ST Daisy Ridley (Rey) in the ST

Yeah, I see a lot of opinion in that post, and speculation. Funny, I thought according to RJ speculation beyond what's in the movie is head canon and bad.

And I guess in the end, your inability to point out anything Rey did wrong, means that you, not me, think she is perfect.

 

She moves Luke initially when she recites what he did for his father. That clearly has him shook up and emotional and their decision to cut it after she then says, "The galaxy may need a hero but I need someone to show me my place in this. Ben Solo failed you. I won't" instead of the canon extended scene that follows, which is also a deleted scene but canon nevertheless for occurring off screen, goes further into that idea. But even without it it's her final words to him about what he did before, how the galaxy needs him, and how she needs guidance, and how she won't fail him as Ben Solo did that are the last things we see him before he reconnects to the Force in the film. And in the extended edition it's the same notion just extended further, which is also canon.

If you want to hold to the film exclusively, and avoid the canon extended edition, then I can just as easily present that the film showed Luke stayed in the temple the entire time after Rey's final words and thought about it more because the next time we see him it's him still in the temple walking out to the meditation rock. So, even ignoring the extended scene, presents a scenario where Luke was so moved by what Rey said that he stayed up in the temple after she left for quite some time to think about what she'd said and later decided to connect to the force.

I think it can work either way as a result. In fact, this conversation has been productive for me to view it more from the perspective that on film it looks like Luke has remained in the temple the whole time after Rey says that to him.

 

I'm not obligated to justify my appreciation of the story by defining what she does wrong to your satisfaction in order to prove to you that I don't consider Rey to be perfect.

 

Except there is no connection to Luke reconnecting to his sister to grieve with her and Rey needing help with the force. If Rey caused the change in his heart, RJ could have shown that explicitly by, I don't know, having Luke set up training stuff for Rey. Instead, Luke's reconnection to the force is 100% personal and emotional with his family, after his best scene in the movie with R2 that highlights this personal and familial connection. I just don't feel Rey being significant to his changing point of view from the movie. I feel Luke grieving and depressed and then relenting to connect to his beloved sister. After Luke connects with Leia, he changes his mind about helping the Resistance, which then Rey screws up with her secret dalliance with the enemy. It brought back Luke's feeling of futility on the whole thing.

At the very least, it's open to interpretation because like many things in the movie, it isn't made explicit. The interpretation that Luke and Rey have no significant bond and Rey personally had minimal impact on Luke really is valid. I can see reading into it more if one wants to, but I don't see it. My takeaway from Luke and Rey is that Rey was a hindrance to Luke returning, and they have no bond. They were essentially adversaries, although in the end I think Rey had a sort of begrudging respect for Luke. I'm not sure Luke thinks anything of Rey besides she can become a Jedi and hopefully not fall to the dark side.

Of course, you obviously do not have to answer any question you do not wish to. Agreed. And I remain under the impression that Rey really didn't do anything wrong in this movie in your eyes.

 

I won't disagree with you that it's possible Luke's primary motivation is Leia the entire time and that it just took him more time to process all that's happened. You're 100% correct that what's going on in his mind in the lead-up is his and that we can all see that moment differently and I like that.

My only issue is the lack of involvement it seems you're trying to take away from Rey entirely in the process. I think there's enough there to suggest she was helping the process before she hurt it and that even after she hurt it... forcing Luke to work through his own denial of the night... helped Yoda come in and help him through that.

 

I have repeatedly answered all questions. Just not the satisfaction of the varying criteria you're providing.

 

@Ender_and_Bean ~ I really don't think she was helping the process. She was lying to him almost the entire time. Luke was right to be distrustful of her. The only thing she was really doing that she could get credit for was relentlessly asking him to help, and I don't see why someone like Chewie being that stubborn wouldn't have been more affective given Luke's personal bond with Chewie.

 

I see the beating heart quote is being discussed again... this was something I commented on last summer. The thing about 'beating heart' is that it's a term used to describe the heart of a story, and clearly Rey & Luke's interactions/effects on each other in TLJ were 'the heart of the story'. It was never a parentage hint or red herring. Rian was just using it to explain the core of their relationship... it wasn't intended in a 'warm & fuzzy' way.

 

While otherwise completely sidelined R2 came up with the map needed to find Luke and the emotional connection to get him to reconnect to the Force because of his long-held message to Leia (which is a nice connection to their parents as well). R2 helps Leia find Luke and Luke find Leia. Plus Chewie and the Falcon and Han (in absentia).

What would have happened is that after those connections were made then Luke would likely have connected with Rey except that she had already connected with Ren which simply proved this version of Luke's fears that beings with raw power like Rey and Ren should be feared because they will draw to the Dark side. What Luke doesn't know is that while Ren was simply drawn to the Dark side and that power Rey is drawn to it but it isn't able to grasp her because she's an instrument of the Light.

There's no reason he should know that and since Rey is unlike any other being ever seen with the Force there is no reason why he should. The construct of being able to chose your destiny and training needed to reach those goals is not applicable to her.

 

@Qui-Riv-Brid, you raise a great point. The ST has abandoned the goofy, cartoony approach of the Dark Side making your eyes change color once you reach certain anger levels. It’s no longer “Dark Side mode activated” and thank the Maker for that because that was always a pet peeve of mine in the past, too.

I’m not sure if Lucas just tried to shoehorn it in because of the Emperor once he realized he was going to show Anakin’s slide without a mask on but whatever the reason I think a lot of people are happy it’s seemingly gone. It cheapened the Dark Side slide and made it seem almost like a Buzz Lightyear switch in the back that had just been moved to the wrong position.

Now that the Dark Side is presented more as a subtle slide based around someone listening to an offer from the Dark Side that’s preying on that person’s fear, anger, hate and leading them to selfishness, greed and power which then manifests more into fear of losing power and anger and rage... it is certainly more subtle and perhaps harder to detect and more worthy of discussion and analysis than before.

And because this is all now being represented in less cartoony ways than before it also makes it closer to evil and good on Earth and about how the choices and actions made in the present, and the company you decide to keep and your complicity with their actions, all combine and define you.

Which explains why Luke was again temporarily drawn to the Dark and fought it off and why Ben speaks to the morality and love that still exists within him and the pull to the Light that he currently thinks is weaknesses holding him back.

Going full Dark Side now seems to be the absence of morality combining with the persistent sense of fear, anger and hate from within and the belief that compassion and selflessness are weaknesses.

Meanwhile, Light Side users don’t get their Light Side mode deactivated for giving into the Dark Side for glimpses because that idea always seemed silly too and was never really presented all that strongly in the OT. There’s a very Christian undercurrent to the Light Side and Dark that’s more about the Dark Side freeing themselves of their darkness by ultimately realizing what they did was wrong, taking action to help others for love or compassion or empathy or selflessness, and atoning for what they did.

That the Emperor presented it as though simply getting angry would be enough for Luke to become his forever always seemed underwhelming conceptually in an otherwise stellar dynamic. The consequences experienced by those who’ve made dark side choices, or the consequences of people around them from those choices are often sobering enough. Which is why I hope we have a scene in IX where Rey at least says that Luke was right and she shouldn’t have left him and is frustrated with that choice.

Oddly enough, there never was a Light side equivalent to the cartoony “Dark Side mode activated” that Lucas unwisely introduced. It’s not like there was some middle ground between the two where Luke had been earlier and where most people are that then switched to some blue eyed “Light Side mode achieved” equivalent to represent that the person had achieved maximum selflessness and enlightenment and compassion. So, the whole thing always seemed hamfisted and just propped up by our childhood nostalgia with it. Really glad to see that it’s been seemingly abandoned.

 

There's a perfectly good explanation for that. Some people smoke drugs. No judgement.

 

Maybe we’ll find out about ways of looking at the Force other than a dark/light moral dichotomy (or even spectrum). Maybe sticking to that paradigm was what got the Jedi in trouble.

 

Or how they stuck to it.

 

That too, definitely.

I don’t think we’ll be getting a new Jedi Order.

 

This bolded part is not a fact, it is a subjective interpretation and one that I don’t understand. Let’s break down what actually happens scene by scene. After Luke is shown to reconnect with The Force at 1hr10min30sec, it cuts to Rey’s conversation with Kylo and then her journey to the cave. At that point there hasn’t been any indication that his opinion of Rey or the force has changed, no reason for him to be happy or excited.

We don’t see Luke again until he shouts her name while she having the finger scene with Kylo, and there is nothing “happy” or “cheerful” about the tone of his voice. The shots leading up to it deliberately create a sense of foreboding with the rain, darkness and ominous musical score. The expression on his face is obfuscated by the storm, so we can’t see if he’s smiling or not. Imo, the most reasonable interpretation is that Luke is able to sense what they are doing through the force and is running to stop it from happening. He’s shouting her name with alarm and running with urgency.

Furthermore, if your interpretation is to be believed and reconnecting to the force completely changed his attitude and perspective, then why did he wait so long to go find Rey and make up with her? Actually, I think the primary reason RJ “reconnected” Luke to the force when he did, was so that Luke would have the mechanical ability participate in the finger scene. His attitudes doesn’t change until after the Yoda scene.

 

With all due respect, but it seems to me that everything that we talk about regarding TLJ boils down to that point.

 

I agree. The mood and tone of this scene is foreboding. Luke is not running there happy and joyful. That is simply not in the movie. Is it in a deleted scene? Even if it`s in the novel, that is not a scene in the movie. The ROTS novel is a great extension of the movie but the movie is still the movie. It lives and dies on its own.

 

Fair points. “Excitedly” would have been more accurate than “happily.”

The canon extended edition stated that Luke realizes Rey was right and that the Jedi can help and was willing to go back. That’s why he’s “excitedly” yelling her name from far away and hoping to talk to her.

The music is somber to set the mood for the heart break of seeing that she did let him down in the end. The heart of the movie has its heart attack right then and there leading to dramatic consequences.

 

Good. What was that?

Being "goofy and cartoony" in that sense serial sense is an essential part of Star Wars space opera dramatic roots. Besides that it's also visual representation of actual choices being made.

Not sure what it has to do with what I was talking about though.

Well actually that is what the ST has done. Ren is Dark side activated and Rey is Light side activated (literally!)

Sorry you lost me as the above would be talking about Anakin in the PT and particularly ROTS. This sort of thing is exactly what the ST has abandoned in favor of whatever exactly it is that they are trying to do that changes from movie to movie.

Then of course Luke's journey in the OT. Unfortunately we get nothing like this in the ST.

 

Why is not getting Luke's journey or something like it, as you say there isn't, in the ST a misfortune? What were we supposed to be getting?

Was it misfortune we never got Anakin's journey in OT?

 

Qui - you could easily make the same complaint about not getting the Anakin and Obi-Wan friendship we imagined in the PT - why waste a film on 9 year old Anakin?! - or how the clone wars were largely skipped.

But no doubt you have a very good reason why George was exactly right to tell the story he did. Where I would agree with you and where I feel you refuse to cut RJ (or JJ, let's face it it's anyone that's not George) any slack at all is that, never mind my or anyone else's head canon or desire to see "x" story happen, the storyteller wanted to tell a different angle, and that different angle is just as valid as the alternatives any of us might have preferred.

As we all know, we all like versions of SW that others amongst us don't rate so highly, so with each story the storytellers (whoever they are) are pleasing some of us. How do you know - as a storyteller - which is the right way to go. George never (or rarely) took the most obvious path, and was more than prepared to follow his own instincts vs what the safer audience bet was.

Seems to me like RJ especially is cut from the same cloth.

 

Well, trust goes both ways. Rey lied about her connection with Kylo, but had Luke been more open and accepting, I think she would've gone to him with the truth about it rather than get caught later. As it was, she kept getting rejected and ignored by him and possibly thought Luke would shut down on her again if she told him about her Force sessions with his nephew.

 

She was about to receive her first lesson (partly why she was sent there in the first place). You can understand her reluctance to halt proceedings, "Before we do that, I should tell you. Kylo Ren, your nephew, appeared in my hut. I immediately fired my blaster at him and tried to kill him, but it was just an illusion. He seemed to realise you were here with me but he couldn't see where I was. Nor could I see where he was. Now. Can we begin?"

 

Exactly right. TLJ shows what can happen when trust is not functioning properly between people who should trust each other more.

Had she told Luke about Kylo, there's every chance he would have booted her off the island there and then. Sure, he may not, but he was being a bit of a dick and I can see why Rey kept that a secret. To me, these kind of flawed decisions are very human, and part of what makes the film work well.

re Luke calling out to Rey - I don't think he's clearly happy at all. We know from the novel that he had decided to come back. I thought he was worried for Rey having sensed the dark side on the island now that he's reconnected to the Force.

I'm not sure which interpretation is correct matters that much TBH. What matters is that we know that Luke has opened himself back up to the Force and is thawing towards Rey. It's not unreasonable to assume that had Kylo not shown up, Luke would have thawed further and was more open to helping/ returning after bringing his sister around and making contact with her.

So the key point there is Luke is thawing. Whether he's calling to Rey because he's concerned or because he's ready to leave with her, is less key IMO. Both suggest a change in his attitude on the heels of reconnecting with the force. Then Kylo is there and it confronts Luke with all his worst fears - Rey is going to go the way Kylo did! So Luke retreats once more.

 

Spoiler