ST Daisy Ridley (Rey) in the ST

Well, she thinks naively and through her abandonment issues and the vision she experiences that if he can be turned he would be a powerful ally who would win the war and save her friends and possibly end her loneliness in the process.

She’s wrong. 19 years old. Never went to school and saw how people her age treat each other. Possibly never had real friendships or relationships. Her life has largely been isolation, day dreams and scavenging. That’s a recipe for some mistakes when she’s out of what she knows.

 

Again, we've discussed why her naïveté is an entirely inappropriate trait for her to have: she has spent more than a decade in an environment that vigorously cultivates cynicism, distrust and deception in order to get basic necessities. The fact that she cannot see this absurdly telegraphed play on Ben's part is laughable.

 

Rey’s loneliness was solved in TFA. That was the entire point of her arc in that movie. She found Finn, and chewie, and Han, and off screen formed a pretty deep bond with Leia. She doesn’t need Han’s killer to solve that problem.

This. How can Rey’s arc be about abandonment issues when she finds belonging with people that came back for her, and then at best displays very questionable loyalty by bonding with the guy slaughtering them.

 

Ben was having serious issues before Leia sent him to Luke. That’s why she sent him to Luke.

And Ben had already turned by the time the bedside scene happened. (Perhaps we’ll learn at some point what horrible stuff Luke saw when he looked into Ben’s mind...)

Again - “radicalized youth.” Not a sympathetic archtype. Unless one wants to argue that he’s actually FUBAR and psychotic? Though that would be fundamentally incompatable with “romance.”

But no. “Romance” is a theory. (Not one I subscribe to, obviously.) But it’s not a canon explanation. And theories - “guesses”? - are not a substitute for storytelling.

Kylo is an interesting character in that he’s clearly being sold as “sympathetic” without the story actually giving us (yet!) a truly sympathetic motive behind his villainy, and without portraying him as actually “in the right.”

We know Kylo isn’t “in the right” because at the end we find him trying to wipe out his own mother and all of the rest of the heroes and screaming at Space Jesus like a demented 8-year-old. (The guy trying to kill the Messianic Hero is usually the Bad Guy.)

I understand loving Kylo as a character, and even finding him sympathetic. The creators obviously intended at least some of the audience to feel that way. But many of the arguments I’ve heard trying to justify, excuse, or dismiss Kylo’s behavior and claiming he’s being positioned as a love interest for Rey, and even claiming that the ST is about him and not Rey (despite all evidence to the contrary) just boggles me. What is the narrative telling us about Kylo? What is the narrative’s position on whether Kylo’s actions are right or wrong, whether his views are right or wrong, whether he’s a Sympathetic Villain or The Real Hero Who’s Just Misunderstood?

I really thought we’d get the meat of Kylo’s backstory in TLJ. I’m disappointed to see that so many believe that what we’ve gotten thus far is remotely adaquate, story-wise. As it stands, he is essentially a radicalized school-shooter. I’m not happy that RJ just doubled-down on that, instead of given us an understandable explanation for Kylo’s behavior.

So many missed opportunities in TLJ :/

 

I just told you his backstory as i understand from what ive seen so far of the character, nothing more. I didn't tell you to like or love him. What Leia did and why she did it doesn't matter, its how he perceived what his family did that matters in his evolution, the same situation with Luke. Snoke simply fanned the flames of anger he felt towards his family, to what extent it remains to be seen.
And the school shooter thing is again a bad comparison just like the "rape" comparison to the interrogation scene. The fact that half of the students went with Ben and got into a fight with the rest says that something more was happening at that training temple. And the fact that Ben found out with the rest of them that he was Vader's grandson could have played into what led to that confrontation between the students.
Again, the pieces are there for you and me to understand his character, whether you choose to piece them together is up to you.
And the romance aspect on Ben's part was confirmed by Rian in a podcast, he straight out said that he was looking at Rey in a romantic light, witch is pretty evident from the movie in my opinion.

 

Trying to sell Kylo as being sympathetic and relatable and at the same time comparing him to radicalized terrorists just boggles my mind. Quotes from Kathy and Adam respectively...

Who thought that would be a good idea? Seriously.

 

Kylo: I killed my own father and tortured/killed 138938283 people

someone: That's okay. You made some bad decisions, but they aren’t necessarily bad decisions within the context of our universe

Kylo's victims:

 

Which could all work. As I said I wish someone like yourself who really is into the character was working on the movies. Those people are not working on the movies though and no one seems to be a real fan of Rey.

Not JJ, RJ or KK or anyone else. If they are then they are showing it in the most bizarre way imaginable.

That I would say is a general reading of Rey in TFA that fits in the movie because it's there. We can argue that it might be done better or her personality or character reflect better from her environment etc but that basic read is there but TLJ says....

TLJ confuses it all. Is she trying to use Ren to help her new "family"? She may be connected with Ren but the disconnection with the Resistance story is perplexing. Why is she in such urgency to get to Ren?

Why this political commitment? I just don't see this Resistance Rey angle as being anything other than something placed on her that simply doesn't jibe. She wants to help them by bringing Luke back and learning about the Force herself. So this drive to use Ren should be a selfish one to use him to help others. Instead it's about saving him which makes no sense at all since from her own experience it makes no sense to think so.

Again make it about her pride and arrogance at her powers that she thinks she can do what no one else can and don't frame it as some altruistic mission for Ben.

 

DP

 

Yeah, it's totally not like this should have been the film where that was developed or anything. Definitely would have made Snoke more interesting. Definitely would have expanded on how Leia's parentage affected her relationship with the New Republic's government and her family as well as how Luke went about training him and every other apprentice under his tutelage.

Well, if it's such a bad comparison, why didn't they give them some presence in the story rather than be faceless and nameless plot devices with no effect on the trilogy? Doesn't that seem like an atrocious oversight to have the turned remnants of LUKE'S NEW JEDI ORDER be complete nonentities? Also, Ben never even struggles with the idea of who Vader even was. You'd think that Luke would have told him about this since Anakin is essentially the ultimate cautionary tale. There is simply no reason for it.

So, what I'm saying is that the pieces clearly aren't there since the films saw fit to not address any of those things.

As for Rey and Ben being kindred, they are not. Ben was born to affluence and a good family composed of good people and then proceeded to squander all of it for his own selfish gain. They weren't taken from him before their time. He got mad at them for doing what was best for him and then hunted them down with the intent to kill them. Rey grew up without a family after her biological parents sold her off and then when she finally finds some semblance of true friendship and family with Finn, BB8 and Han, they start getting hurt and killed by Ben, who clearly holds no value for such things. They couldn't be more different.

The only way she even works in this dynamic with Ben is if you were to ignore all of her prior interactions with Finn, Han and everyone else. She legitimately has no reason to care about Ben nor have any desire to turn him at all. I doubt she'd want to since this is the first time she's probably met someone this unrepentantly monstrous.

 

I think there is some pride and arrogance when she attacks Luke and after says “I’ve seen it. If I go Ben Solo WILL turn.”

But I concede that it isn’t presented as the primary reason she is going. It’s a combination of things.

@AhsokaSolo , I agree that TFA showed she found some welcoming people but none of them understood what was going on inside of her or why or what to do with it given that she saw herself as a nobody from nowhere.

Luke had the opportunity to be the one who provided those answers and while it seems like he was slowly warming up and may have been in a better position to reach more if she’d stayed patient and put the misplaced faith she placed in Ben into Luke longer... her unwillingness to share what was going on regarding the mind bridge ended up surprising Luke and setting him back perhaps even more.

That said, Luke’s earlier concerns about how she reminded of Ben Solo allowed Ben to drive that wedge in between them and the rest his history. She went to Ben to win the war and started to see him as the one may come back but also hoped he’d have more answers for her and that he would change based on her vision. She was wrong.

 

I laughed at the bolded because it reminded me of exactly what TLJ did

 

Wait, so you mean that she prioritizes her Force sensitivity over people who actually care about her well-being? Do you not realize that Finn is also just some kid who got robbed from his home and had his name replaced with a number, essentially being referred to as nothing but a faceless cog in a war machine? Are you genuinely saying that none of the other heroes would understand her feeling of insignificance? Are you kidding me?

 

I think Rey is struggling with the fact that her entire life she has believed she was no one special, and even worthless, and now the world is telling her she is someone special. She doesn't know how to react and is rightly confused about why everyone is seeing hope in her.

 

Yes, I do think she very clearly is almost as driven to find answers about who she could be based on her powers and what to do with those powers as she is winning the war herself in TLJ. She found people who welcomed her in TFA. That’s a good thing but after that she took the next steps forward in her Force awakening journey and by the end she’s suddenly done things strictly from willing them and that justifiably confuses her. It’s understandable that goals might shift heading into TLJ and that she might again feel a little alone based on those Force powers. Winning the war is goal 1A. The search for answers and what her past and this power means to her is 1B which could also help 1A. This wasn’t the case af the start of TFA because she wasn’t further down the Force journey path at the start.

As for the end of your reply, I can only assume by your incredulous response that you have mistaken the intent of what I wrote. By no means did I mean to imply that no one else could understand her harsh upbringing. My intent was that I believe SHE THINKS that nobody else can provide the answers for the “something that’s always been there that’s apart of her that’s now awake that she doesn’t know what to do with.” She still feels different because of this incredible Force power. She’s looking for answers related to what her potential might be and what these powers mean and why she has them. And on-screen it seems she thinks only other incredible Force users like Luke or Ben might have the answers she’s looking for.

 

Wait, okay, look, however you want to rationalize why she’s cool with the guy slaughtering her friends is irrelevant to the point.

You can’t argue that she has abandonment issues at the same time you’re rationalizing why she has little loyalty to people that she cares deeply for that came back for her. The point of Rey being moved by them coming back for her was that it spoke to her abandonment. Except her relationship, if you want to call it that, with Kylo undercuts the idea that that is all that big a deal to her psyche.

As far as your explanation of why her friends just aren’t good enough because they can’t do magic, I think that is absurd on light of her TFA development, but actually in line with TLJ so maybe you’re right. If JJ explores that, Rey will definitely be, in my mind, the most shallow Jedi in SW.

 

Except they aren't. Luke doesn't and if he does at all he never does anything about it. Leia is using her as a bait for Luke. Where is this hope?

Once again it's not actually in the movie but the movie is talking to the audience and is well aware of the existence of them.

Unless you place some Anakin-like angle on it where she'll do something negative to get a positive result for her own sake. Which is not how it's played anymore than the whole confrontation with Luke is. She is actually in the wrong but Luke comes off as the person who is wrong. Except he isn't. He subsequent intervention isn't even on her behalf.

The whole set-up is off-kilter. Yoda says they must not lose Rey. Why would Yoda think they would lose Rey? For what reason? The one place they could have lost Rey was in the throne room. Did Luke show up there? No. So what was Yoda talking about anyway?

 

Right. And Finn just cared for her because of her. He wanted her to run away with him. He didn’t care about her saving the galaxy.

 

When did everyone see hope in Rey?
Did i miss something?

Not once in both TFA and TLJ, ANYONE said they saw hope in Rey.

And i didnt see Rey confused about it either.
Also NO ONE is telling Rey she is special.
The words used wrt Rey are "no one", "nobody", "nothing" constantly by literally everyone.

Her whole arc is that she is a nobody who is becoming a hero.
Which falls flat bcoz she is just another chosen one.

That is the difference b/w Anakin and Rey.
Anakin was the actual chosen one and a slave but they never pushed the nobody angle with him.
He was special and they called him special.

While with Rey they are pushing the anybody can be a hero angle.
Which is NOT working for Rey at all bcoz of her awesome powers she downloads constantly from Kylo.
And does everything without struggling.

The "HOPE" thing in ST is used only in regards to the Skywalkers(mostly Kylo).

Not Rey, not Finn, not Poe.

That is exactly the problem.

The new heroes are not given much importance.
But thats to be expected i guess, since this the skywalker saga and our heroes are nobodies.

I have accepted that a skywalker will dominate this trilogy like the previous 2 no matter if he is a villian or a hero.

 

I mean, even self sabotage would need to be portrayed explicitly, and beyond which, Anakin was obsessed with saving Padme. He didn’t knowingly bond with the person he knew to be trying to kill her. The idea that he would is preposterous.

 

Well, she still put those friends and the possibility of dying in a war that was clearly losing badly before an opportunity for more answers and an easier life at the top of the food chain in a throne next to Ben Solo so in the end she made the right choice and did prioritize her friends over her Force quest.

And actually I CAN argue that someone with abandonment issues OFTEN WILL attach themselves to new relationships quickly because it’s a known phenomenon observed in real people with abandonment issues. It seems to go one of two ways with abandonment. Some fear to get too close to anyone. Others move from person to person quickly and seek to form intense bonds. I think we can all guess which of those two seems more like Rey.

 

I got the impression that Leia, Luke and Maz all see hope in Rey and with the Force having awakened in her she knows that there is somewhere she fits in the story but she can't see it because of her self-made.

 

New relationship with the murderer of the first people she cared for to come back for her? It’s deeply contradictory to me.

 

I sometimes think that these movies can't possibly be this haphazardly written. JJ and RJ are professional writers and directors. Tons of people put incredible time, effort and thought into making these movies. So why should people like us who aren't even backseat drivers find so many problems?

Yet the more we peel back layers the less sense the entire venture makes.

When I do the same for Lucas' movies they make more and more sense to me (not that they didn't already but the connections are so deep that the more they are examined the more they work).

So what's going on?

I think that a lot of it comes from it simply being when things make base sense then that reverberates all over the storytelling and people add in things that just make sense because they know what is supposed to be happening.

In the case of the ST and on this thread Rey the underlying premises and structure the character is based around are faulty. No one was sure about what was happening with her or where to go forward so there is no momentum. Anything goes because nothing works together.

For Leia and Maz they hope she can bring Luke back. So it's not about her. Luke rejects Rey over and over so he's really nothing to him except something to fear. Then suddenly he's calling her a Jedi because...

?

 

Finn isn’t dead.

Han came back for Ben. Ben is Leia’s son. Luke is struggling because of issues he had with Ben.

Has it ever occurred to you that a part of why she’s so excited about the possibility of Ben Solo returning following her vision and her time with him is actually selfless in that as an added bonus it would mean that Han did ultimately get what he hoped, Leia got her son back, Luke and Ben have an opportunity to work it out, the Resistance gets an ally and she gets more of the side of Ben Solo that she does seem to like? The ungloved version who is less Kylo Ren in her mind?

Let’s be honest. That really would have been the ULTIMATE happy ending had it been possible. It’s what Han wanted. It’s what Leia was still holding out hope for in TFA. It would have even given Luke and Ben the kind of second chance to heal the relationship that Obi-Wan and Anakin later had.

She thought that if it all worked out as it seemed in her mind all would be right. I can think of few better reasons than to take a leap of faith than that.