ST Daisy Ridley (Rey) in the ST

Not at all. I've stated many times over that I like the film. I've seen it 15 times in the theater. I'm going again this afternoon BTW.

I like the two movies that are supposed to be the sequel trilogy. What it really is not that. It's a Reset Sequel trilogy (that really isn't much of a trilogy more 2 largely disconnected movies that share elements). Entertaining? Yes. Emotion and themes? Yes. Good character and storytelling? No. An actual continuation of what Lucas did? No. They are so disconnected from EPS I-VI on so many levels while at the same time leaning on them.

Which effect her differently in each movie and within each movie differently again dependent on the plot situation needed and the emotional display necessary to aid that.

Which is the inherent problem. She is FULLY realized with nothing much of note to get to said realization. She has no past or future. She just happens as is needed and time and again when presented with situations to actualize this realization they almost constantly go away from it. The very little they do is then contradicted between the two movies. TLJ Rey's wanting parents that are somebodies in a grand story for her to be somebody isn't in TFA.

 

As if Finn's actions and interaction with Rey in TFA were comparable to Kylo's.

 

The canon Rey survival guide stated that Rey believed this:

She repressed who they were as a child and lived in this fantasy she invented as a coping mechanism to deal with her abandonment and her Force awakening that had been in there but reached the next level recently. She jokes that she knows all about being “classified” and “top secret” but behind every joke is a little bit of truth and in Rey’s case it’s because she’s invented this notion that the situation that lead to her is some big mistake. This may have started as a child but only as an adult can she look back and realize she’s holding on to an aspect of the fantasy instead of fully embracing the truth. Maz helped her realize they weren’t coming back but Rey wasn’t ready to come to terms with why that was. In TLJ she accepts more including why she was left, the uncomfortable thoughts of what coming from people like that may say about her own potential to her, and that they aren’t coming back because they are dead.

In a way her suppression/blocking out and later coming to terms with the truth and realizing the truth is reminiscent of Leia “somehow always knowing” Luke and her had a strange bond but only truly bringing that concept out of the back of her subconscious to her conscious mind to figure out what that could be through aging. She also seemingly invented some memories of being with there with Padme long enough have memories at all. In both cases it’s just people talking themelves into whatever helps them make sense of their pasts. These are coping mechanisms and realizations that only come clear through an epiphany and looking back at the evidence that was always there in the subconscious. We have talked about this aspect in other threads but people do this all the time.

 

Well, with all fairness to him, you need a pretty high IQ in order to get The Last Jedi.

 

They weren't being compared... what I was comparing was Rey's behavior/character in the sense of her choices regarding each character. @Lost_Hope was replying to that post.

 

They definitely didn’t make it easy on general audiences. That’s for sure. There’s a lot to think about if one is unfamiliar with some of the psychological aspects they’re exploring.

 

Which is the point made so often. It's not in the movies.

It's nice the Lucasfilm Story Group does that but JJ and RJ simply aren't interested in that.

Which actually as you say that points out yet another problem in TLJ as the "always" knowing was done in relation to the Force but makes the parents "revelation" even weaker because now is she supposed to know already and is simply embarrassed by Ren? So when was she in denial about her parents? All along or only after she realized she has these Force powers?

The more the layers are peeled back the more confused everything is because when you have something that is whatever it needs to be from scene to scene it'll never connect up.

We shouldn't have to write the character for the people who made the movie nor should the Story Group. We need to have the character and the story basics to work with as Anakin and Luke. Sure expand that out in other places but once we know the characters then what they would do becomes very easy to build on.

Except are they really aren't doing that?

Because if they are then they are not getting it across (because TFA prefers to distract with mystery) and TLJ with an issue that doesn't exist in TFA.

We are to believe that someone like Rey who instantly engages with people (and they back to her) has spent her entire life being solitary and morose?

The plot and the personality are totally at odds.

 

While I appreciate some of your points @Ender_and_Bean I think people who view the story or future story of the ST solely or rigidly based off of psychology or tropes, etc. to be missing the point a little... sure these things influence characterization however that doesn't mean it will all follow it exactly.

 

FYI "Reylo shipping nonsense" is Kasdan's creation. He wanted Solo son to be already a villian in EP VII and he wanted Force connection with sharing memories and skills between them in Interrogation Scene - "with something a little bit more that you would expect going on." There is no point to create something like this if in the future it doesn't play out like both sides "softening towards each other."

There is nothing surprising that impulsive and sympathetic person decided to bring Ben Solo back if she knows that his conflict is strong and real and she gets a vision about it. After she understood that Luke is not a hero and not an authoritative figure above her, she made a next mistake on her Journey and decided to be a hero herself, but exactly like Luke, instead of find her own way to fix situation. Exactly like Kylo wanted to be Vader instead of finding himself.

That's why then the Throne Scene and Proposal Scene broke all patterns for the Force history in SW and Skywalkers history.

As a part of coming-of-age story, this is the point where both Rey and Kylo discovered "careful what you wish for" - if you play someone else role, you won't get what make you happy.

Conversation was about compassion and empathy as parts of Rey's personality, not the court hearing Finn's Sins vs Kylo's Sins. We all know that Kylo is murderer.

 

Then the comparison doesn't work. This notion that she forgave Finn for a minor thing after bonding with him, means that she's going to be empathetic towards a mass murderer who butchers people across the galaxy and murderer his own father right in front of her, is comparing apples to oranges.

I just don't buy her being sympathetic towards Kylo, nor her believing his BS, I just don't. Not mere days after TFA.

Ender_and_Bean. Yeah it's hard on people, bad/sloppy writing tends to do that.

 

She doesn't need to "believe" him. She was in his mind and she shares Force connection with him. She knows that there is a conflict in him.

In stories like this, protagonist always has high moral ground because he\she is capable of the Real Forgiveness - because hero can really forgive only unpardonable thing, when others will judge.

So, we needed to see Rey forgive another mass murderer before to believe that she is empathetic enough? It's okay if you personally didn't believe it in the cinema, but it's kind of strange to treat a space fairy tale as a math test or a court room.

Can't remember Luke being that empathetic before to forgive father-stranger, a mass murderer for 20+ years, who cut his arm off. Rey and Kylo had much more stronger personal connection because they had unique Force Bond; Luke just had that rather childish thing for his father (who was more idea that father) and weaker Force connection with him.

 

If she understood Luke is not a hero, she can`t then decide to be a hero like him. Maybe you meant she still thinks he used to be a hero at some point and she was trying to emulate his heroic act in the past. But even so, she would see what disgrace came after so emulating anything from him doesn`t make much sense to me.

Then again, they had nothing really to offer each other so either one saying yes to the other was a moot point. "Come to the light side with me" - and, what would be there for him, Rey? After what he did, a whole lot of nothing. He has done too much to be pardoned and forgiven. He`d be rightfully executed or imprisoned for life. At the very least exiled. Unlike Vader, he is still a young man, he still has some expectations in life. And even with Vader, they got around something that would have been very complicated by following a redemptive action with death.

Equally, Kylo had nothing to offer to Rey either. "Rule with me", yeah, like she ever expressed any interest in power like that.

They might have enjoyed their little force skyping time and companionship but it was more than clear that this in itself was not enough of a hook for either of them. Neither would have changed their perspective on that angle alone.

I disagree. Blood bonds are stronger to me than the few skype sessions that led to something akin to teenage infatuation. I mean, the characters had decent chemistry but it never meant anything to me in terms of a deep emotional connection.

 

In order for this comparison to work, you'd have to say that Anakin and Ben's actions were absolutely the same which isn't true.

 

I meant it more that if people didn’t know some of the common issues related to abandonent, and some of the common pschological tactics that Ben Solo utilizes, and the concept of co-dependency is a real phenomenon then they are more likely to only think about the Rey and Ben Solo connection from a very narrow perspective of, “She’s good. He’s evil.” There’s no way she’d be drawn to him.

The fact is there’s actual psychological research backing up some of the choices Rey makes, and why some of the things Ben Solo does work on people.

Throw the Force aspects (mind sharing and visions of a future where Snoke is defeated) and the possibility of physical attraction on top of that and very little suspension of disbelief is required at all.

Somewhat related to what we have been discussing the Nerdist’s Rosie Knight has some interesting thoughts on the patterns of manipulation that can repeat in people.

https://nerdist.com/the-last-jedi-star-wars-toxic-relationship/

 

This is about hero "empathetic enough" to forgive a mass murderer. Rey knows Kylo better that Luke knew Vader. After she got a vision about him, she decided to give him a chance. She saw that he "will turn." It's not only about her "compassion," she thought that this will end conflict. She didn't go to him only because she personally wanted him to turn. She wanted him to be on their side.

Yes, I meant that she was trying to emulate his heroic act, thank you. She talked about it during second lesson. I think that on that stage - when she left an island - she was 50\50 learning that lesson. She doesn't believe anymore that he will return as a hero, but she can't let go her fascination with the "legend."

Well, for me blood bonds are irrelevant. But that's not a point. Rey has more reasons to believe that Ben can turn because she was in his head and she can personally understand some of his motivations. Vader is more stranger to Luke.

 

I really believe the intent and why this was setup as her setback is because it will end up closer to what you and I both hope it might be.

Ben has to change a lot and make sacrifices related to his ego for her and others for him to have any hope of anything closer than what he enjoyed in TLJ. If that warmed his heart then he will need to change a lot because as close as she came... she still had her own hopes and dreams and didn’t become codependent on him when he tried to use her abandonment issues to prop himself and his offer up. She woke up. Both Luke and Rey faced their issues in the past. Ben Solo continues to want to burn his down. Light side (harder but leads to enlightenment). Dark side easier.

 

This. It’s just so ridiculous. The movie acts like Kylo is a troubled teen ditching school and back talking his parents, not like a patricidal freak actually butchering Rey’s friends at the exact same time she’s Skyping with him, two days after she watched him gut her father figure. Rey relating to him in this context is not something I can take remotely seriously, other than in a psychologically warped Stockholm Syndrome way, which is definitely not the story I was hoping for for our new girl Jedi hero.

 

So it's okay to believe that a mass murderer will turn and forgive a mass murderer just because you share blood? Kind of wow.

At least Rey saw that Ren will turn.

I guess I'm kind of like Leia on this matter.

But the point was:

 

The “father figure” she knew for a day who he immediately tries to draw a parallel with to her own parents that she clearly has issues with? Rey knows all of these people only for a day and through the mind probes and mind bridges knows Ben Solo more than any of us and any of them them now.

I don’t know how many times we have to revisit the importance of mind control in this story and the saga as a whole. This thread keeps going around in circles for petty likes around the dismissive “Force Skype” so I’ll say again what I said probably 10 pages back and then 10 pages back before that when this came up. Issues related to the Force and visions and mind control and mind reading and now mind bridges have lead to many of the biggest story turns in Star Wars history and TLJ continues that and takes it to another level.

These 2 literally shared minds and beyond that believed that somehow fate had brought them together in a way. I said it before but the medium is the message. The words they’re experiencing matter and go back to the psychological issues each face (including her ability to move from relationship to relationship quickly, which is another common psychological issue related to abandonment issues) but the mind bridge which neither understands happening at all matters even more in the story and many of you continue to downplay its significance and act like they’re just talking on a phone. The fact it’s happening at all along with the vision of the future deceives both (and for a time the audience) into thinking all sorts of thoughts for why they are connected beyond whatever attraction for each other they already had. They don’t know it’s Snoke who plotted it all and it impacts both of them because once you start feeling something for anyone for any reason at all it’s there and it takes time to work through that.

In Rey’s case, Ben Solo plants the seed in her mind that he would have been who she thinks he still can be if only Luke hadn’t done what he did. He tells her a story of how Luke came to kill him in his sleep because he was jealous of his power just after Luke has, himself, likened her raw power to Ben Solo’s. Moments later he’s waking her in her sleep to tell her he will train her at dawn. And from there he keeps chipping away at Luke in her mind.

 

No, I was talking about "blood bonds" precisely when it comes to "believe that someone can turn."

ST shows that Rey has a few rational reasons to believe that Kylo will turn: strong Force connection, sharing fears and memories and a vision. OT shows that Luke has one rational reason to believe that Vader will turn: sensing conflict in him. And that the main reason for him is rather unhealthy, much more "codependency" that Rey\Kylo stuff. Not only Vader wasn't a Father of Year, Vader was an abusive father when he already knew that Luke is his son.

Rey wasn't that sure about Kylo before 1. she saw a vision 2. she got a thruth from Luke
And her reasons for going to Kylo weren't that personal like in Luke's case.

It's not about your or mine moral character. It's about when the word "codependency" used, Luke's case was far worse.

Completely agree and I think we should stop repeat the same things about force connection because it's pointless lol. People really treat shared minds like the film showed it like small talk. Which it didn't.

Funny that the Force stuff between Rey and Kylo was praised by GA and a lot of critics caught what it exactly means for the plot, without being SW fan.

 

A strong Force connection has nothing to do with rationality. They hardly share anything in common either. Also, posing Luke's actions as codependent is hilarious given the fact that you can see that in ROTJ, he's going with every intention of confront him and the Emperor. He is confident in his own values whereas Rey hardly has any to speak of. Any that are good, at least.

Rey also pretty much alienates Luke at every possible opportunity so this only makes your claims more baseless.

Oh, I'm sure.

The idea that two entirely different individuals with clear differences in morality can somehow find kinship in their ability to use a power and nothing else whatsoever is a really lazy way to approach writing in this franchise.