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TFA TLJ Daisy Ridley (Rey) in the ST

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by Darth_Voider, Dec 17, 2015.

  1. La Calavera

    La Calavera Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2015
    "You monster"!
    "Murderous snake!"
    - Rey in TLJ

    Yeah, she hated him. Yes, she held grudges.
    Yes, she did a 180 in one day.
     
  2. Akane

    Akane Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2018
    I also don't think that her main motivation was to save Ben, but to use him to save the resistance/end the war. This for me is the big difference between what Luke did in ROTJ and what Rey did in TLJ, Luke really wanted to save Vader because he was his father, Rey wanted to save Ben not because they were brothers, cousins or because she was in love with him, it's because if she saved him then the resistance would have had everything in its favor to win the war, Luke's act was pure love, Rey's act had a double intention.
     
  3. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    Rey thinks Kylo is ALL evil when she says these things. It's after she realizes he isn't that she begins to change her tune. She is adapting to more information as it comes to her rather than holding a fixed grudge in spite of new information that would challenge it. This is because her character is open-minded.

    @Akane - Agree. Had Luke gone back with her, she wouldn't have even went to Kylo. That was in the movie.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  4. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    One thing we are shown is her first image of Kylo Ren, when he suddenly spears someone in the back who was standing over Rey and seemingly about to kill her. Or kill whoever's perspective she was seeing in the vision. After that, his body language regarding the helpless person he's just saved (Rey, within the vision) is ambiguous.

    So there's mixed messages in the vision that we are exposed to.
     
  5. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015

    wait...how is he not all evil and when did she come to this conclusion?...............did she realize this after a conversation?
     
  6. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    I agree that the movie failed to show that transition well and I've said numerous times that I don't think it shows Rey's POV well enough. But you can suss out what the movie was trying to do. What it was trying to do IS the explanation. It's just for some reason we are going 'round and 'round, constantly. There isn't a magical explanation outside of what the movie was trying to show.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  7. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015

    She was so confused by the ambiguous body language and mixed messages in the vision that when she first meets him in reality, she pulls a blaster and starts shooting. I wonder why she was so afraid of him even though she got mixed messages in her vision. His body language was so ambiguous that she fell on her butt the second time he appeared in the vision.

    @oncafar You realize how problematic it is when the primary motivation for the main character in the film is not developed or illustrated properly? Judging by rey's inexplicable belief that she should fedex herself to the empire in order to "save" kylo ren, of course we can guess what the film was trying to do. Thats the problem though, we have to guess. We have to guess and speculate in order to make sense of the main character's actions.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  8. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    Pretty sure one official source described the speared individual as a “hero” ie “good guy.”
     
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  9. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Partly. Partly due to the contrast between their force connection meetings. But also because, as she claims, she foresees it's his destiny to turn against Snoke, and back to the good side.

    No conversation took place between with Vader that convinced him before Luke decided he needed to save Darth Vader. Luke cited the fact that Vader didn't kill him when he had the reason and the opportunity to on Cloud City and that he wasn't going to. But he didn't see his father destroying the Emperor. He just asks him to leave and come with Luke. Which he believes he will until Vader, to his surprise, sends him off to meet his new master.

    Ben does not threaten Rey with an early appointment with her destiny if she doesn't submit to his and her new master's will, as far as I can recall.

    Mixed messages usually provoke confused , contradictory reactions. If she is intuitively letting go of her conscious self, and reality as she consciously perceives it including the episodes where she and Kylo were trying to kill each other, and letting her instincts and the force guide her, as Obi-Wan described. And receiving more information, like the more magnanimous Ben that she's confronted with in their force conferences together. Then that is informing her judgement and softening attitude towards the monster she was clashing with on Takodona and SKB.

    Cool. Did the official source enlighten Rey with this knowledge too? I wonder. ;)
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  10. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    Well, Rey saw a vision that made her think Kylo will turn to the light.

    And visions are seldom all they seem.

    I’m sure there’s a reason why we weren’t made privy to the specifics.
     
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  11. Lost_Hope

    Lost_Hope Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2018
    Yeah, and that's why she failed. When Luke didn't.
     
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  12. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Right on. Her vision didn't play out the way she expected it to. Until it's declared one way or the other we won't know if her reaction being wrong will be a) chalk it up and be more diligent in how she weighs up sense and sensibility. b) just maintain faith in her vision, assuming the vision persists.

    I like when movies suspend the certainty of a character's rightness or wrongness. No matter what degree their motives might be obscure or easily relatable. It's usually the execution and the outcome that defines the success of storytelling like that. Of all films, of course.
     
  13. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    I don't think we have to *guess*. TLJ gives enough to put together what is happening, but one must use some analysis to reach it. I agree this is a failing of the movie unless IX manages to convey why that was necessary. I agree with many about failings of the movie to convey what is going on. I don't agree however that you can't figure out a lot of this from what the movie provided.

    The transition of when Rey realizes that Ben is still in there is something that the movie doesn't really show at all IMO. Some people were able to pick this up from Kylo's and Rey's expressions when she tells him again he's a monster and he says, "Yes I am." But it's still amazingly unclear.

    Rey's inner struggle is very mysterious in the movie when it shouldn't be, and also one of the most significant scenes between her and Luke was cut entirely when it was kind of essential for seeing Rey's feelings about Luke.

    I personally suspect that RJ had this all really clear in his head and I can see the beauty in it, but then under expressed it in the film and over-trimmed. And I also think that the space chase and Canto Bight cost this stuff a lot. The movie was running too long. I think RJ needed an editor to work with him during the entire process--not just a screen editor but a story editor. Editors tend to be good at balancing all these things to make sure stuff is being communicated well enough.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  14. Oissan

    Oissan Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    I think both actually saw what was happening, they just came to different conclusions.

    Rey probably saw Ben fight together with her against Snoke's guards, with him either killing Snoke or Snoke already being dead. And from that she took that he would turn to the lightside, because why else would he fight the guards of his own master?
    Ben probably saw the same thing, and concluded that Rey must have accepted his offer, because why else would she fight alongside him?

    Rey was the optimist, who never even considered that this could turn out differently. Ben was convinced of himself and never thought that he could turn back the the light or that Rey could only be temporarily aligned with him. From their point of views, they concluded what was most logical to them, while rejecting all other possibilities.
     
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  15. Akane

    Akane Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2018
    There is a lot of evidence that points to both seeing different things in their vision. Rey saw Ben's future while Ben saw Rey's past. He thought that by telling the truth about her parents, Rey would make the decision to turn to the dark side because of the pain of being abandoned for no apparent reason. Kylo's mistake was to think that Rey was like him and therefore she was going to react to the pain as he would.
     
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  16. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2017
    Your analogy about religious figures and paintings was ridiculous and does nothing to contextualize my original post except to possibly reveal that you believe TLJ holds some sacred infallibility, that’s why it’s facetious.

    It seems that you don’t understand what retroactive continuity actually is and why it’s not at all what I was advocating. I’ll explain it as simply as possible. If I had argued that Ep IX should have scenes that directly contradict scenes in TLJ, then that would be a retcon. If I had argued that Ach-to should not be a remote location in TLJ, then that too would be a retcon. If I had argued that TLJ was poorly written because Rey spent too much time on Ach-to and did not get enough scenes with multiple characters (which is what I did) then that is merely a criticism of the film as it exists.

    Lol, no the worst kind of writing you could possibly come up with is starting a SW film with a “yo momma” joke, but that’s another topic. Rey leaves Ach-to at about the 1hr20min mark of TLJ. It is a 2hr20min film. You mentioned you don’t like arithmetic so I’ll do a basic calculation for you. There was a full hour where Rey is not on Ach-to during which she could have been given any number of scenes with multiple characters. This is not a “statistical motive” whatever that means, it is a factual observation. If Rey had been given more scenes with more characters it would have given her more development. That is an opinion, that is my opinion.

    In ESB, Luke has scenes with Leia on Hoth and then at the end on the medical frigate which bookend his time away from his friends. He has a mini adventure with Han. He has scenes with the other rebel pilots. All these scenes work to contextualize his growth as a character outside his Jedi training, they are not insignificant. Rey does not get these kinds of scenes in TLJ, but she could have, and the film would have been better for it.
     
  17. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    it was one of those times when the villain tried to convince the hero they're the same. Though arguably it's both trying to convince the other they're the same.
     
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  18. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    A SUMMARY OF THE MIND BRIDGE INTERACTIONS SO WE CAN BETTER ANALYZE AND SEE THE PROGRESSION:

    First mind bridge interaction: She shoots him. He tries a Jedi mind trick on her. They try to figure out what’s bringing them together. Rey then refuses to tell Luke what really happened. Just as she didn’t tell Finn about her powers in TFA. She tells Luke they need him to stop Kylo Ren.

    Second mind bridge interaction: They continue to wonder what they’re experiencing. She calls him a murderous snake and a monster and tells him he’s lost and will get what’s coming for him because she found Skywalker. He then asks her if Luke told her what happened the night of the Temple. She then says she knows all she needs to know about him. He questions that Luke definitely didn’t telll her what happened at the Temple. He tells her she has the same look in her eye as in the forest. Luke then mentions Ben when talking about the failure of the Jedi and she presses him for what happened. Luke gives a condensed summary and leaves out key details.

    Third mind bridge interaction: She tells him she doesn’t want to do this or talk to him. He says the same. She tells him to put clothes on and asks him why he killed his father who gave a damn about him. He tells her she should understand more than anyone because her parents threw her away like garbage. He tells her her parental issues are her biggest weakness and that she has to kill them to become who she was meant to be. He tells her his side of the Temple night and tells her Luke fears powerful students. She has already experienced Luke loom over her in her sleep when he told her he’d train her and she’s also seen Luke say that her raw power reminds him of Ben Solo’s and scares him. So, at this point Ben Solo has stuck the wedge in between her and Luke based on things that Luke has already done, including liken her to Ben Solo. This combined with the fact she’s now sharing a connection to him and the first story from Ben’s perspective of being attacked in the night before he’d made his choice gets her thinking maybe she might be attacked and maybe Ben Solo only became this way because guardians wanted to get rid of him too. Like her parents did her.

    Rey then descends into the Dark Side cave looking for answers. She ends up feeling more lonely than she ever has and more confused than ever about her past and her potential. This leads into...

    Fourth Mind bridge interaction:
    Rey is recounting her Dark Side cave moment to Ben Solo who is listening intently. When she tells him she’s never felt more alone he tells her she isn’t alone and she looks up. She then tells him neither is he. He says her name. She tells him it isn’t too late. He lets her believe it and removes his glove. They get closer and touch skin on skin. It’s a sensation neither has experienced before. An entirely new bond between them. She sees the future. She’s had visions before that proved right. This is the strongest of all. It’s pure and clear. If she goes Ben Solo will turn. Presumably she sees when Snoke is dead and she is in the room and the guards are dead snd takes that to mean he’s turned. He sees her past and thinks he can utilize it to bring her to the Dark Side. At this point they both think they are in control and have the other where they want them and that if they execute their plan they will each get the happy ending they desire.

    I’m summarizing this because it helps to see where she grew tired of just yelling at him and started listening to the possibility that Luke wasn’t who she’d hoped he’d be and that the “one who might come back” and take the saber and save the day and deliver the ultimate happy ending where Han’s final wish came true, Leia gets her son back and Luke and Ben get a second chance following the victory that will come when Ben Solo returns.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  19. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    Maz wasn’t talking about Ben Solo. She was talking about Luke. PH confirmed it directly.

    Maz also wasn’t saying “coming back” in a redemption sense. She was saying that someone [Luke] could still come back in the same way “whomever” Rey was waiting for on Jakku wouldn’t. So in the “spatial” sense, if you will. That’s what she meant, grammatically.
     
  20. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    @Ender_and_Bean - I disagree they have a plan together. Rey sees the future, and she forms a plan. But Kylo saw Rey's past. I remember having the impression that Kylo didn't expect Rey to show up on the Supremacy.

    Although I'm using the novelization for this... and it is true that the movie makes it even less clear. Kylo says he saw something too-Rey's parents. He doesn't specify as he does in the novelization that he saw her past. I figured this was more annoying trimming in the dialogue, but it's possible RJ changed his mind about what Kylo saw. Still he might have thought it was obvious that Kylo saw Rey's past because that's what he's talking about: "Rey, I saw your parents."
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  21. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Of course that’s what Maz meant. And she ends up right “from a certain point of view” because Luke does eventually.

    My point is that what Maz said is irrelevant to how Rey may be interpreting that when the initial Skywalker she was after tosses the saber that the other Skywalker wanted and she’s started to warm to the idea of Ben Solo turning.

    It’s perfectly conceivable that Rey started to think that perhaps the one who might come back is actually the one who wanted the saber the whole time: Ben and that it would be in the redemptive sense. She even extends it one more time to Luke and tells him that Ben Solo could be how they win.

    Edit: @oncafar : I may have worded it weird there if I made it seem like Ben was as sure of what would happen as Rey seemed to be but we have to fill in the blanks and assume that on her journey down she has informed him directly that she is coming. He’s there ready for her. It seems doubtful that would be the case if she hadn’t updated him she was coming.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  22. 11-4D

    11-4D Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2015
    What made Rey think Kylo wasn't fully evil?
     
  23. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    see my response to @Blastaar who asked the same question.

    I don't think there's any evidence of that. My impression from the movie was that he didn't expect her. In the novelization he could feel her presence when she came so he knew she was there. I figured from the movie he probably knew she was there because of the Force too.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  24. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Interesting. Wasn’t aware of that aspect. Cool.
     
  25. Mandalore the Ascendent

    Mandalore the Ascendent Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 6, 2017
    OP

    It really takes effort to get somebody who has a good dozen female characters on TOR to not care for her.

    - Rey was miscast. She is supposed to be this scavenger and had no education. Why does she have a posh accent and sound like an Imperial Officer? It's extremely jarring. She should have put on an American accent like Fin. The moment she opened her mouth in TFA I was put off. She sounds like a spoilt daddy's girl and does nothing for the character.

    - All talk, no show. We are repeatedly told that Rey is the most powerful force user by multiple characters. She does not do anything visually spectacular or impressive enough to warrant this. If you've played Force Unleashed or ToR then everything she does is really kind of dull normal Jedi stuff. Its not like Wonder Woman where there's a visual enjoyment in the character being powerful.

    - JJ tries to make Rey the reluctant hero in TFA. Reluctant heroes are never likeable, especially since the moral conflict is so clear cut and so many other SW heroes step up to the plate. I cannot comprehend why everyone in the Galaxy does not want to fight the First Order. She also never makes a decision to join the Resistence and fight, Kylo makes that decision by abducting her and preventing her returning to Jakku. She just randomly decides to not go back.

    - Rey flips from hating Kylo to wanting to save him despite him having murdered his own father to become more powerful in the previous film. Vader did not murder his own father. Rey wants parents. She would hate man who kills parents. End of story. There is nothing wrong with her wanting to kill him. It is not sympathetic to value one mans feelings over his victims.

    - Rey attacking Luke Skywalker. I don't care if he's a milk drinking, (evil and totally deserved it) nephew killin hermit, he's Luke and you don't get to throw a tantrum and attack him. The man saved the galaxy. You were all for hiding on Jakku in the previous film and now you're suddenly judging him? That's very hypocritical.

    - Reys parents reveal. This spoils the characters mystery.

    - Her costumes are pretty lame. Grey is a very dull colour. Her desert outfit was basically rags and her Last Jedi get up had the same palette. Compare this to Luke who wears bright white and then black or has his Rebel pilot suit. Even Finn has quite a few distinct looks when he's a Stormtroopers and then gets the jacket. Iam not saying Rey has to be like satele and wearing thigh high boots but she's a very bland and plain looking character in a very visual story.

    - Two films for the character to not put a light saber crystal in her staff. You have a signature weapon and you don't use it for most of the series...

    So I have to ask what is likeable about this character?