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TFA TLJ Daisy Ridley (Rey) in the ST

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by Darth_Voider, Dec 17, 2015.

  1. Shadao

    Shadao Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2017
    I never said in that post that Rey was supposed to be the grandchild of Anakin Skywalker. What I provided was that George Lucas was clearly thinking about more than one Skywalker children and that he clearly meant ST to be about them before he left. He himself admits he has no idea what to expect for Episode VII other than a retro movie.

    So the idea that Lucas never intended ST to be about the grandchildren because the Lucasfilm team showed how Lucas's ideas influenced TLJ in public media is a misread from my perspective.
     
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  2. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    I think the question is, why wouldn't he call it, rather than let it go to Rey and then submit to her?

    I don't think it's a misread in the sense that LF clearly wants the public to read it that way. It's a little disingenuous though. I don't think GL can do a lot of speaking for himself here, so it's a very one-sided presentation of things that kind of annoys me. I don't really appreciate anyone speaking for anyone else, especially when they're trying to present a clear picture of what that person wanted. If they are going to be honest, they should also release the things that they changed and disagreed with him on. That would actually be interesting and honest. This stuff just feels so manufactured. I didn't even get the Art of TLJ book like I did for TFA and R1. I miss "making ofs" that told the nitty gritty, the conflict, the real stuff. Show the rejected stuff the way the TFA book did. Show the ideas thrown out that weren't used.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  3. 11-4D

    11-4D Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2015
    You're saying that he should have pulled a lightsaber first? Or that he should have taken it from her?
     
  4. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 23, 2015
    Yes, either one. Not necessarily first, but when he saw her go for it, cut her off and take it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  5. KembaSkywalker

    KembaSkywalker Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2016
    Why though? The way I saw it, Luke had no interest in fighting Rey.
     
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  6. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    He chose to defend against her attack with a stick instead of just force pushing her back and putting her in her place. That indicates something to me.

    The "why" part would be because Rey is the student, she is young and she attacked in a dishonorable way and she needed to be taught a lesson in humility. That's typically the purpose of master/student relationships, for the student to actually learn something.
     
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  7. IncessantRamblings

    IncessantRamblings Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 20, 2016
    Nope, and even his lesson w/ Kylo at the end was 'A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack', a true Jedi master. :)
     
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  8. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 23, 2015
    Luke didn't attack. He defended. Rey attacked, first by hitting him when his back was turned and then by continuing to attack and then by force pulling the lightsaber and raising it against him. Then Luke submitted. He didn't use the force for knowledge or defense. He just let her win learning nothing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  9. IncessantRamblings

    IncessantRamblings Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 20, 2016
    I was replying to @KembaSkywalker 's comment about Luke having no interest in fighting Rey. He didn't want to fight Rey, for a reason, that was the lesson. Ya know like how Yoda fought in AotC & RotS, but didn't in ESB?
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  10. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 23, 2015
    What exactly was the lesson? He submitted to her assault to teach her that he doesn't want to fight? What does she learn from that?

    Are you saying that the lesson was really just that Luke was committed to being a quitter until he learned his lesson later from Yoda? I think that's the lesson to the audience, but there is nothing in that for Rey to learn from.
     
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  11. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 3, 2014
    The dynamic of that scene is that Luke is in the wrong and, crucially, he knows it. It’s literally the first time she sees Luke after Ben told her his version of events.
    Anyone who has ever been in a situation where someone has been justifiably angry with them would understand that the way of defusing that anger is by not being the aggressor just because you can be - not shouting back, not fighting back, just containing the situation. Rey didn’t “win” the fight, and Luke didn’t “lose” because it wasn’t really a fight at all - it was Rey expressing righteous anger that Luke hadnt yet given her the full story, and Luke not making things worse.
    The shot of Luke discreetly cushioning his fall illustrated this perfectly; he was fully in control of the physical aspect of the situation, was never at any risk. If he had tried to get the upper hand on Rey at any point in that fight, it would have cemented in her mind the idea that Kylo’s story was unambiguously the truth, and Luke’s a straight up lie. Backing off was the mature thing to do, and it worked; she worked through her anger, and came to the real issue - what REALLY happened? And he tells her.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  12. KembaSkywalker

    KembaSkywalker Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jun 16, 2016
    Pretty much how I saw it. I don't think Luke has any interest in displaying his pride of being the superior master over Rey 'the student.' Hell, I doubt Luke even saw Rey as his student. I think he pretty much just wanted her to go away, lol. I didn't see this as a serious fight at all. It was Rey taking out her anger on Luke (for somewhat good reason, though way too aggressively) and Luke defending himself until she (hopefully) lost her steam and calmed down.
     
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  13. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 23, 2015
    All of this just reinforces that Rey learned nothing and Rey was in the wrong. Luke defending himself against her assault should not cement anything in her mind about Kylo's story. Rey needed to be taught to sit down and show some respect. I get the scene from the point of view that Luke was on a journey and it was about Luke coming to a realization, but I'm approaching it from the standpoint that Rey is the protagonist. How she handled that was wrong but she never realized that.

    Luke backing off was not the mature thing to do. It taught Rey that the way to get what you want is to assault a teacher from behind and then continue attacking him. Luke backing off was Luke quitting and teaching her nothing. Rey doesn't learn anything by "working through her anger" in carrying assault of her master out until she gets what she wants. That's not what we teach kindergarteners, let alone Jedi in training.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  14. IncessantRamblings

    IncessantRamblings Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 20, 2016
    This;
    P.S. Luke didn't 'submit' to anything. And Luke realizing that 'saving what we love instead of fighting what we hate' is the true Jedi way isn't him being a quitter.
     
  15. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2014
    “All of this just reinforces that Rey learned nothing”

    No, that’s simply not an obvious or apparent thing to take from what I just wrote. I took the trouble to explain exactly why Luke’s actions made sense, and now you’re changing your point completely.
    You’re being incredibly disingenuous by treating this sequence as a “lesson”; at the time it happens, that is off the table - Luke wants Rey off the island (because his lie has been found out) and Rey thinks he tried to murder Kylo Ren on a whim.
    Again, the crucial thing here is Luke is in the wrong here, and knows it. It’s not the time to teach her a lesson in humility, because when you’ve just been caught in a lie, you literally aren’t in a position from which to do that.

    You say Rey needed to be taught some respect? Absolutely not. At that moment, what needed to happen was for Luke to demonstrate that he was deserving of respect. That’s why he understood that her anger was valid, and realised that he owed her an explanation.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  16. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    Yeah, I already answered the first one directly, so, that.

    As for your second part, yes Luke submitted. Rey demanded he tell her what she wanted to know, he didn't want to, she attacked him and raised a lightsaber against him, then he told her what she wanted and what he didn't want to share. He submitted. She got what she wanted.

    Luke didn't save what he loved in that moment. That's a nice platitude but where was Luke's love for Rey anywhere? If he loved her, he should have taught her something valuable, but instead that scene was about Luke's journey and what Luke needed to learn. Luke wasn't fighting Rey. Rey was fighting Luke. She was the one that needed to learn the lesson to use the force for knowledge and defense, not Luke.

    And I took the trouble to respond with my opinion, and my opinion disagreeing with yours is not disingenuous. I just don't share your opinion, and that is coming from a rational, thoughtful and honest place.

    I agree that Luke wants Rey off the island. I see Luke's motivation in terms of Luke's arc. That wasn't what I was questioning. I agree that Luke is wrong and he knows it. I was talking about it from Rey's character arc, as in, what did she get from this scene, what was her development? This is the Rey thread after all.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  17. IncessantRamblings

    IncessantRamblings Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2016
    Yes EXACTLY like what he does with Kylo! There's a theme here....

    Like a good girl should!! [face_laugh]
    Wait a second, did not Luke literally bring a hut down on her head not two seconds before??

    And I was posting before you replied, so, that.

    She got what she wanted? Luke went back with her to help the Resistance??

    Who's talking about Luke's love for Rey?? Why would he 'love' a stranger??
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  18. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 3, 2014
    I’m sorry, but you’re broadening this out to be a wider criticism of the whole film. In the scene in question, Rey and Luke’s actions are both valid and reasonable from their perspectives.
     
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  19. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    [
    Or, like a Jedi? Like an adult? Like a hero?

    What does that have to do with anything? Luke didn't assault her to get anything from her. He reacted in anger and told Rey to go away. Are you trying to argue that Rey was defending herself? [face_laugh]

    Huh? I'm literally talking about Rey and what she got in this moment. I haven't said anything about the whole film. Why don't you just respond specifically to what I say? I'll demonstrate how that works by responding directly to your point. I haven't said anything about whether their actions are valid or reasonable because that isn't what I'm talking about, although obviously I disagree. From the standpoint of Rey's arc, what was her development here?
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  20. KembaSkywalker

    KembaSkywalker Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2016
    @AhsokaSolo

    I think you're coming at this with the understanding that Luke had the intent of teaching Rey these lessons, when really he had no interest in doing so. I don't think there's any deep reasoning as to why the two acted the way they did. She was pissed off, he was reacting to her. He wanted her to leave and, more importantly, leave him alone.

    Obviously, because he is a Jedi master, he doesn't come at Rey with full force with the intent to kill her or harm her - which is just an lesson in and of itself (which happens to go along with some of the themes of the film.) He is passive and defensive. But not, particularly, because he wants to 'teach' Rey anything. At least IMO.
     
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  21. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    No I'm not. I have already said multiple times that I agree that Luke wasn't trying to teach anything and he didn't care to teach Rey anything. From a story perspective, though, what did Rey get out of this? She learned nothing good. She was rewarded for doing the wrong thing.

    Luke is fully capable of defeating Rey without killing her or harming her. That seems obvious to me.
     
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  22. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 3, 2014
    The scene isn’t about “Rey’s development”. You’re treating the scene as if it’s a training scene.

    The scene is about the aftermath of the revelation of Kylo Ren’s POV; Rey feeling betrayed, Luke having his darkest secret outed. In the scene where Kylo Ren tells Rey about it, he draws a direct comparison to Luke’s fear of Ben’s power with Rey’s power; the implication being Luke is a danger to her just because of her power.
    At that stage, “training” is off the table, they’re waaaaay beyond that. Rey is angry with Luke, and confronts him. He refuses to talk about it (unreasonably) and Rey lashes out. Luke realises Rey isn’t going anywhere, the game is up, and he has to face up to what happened. And so he tells her.
    None of that is unreasonable from a character perspective, unless you’re teeth gnashing about Luke’s overall character.

    You need to explain why exactly you think the scene had to mean anything for Rey’s “development”
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  23. KembaSkywalker

    KembaSkywalker Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2016
    The truth about what happened with Ben? That was the reason, story-wise. Why does Rey have to be taught some important lesson here? I'm guessing the issue is that she cheap shot attacked Jedi Master Legend Luke Skywalker that you feel she should be punished for doing so? I'm not sure.

    @CEB
    Exactly. This isn't some training scene. This is a dramatic point in our story where important revelations are happening, and our protagonist is realizing that her 'legendary hero' may not be the perfect person that she's always envisioned him as.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  24. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2016


    I believed in ReyRandom since 2016 but I don't agree the hype about her family is 100% fans's fault. They kept a mystery about Snoke, about Rey's parents etc. When I wached TFA in the theater, I heard a guy talking to his friends about Snoke being Plagueis and some of my friends thought Rey was Luke or Leia's kid
     
  25. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 23, 2015
    I'm treating the scene as if Rey is the protagonist, but I definitely understand that that is where my error is.

    I'm not teeth gnashing about Luke's character. That is you speaking for me, and I'll kindly request that you stop. I can speak for myself. I'm talking about Rey. I have said many times that I understand Luke's perspective in this scene.

    I understand that official training is off the table, but Rey is still theoretically our young inexperienced protagonist and she should be learning lessons on her journey and growing. Here, yes per the plot she is angry with Luke and then she lashes out. I follow the story just fine. The point is, her behavior was wrong and arrogant but she never needed to realize that. Going forward, Rey has the knowledge that attacking a superior fighter when his back is turned is the correct course of action.

    As I have said, I understand the story reason. I am talking about Rey's arc in the Rey thread. Rey should be taught a lesson here because that's typically the point of a hero's journey - to make mistakes and then to learn from them. Otherwise the whole thing is pointless.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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