Dark Confessions of Jedi Master Windu

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Master_Shaitan, Apr 14, 2005.

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  1. PrinceEspaaValorum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2005
    star 4
    That Mace is dark is pure BS and as tiresome by now as the Sids/Palps donor/clone relationship; Sids or Plagueis' being a 1000 years old or their knowing Yoda from way back; or Yoda's being a Sith at one time; or Yoda and either Sids or Plagueis' having a common Jedi or Sith master. Your post is rambling and self-indulgent. Moreover, it proves nothing. If Denzel Washington played Mace, we wouldn't be having this thread.

    Furthermore, Qui-Gon's "Love is the key to eternal life message to Yoda" does not mean that the Jedi have been wrong all these years for having lightsabers and for even having to kill. Yet, there is an assumption on these boards that pacificism is good, fighting is bad, Jedi are corrupted for killing just like the Sith do, and that the Jedi can beat the Sith only with love. Anakin does in fact beat Sids with love--love for Luke, not for Sids, whom he kills. So, Jedi can kill and still love and not be corrupted.

    However, killing is not the preferred method if it can be avoided. Nevertheless, this does not mean that Mace killed Jango in cold blood. Mace and Jango were in a battle on opposing sides. Jango was killing Jedi. He was trying to kill Mace. Mace was acting in self-defense. And in the samurai state of mind of mushin (Japanese for "no-mind"; Chinese is wuxin), one acts with a pure, in the moment state of consciousness, not distracted by any emotion, including hate or anger--even when killing, if the circumstance morally and practically demand it.

    As for Dooku's reaction, I cannot explain it. Surely he could not have been surprised that Mace could best Jango. But neither that conclusion nor my not knowing the answer does not mean that Dooku was surprised that Mace would go so far as to kill Jango.
  2. Panakas_Dawg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2004
    star 5
    I'm waiting for the "Yoda's Dirty Little Secret" thread.
  3. agcjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2003
    star 1
    You know, a lot of good points are made up there with the balance/symbiotic relationships. It was stressed heavily in TPM. I wouldn't be surprised to see Mace tap into the darkside with his duel with Palpatine. It would show a much stronger influence on Anakin as he observes this.
    However,I wouldn't be surprised if this is all speculation either. I would prefer a little more depth to Mace's character. As was said above, his collapse would be a great parallel to the fall of the Jedi.
  4. JustinPeeler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2003
    star 4
    agcjedi posted on 4/14/05 1:58pm
    However,I wouldn't be surprised if this is all speculation either. I would prefer a little more depth to Mace's character. As was said above, his collapse would be a great parallel to the fall of the Jedi.

    />

    Won't happen. The screenplay makes this clear.

    You do know the screenplay is out, don't you?/>/>
  5. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Dark confessions of Obi-Wan Kenobi (condensed).

    Obi-Wan is, fittingly, the first Jedi we see kill a sentient being in the PT.
    Enraged by the death of his flawed Master Qui-Gon-Jinn, who refused to follow the Jedi code, he chops his Sith nemesis, Darth Maul in half in cold blood, when really he should have just hung there and said kind words to him.
    He is short tempered and has little compassion for his fellow beings - "Why do I get the feeling we have picked up another useless life form?"

    In AOTC we see him abusing his Jedi powers further - using Jedi mind tricks on Ewan Sleazbaggo, forcing him to rethink his lifestyle simply because he did not fancy a smoke.
    He develops an antagonistic relationship with Anakin, often scalding him without offering him much genuine insight or guidance.
    His poor training is clearly having an adverse effect on his Padawan - how could the Jedi let him fumble the ball with their very own chosen one?
    In league with Dooku from day one, he has arranged for Dooku to put him out of the fight early so that Dooku can put the Jedi chosen one out of action and ensure victory for the Sith.

    In ROTS he does his best to chicken out of the encounter on the Invisible Hand, first prompting Ani to go on without him, then once again taking a dive against Dooku - the whole thing being another convoluted plot to assassinate the Chosen One.
    The Sith have created General Grievous as a way to keep Obi out of action while all kinds of s*** kicks-off.
    So top secret is this plot that even Grievous and the Clones have not been told about it.
    As soon as he is back, Obi decides to take out the Jedi's only hope himself and is relieved when Yoda suggests Obi takes on Anakin, who has been convinced that Palpatine actually likes him and wants him as a Sith - really this is all just another ploy to get Obi to take him out personally this time.
    Of course, being a devious Sith, he pretends he could not kill his "brother".
    He leaves the chosen one for dead, but Palpatine has a change of heart, he has doublecrossed Obi and - feeling Ani was actually a better apprentice - restores the fallen Chosen One.

    Obi spends much of the intervening years thinking up new ways to destroy the Sith who have betrayed him and decides to start training Anakin's own son - against the wishes of the Jedi he pretended to be part of for so long.
    But he could still use the foolish Yoda in his plan.
    Having learned the secret of eternal life, after studying a holocron left by Darth Plagueis, he becomes a ghost right in front of his nemesis, Anakin.
    Talk about rubbing his face in it.

    etc etc

    He gets his comeuppance when Luke refuses to do any of the things he has been instructing him to do, and rather than kill Vader and Palps - thus leaving Obi free to start a new Sith Order, he gets all "familied up" and brings Vader back to the light.
    "Ah well", says Obi, "if you can't beat 'em.
    and they all live happily ever after.
  6. Moriarte Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    star 5
    Gah I just wrote a rebuttal that went past the Edit mark. Suffice it to say, you are looking FAR too much into glances and words that contain NO double-meaning whatsoever. It is not Mace that is at fault, but how Palpatine manipulates the people around him-including Mace.

    However, I will say that when Mace defends Dooku against Padme's suspicion-why would Mace think otherwise? How are "disgruntled spice miners" a poor theory? Mace has decades of personal experience and knowledge with who Dooku is as a person, there would be no reason for Mace to think Dooku is, suddenly, an evil Sith trying to start a rebellion(secession).

    Secondly, Mace does not kill Jango in cold blood but self-defense. The idea that a Jedi cannot kill is ludicrous as Jedi have to be able to kill in self-defense just as any else must be able to for the preservation of life. Also, Mace had to kill Jango in the arena-do you really think he would have time to take him captive in that arena battlezone? Then Mace going to kill Palpatine...he's a Sith who orchestrated a galactic war which means the death of millions (perhaps billions) and wants to kill all the Jedi-he needs to be offed fast. Palpatine does not have to attack any one Jedi personally in order for the killing of Palpatine to be self-defense.

    Lastly, JustinPeeler, it has nothing to do with Mace being black. Why don't people give that a rest.


    Ciou-See ths Gi
  7. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5

    http://img128.echo.cx/img128/1069/joshowned3we.jpg

    At least someone see's the darkness in mace!
  8. Violetsaber Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 3
    Twenty pages worth of stuff to make Mace look like he uses the Dark Side? When none of the books, screenplays, comics, movies, or cartoons have ever come right out and SAID IT? This is the ultimate in interpretation, and methinks somebody has something against Mace Windu.

    Before anybody types of anything like this again, just remember that there is just as much evidence in books, screenplays, comics, movies, and cartoons to make Yoda look like a complete idiot who make almost each and every mistake Mace ever did...with the right interpretation.

    Nothing personal against the two good people who wrote all this up. I just think that this much effort is a little rediculous, and makes me wonder exactly what your motivation is.

    Violetsaber
  9. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Mace Windu is my favourite character. SLJ is one of my favourite actors.
  10. tephjo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2005
    star 4
    Mace Does a very un-jedi like thing trying to kill a totaly defensless Palpatine. Thats all.

    Hes not the first(kenobi) or the last(luke) to do come close to a dark side act.

    ...and since we learn after that Sidious was totaly faking, and not at all injured or tired at all, its pretty moot.

    FACT- Mace was thinking about doing the deed

    FACT- Mace never got to do it

    It would be like calling someone a murderer before they commited the crime.

    For all we know Mace could have swung the blade 2 inches from Sidious' face and stopped, coming to his senses.(which would make Sidious force fry Windu,but since Mace really thought he was down, its alwasy an option)
  11. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    It would be like calling someone a murderer before they commited the crime.

    Exactly.
    Brilliant.
  12. jag29 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2002
    star 3
    In reading his summary I don't believe he thinks Windu is a traitor, Sith or even evil. I believe he thinks that Windu is going through the same things as Anakin. Making bad choices and what not. Things that lead him to making even worse choices. Choices that effect everyone. His love for the Republic can be viewed as an attachment. He doesn't want to lose the republic. Hence fear leading to everything else.

    It was a nice read but this story is about Anakin and not Windu.

    Jag29
  13. TheChosen1 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2001
    star 4
    It reminds me of the TPM days when people tried to read all sorts of crap into that look that Qui Gon and Darth Maul exchanged.
  14. tephjo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2005
    star 4
    Exactly.
    Brilliant.
    ------------

    :)
  15. Violetsaber Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 3
    Mace Windu is my favourite character. SLJ is one of my favourite actors.

    Okay, I'm wrong. Still, dude...that was a LOT of work. How long did it take you to put all that together?

    Oh...and as for Mace about to kill Sidious...he would not have been killing an unarmed man. He would have been killing a man who could jump up and blast him out the window with Force Lighning at any moment.

    Violetsaber
  16. Master-GK Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2005
    I also find this push to make Mace Windu a bad guy strange. As *NAME* said any aggorance and "evil" we might see in Mace is only a reflection of the Jedi's inability to use the Living Force that Qui-Gon advocated.
  17. tephjo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2005
    star 4
    and as for Mace about to kill Sidious...he would not have been killing an unarmed man. He would have been killing a man who could jump up and blast him out the window with Force Lighning at any moment.
    --------------------------------------------------



    ..but Mace, Anakin, and the general audiance wont know that until its too late. But as I said before, its moot because he never gets a chance to actually commit the act.

    Lol in a very strange and twisted sense, Anakin saves Mace from committing a darkside act against the Jedi Code. What a strange movie this is at times.
  18. DARTH_HATRED Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2005
    Did he think I was actually going so sit and read all that?

    I have better things to do...like watch grass grow.
  19. jag29 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2002
    star 3
    Then why even reply to this thread then?

    Jag29
  20. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    Just to clear up one thing regarding that image of Mace Windu. It's not a cut scene, it's not a scene that was supposed to have Yoda next to him, etc... When I saw it I instantly recognized it. It's Lucas Select #30 from way before Episode II even had a name. The pic is a shot of Mace entering Dooku's viewing box in the Geonosian arena.

    [image=http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/explore/selects/2001/02/img/select.jpg]
  21. lighteninggun Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 17, 2003
    star 3
    "At least someone see's the darkness in mace!"

    I believe this tapping into the dark side refers to his personal fighting style, Vapaad.
  22. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
  23. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Are you sure about that, Sapes - I agree it was a Lucas Select and all that, and that it was also in the UK SW mag, but I thought it was from the cut scene where Mace and Yoda discuss the assassination attempts, then get on to "Only those going through the Dark Side of the Force can see the possibilites of the future [sic]" stuff?
  24. Maleficentogre Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2005
    star 3
    the exact same thing could be done with the opposite. I debated doing one after I first got here, but there's too much mace here to make it worth anyone's time.
  25. steverodgers801 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2005
    star 1
    All you prove is what should be obvious, Mace is flawed as all are and yes he carries the dark side within him because he has the force. The main flaw the Jedi have is their arrogance, it has been a thousand years since the Sith have been around and I doubt there have been any threats to the Jedi order since. The Jedi have forgotton what a threat is and are slow to react to an subtle threat. There is nothing worse to fighting then a victory because there is a tendancy to not examine what happened just a reliance on what worked. To be in the dark side is blatant there cannt be a possible connection since the forse is one way or the other.
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