abandonment and this common trait observed in people with abandonment issues helps to better explain how she moved from person to person alongside the longing and desire to belong we’ve heard from people who can read her mind or who know eyes like Maz.

To me, it’s pretty clear that she’s struggling with these issues and we are seeing them manifest in different ways.

 

yes but the bias of this forum is on your side. And that's what makes this different. The other thing that makes it different is that mocking isn't civil discussion and the idea was we should try to be civil, but of course many people (myself included) struggle to be civil and not trample over others in a stampede of little micro misunderstandings, misrepresentations, and caustic snark that add up to something worse.

 

Johnson did choose the hardest things possible for each primarily character. He’s been clear about that. He thinks that’s where we learn more about these characters and also knows that this is the middle chapter where obstacles and mental setbacks should occur in storytelling.

Some seem to want wish fullfilment movies where all of the setbacks involve lost hands and everything else is sunshine and rainbows but that’s not drama.

The middle chapter needed tests and setbacks and pain and some suffering and some increased complexity in relationship dynamics and Johnson delivered and now JJ gets to deliver the he crowd pleaser of IX.

 

How are the relationships more complex? Making characters inexplicably give up their values in order to progress the plot isn't adding complexity.

 

Having a character face the toughest thing they can face and 20 seconds later it might as well have never happened?

Vader’s revelation to Luke, and its aftermath - THAT was emotional drama. We saw nothing of Rey processing what Kylo told her. 20 seconds later and it might as well have not happened.

Not much showing in TLJ, really. Kylo’s murder of his father has “split his soul to the bone”? That’s nice, Snoke, but I saw no evidence Kylo grappled with that act. Or regretted it, frankly. (SHOW me the angst!) I felt the narrative gave us little insight into what was going through the characters’ heads. I think JJ was MUCH better with that sort of thing.

Pity LFL and RJ felt the need to keep the rest of Luke’s story and Kylo’s motivations and fall (?!) under wraps. Still. I strongly suspect that LFL had a few overarching story goals that were fundamentally awkward to reconcile.

I think 2 more films (9 pts 1 and 2?) are necessary at this point.

 

The relationships are more complex because the hero and villain, have helped each other, like aspects of each other and don’t want to have to kill each other, and because the villain doesn’t seem to like any of the old groups and wants Rey to be with him and rule with him.

The relationships are more complex because while Rey was coming to sympathize and touch Ben Solo... Finn developed some feelings for someone beyond Rey for the first time in the story, and more than that decided he’s done running or thinking only about Rey. He’s found a movement.

The relationships are more complex because Poe is developing as a leader and is going to have to continue to be less heroic and popular and learn how to make better use of his crews.

The relationships are more complex because Rey and Luke both saved the Resistance together and have reason to be on better but different terms heading into IX and where they’d last fallen out as Force ghost and the last potential human Jedi.

 

I think it might be that the movie cuts one off from Rey's inner world too much.

I think TFA wasn't great with the inner world of characters either, and I couldn't quite connect with Rey in TFA due to that. I can connect with her a bit more in TLJ, but she is still very distant. I put these things down to character set up a lot. I didn't feel like TFA had good set ups for Rey or Finn. So progressing them in TLJ is kind of like trying to build houses on ground that's shaking. And RJ isn't my favorite possibly when it comes to presenting the inner world of a character because he seems to show characters in these very subdued ways.

So I don't really know exactly why Rey is feeling what she is, or really always exactly what she is feeling. Finn is even less clear to me. And even Kylo doesn't really show any signs of the conflict Rey and Snoke report he is feeling.

So it's like this disconnect from the emotional journeys of the characters.

 

Kylo showed conflict. If there was none he wouldn’t have spoken to Han at all or teared up as he did it. He tells Snoke he didn’t hesitate but he clearly did.

If there was none he would have fired his missiles on his mom.

Most importantly he would have killed Rey the 4 times he could have but didn’t. Snoke makes the execution of Rey his final training lesson because he knows Rey is now the biggest weakness he has developed.

The most interesting aspect though is that previously something like the reveal that Snoke has conned him and her because he knew he was weak might have been enough for Ben to do something like kill a loved one but in the case of Rey it just makes him finally kill his boss and offer Rey a chance to sit beside him on the throne.

 

Which the hero, in this instance, would never have accepted since there was hardly any setup that allows for it to be believable.

How can Rey sympathize with him when he is basically antithetical to her in virtually every way? They have no common ground on anything. I've pointed this out several times and even mentioned it just now when it comes to the notion of values. She holds family as an important value because she has grown up practically her entire life without one which pits her directly against someone like Ben because he wantonly kills his family at every opportunity for his own gain. They never achieve a new common perspective on this or any other subject.

Finn, on the other hand, is arguably even more worse off as he's basically chained to this entirely superfluous and pointless character who also has no regard for her loyalty whatsoever and is generally moronic. He would have been better off either developing his friendship with Poe or participating in the war alongside the Resistance by himself. Rose is awful.

The only reason any of his actions have consequences is due to Leia being inexplicably helpless (and borderline incompetent) at every turn.

Yeah, maybe he'll tell her all that stuff that happened during his years as master as well as what led Ben down the path he started which he inexplicably omitted for no reason at all in The Last Jedi.

 

It's no more absurd than the reasoning that Rey is a victim because she was forced to see Kylo without a shirt.

 

You act as though people from harsh upbringings and family trauma have never migrated towards abusive relationships before when it’s in fact a very common thing. The film clearly explores and has us worried about her potential for an unhealthy codependent relationship before having her wake up.

Just as the OT explored the concern of a young man with father issues possibly sacrificing his ideals to be with his father at any cost the ST explores the risk of a young woman struggling with issues on the inside who might sacrifice her ideals by manipulation tactics by a man hoping to bring her down to his level.



She avoids an unhealthy codependent toxic relationship and faces her abandonment issues in a more healthy way by the end. Star Wars is very much about coming of age and people all around the world young and old, male and female, who’ve struggled also struggle to avoid unhealthy relationships with others. People with issues seem to have a way of finding each other in life.

 

If you operate under the assumption that her parents' abandonment of her is the only thing that she has had to deal with in life, you would probably be correct. However, that is shown not to be the case. Otherwise, one would have to call into question how she even managed to survive for a decade with this level of naiveté and a lack of understanding when it comes to things like deception. Especially when she has had to live in an extreme environment with scarce resources (that many scavengers most likely cheat, lie, steal and fight for) and a lack of infrastructure.

 

And yet we still don’t know what drives him to want to destroy everything, or why he fell.

Because what we have now is the SW equivalent of a radicalized youth. (Adam used that exact term to describe Kylo, actually.) Radicalized youths tend to be regarded as tragedies for their families but not terribly sympathetic themselves...

And so I’m certain there’s more than just what we’ve been told about Kylo’s past. Something less one-dimensional than “He felt mom and dad didn’t love him enough so he thought he’d give evil a try.”

 

Well, we know she’s been cheated before in EU material so she’s had other issues but few issues are as damaging as parental abandonment and in the case of Rey it’s pretty clearly the biggest trauma she’s endured from how often it’s come up visually or been repressed by her in the first 2 films.

If I have one issue with Rey’s characterization it’s actually less the common complaints, and certainly not the surprisingly grounded in reality issues related to abandonment they seem to have worked in and the risk factors from that, but what you’ve stated a few times now, and you’ve won me over on, is this that her warmth and charm were mistakes for her character in spite of everything else they’re exploring with her and in spite of her harsh upbringing. I think it’s one of the best points you’ve raised recently and I hope it shows I’m not as entrenched as I may seem at times.

She really shouldn’t seem as warm as she does. You nailed it. A lot of the other stuff surprisingly checks out but she probably should have seemed colder and more like a Hannah type or almost like Jaylah in the last Trek film as far as lack of social skills go. They go fish out of water slightly but I would have gone further initially and made her almost seem colder and more socially awkward to people initially and unsure of common things we take for granted. They do it a little with how she’s never seen so much green before but it could have been more. I think if they had done that it would have setup everything explored in VIII even more and made Rey more offbeat while still making her charming. I suspect part of it is Ridley though. She’s just so darn charming and likable and expressive that naïveté really comes naturally so JJ moved it there. I get it from a Light side power perspective, too, and the notion that the Light perhaps found her BECAUSE she is warm and optimistic in the face of trauma and hardship. I also get it from just a general charm perspective but I like oddball characters myself and would have been okay with Rey being a little rougher around the edges and more socially awkward and distant because I think that would have played into the bond with this weird guy Ben even more. Her naïveté gets you there too, and her warmth makes for more of an opposites attract dynamic, but I do think that if she had been a little less warm and optimistic it would have fit the profile of everything else they aim for with the harsh planet and the need for her staff and her abandonment issues leading to Ben more. It would have also made her seem less perfect to some because her social awkwardness would have helped offset for that. Almost like Eleven/Jane in Stranger Things. That’s probably too far in the other direction but there’s a middle ground between the two that I now think would have been better.

 

If you have a problem with what I said take it to Rian. I did nothing but paraphrase what he said. He literally had Kylo be shirtless to make Rey uncomfortable.

It’s got nothing to do with being a victim or not (although Reylos’ insistence that what Kylo did to her in the interrogation room isn’t gross because she manage to fight back is BS. Strong and independent women are victims of abuse ALL THE TIME).

It’s got to do with the fact that Rian deadass thought making a woman uncomfortable in the presence of a shirtless guy was a great idea. For absolutely no reason. The Force bond was already awkward enough.

Nothing to do with “the hardest thing Rey could endure” either. Please. The hardest thing Rey could hear was that her parents were dead and/or terrible people who never cared for her.

Of course, that had already been covered by Maz in TFA. So Rian had to make up a fake narrative according to which Rey actually gives a damn if her parents are nobodies or somebodies.

 

That last aspect isn’t quite correct. Maz only told her that whomever it is she’s waiting for isn’t coming back but there is one who still might.

Now, we can see Rey took that to be more that her parents did leave her but weren’t coming back but she was still afraid to move onto the Why parts and what aspect of that. Why she was abandoned and why they weren’t coming back and what that might mean about her own potential. She faces that in TLJ.

The Maz line also works in a way where she may see it as something she misread. It is Luke’s sword but when he doesn’t come back she knows the man who wanted it badly and who may get come back (according to her vision).

So, I still think the saber and the Maz talk combine with her feelings and her abandonment issues and her confusion over what the Force bridge means and her vision of the future.

She does see if Luke really is the one who might come back one last time by holding out the saber before realizing her impression was wrong and that perhaps it is Ben who could come back.

 

A mod asked me to provide a quote, so I did.

The prevailing message so far in this trilogy is that Rey can handle herself. And, men are victims of abuse ALL THE TIME as well. This includes Kylo who was preyed on by Snoke literally his whole life.

Again you're portraying Rey as the victim here of Kylo's bare chest.