Dark Confessions of Jedi Master Windu

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Master_Shaitan, Apr 14, 2005.

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  1. tephjo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2005
    star 4
    Keep in mind what im quoting below from 2 scenes from the screenplay (Mace/Palps/Anakin)/(Dooku/Palps/Anakin) and 1 quote from the Making Of Book is not to show Mace uses the darkside, ever, but to show that Mace's conduct during the Palps duel towards the end was very un-jedi like.

    He did not get the chance to follow through with it, however, so the point is moot, but here it is anyways:

    _______________________________________________

    ANAKIN cuts off COUNT DOOKU's head. A huge EXPLOSION somewhere deep in the ship rattles everything.

    ANAKIN: ... I couldn't stop myself.

    PALPATINE: You did well, Anakin. He was too dangerous to be kept alive.

    ANAKIN drops COUNT DOOKU's lightsaber, moving to PALPATINE.

    ANAKIN: Yes, but he was an unarmed prisoner.

    ANAKIN raises his hands toward PALPATINE, who is strapped in the Admiral's Chair. The Chancellor's restraints pop loose.

    ANAKIN: (continuing) I shouldn't have done that, Chancellor. It's not the Jedi way.

    __________________________________________________

    PALAPTINE: "I can't... I give up. Help me. I am weak... I am too weak. Don't kill me. I give up. I'm dying. I can't hold on any longer."
    MACE WINDU: "You Sith disease. I am going to end this once and for all."
    ANAKIN: "You can't kill him, Master. He must stand trial."
    MACE WINDU: "He has too much control over the Senate and the Courts. He is too dangerous to be kept alive."
    PALPATINE: "I am too weak. Don't kill me please."
    ANAKIN: "It is not the Jedi way..."

    MACE raises his sword to kill the CHANCELLOR.

    __________________________________________________

    "But Mace was going to arrest Palpatine," Knoll says, "and a few moments later he says Palpatine's too dangerous to live. What happened?"
    "Mace was going to do the right thing by arresting him, but after Palpatine does the lightning, he changes his mind." -GL


    Once again, Mace never uses the darkside, he possibly ALMOST uses it there at the very end, but even then that choice was taken out of his hands by Anakin.
  2. SALACIOUS-SCUM Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2005
    star 1
    Exellent post.

    It also should be stated that Mace is no less the jedi for it. Any PT jedi would probably be doing the same thing becuase they are all flawed at this time.
  3. TheJediMasterMan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2005
    star 1
    Master_Shaitan you hit it spot on. I can't wait to see everybody's reaction on these boards when May 19th is here. Lucas has droped these small hints for us but I am amazed how few actually see them.
  4. TheSuperSpecies Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2004
    star 1
    Excellent post. Long and well-thought out. As said above, I dont see the people that wrote the post as being the typical anti-Mace type. Whats basically being said is that Mace makes a lot of costly mistakes. Who can really disagree with this? A lot of good points were made, but I will add this:

    Though its very clear that the leadership of the Jedi Council made monumental mistakes that gave victory to the Sith Lords, I dont feel that arrogance is the most vital reason for this. Let us not forget that a battle of the force is taking place, and that a conflict is surrounding the galaxy. With a growing darkness clouding the force-sensitive Jedi Knights, its hard to put all the blame solely on them, partically Mace or Yoda. Sidious has all the cards in this, folks. He has the advantage of being faceless- no one knows how he looks, or even if he is human. He also has the advantage of having a war distract the Jedi. Lets face it, when a war that involves the whole galaxy is taking place, you just dont have all the time and resources in the world to devote to the finding of the mysterious Lord Sidious. Add to these two reasons the fact that the public is turning against the Jedi because of Dooku's involvment in the Clone wars- then you will see that the Jedi's plate are FULL. Seriously, they are trying their best, how about giving them some credit? You cant catch what you dont know.

    Mace, as well as the other council leaders' biggest problem is the growing darkside thats causing their bad decisions- as the first post said. But ask yourself this, how can you make smart decisions, if you dont know that you are making bad decisions?

    Its the Jedi's ignorance, not arrogance, when it comes down to it. And as the old saying goes- 'What you dont know, you dont know that you dont know it'. If you take away the ability to use the force- which gives a Jedi his power to make wise decisions, then you basically render him powerless. A powerless Jedi cannot stop much of anything. Sidious can have his way with them as a result. They dont see it coming, but they arent to blame as much as some make it out to be. Its the darkside and Sidious thats causing the problems.

    The force is strong with the Sith Lords and has left the Jedi Knights in the PT. The force is only strong in Yoda and Obi-wan. This is why they survive the purge and go on to grow even stronger in the force, eventually surpassing the Sith. Mace was just a victim of the growing darkside in the PT.
  5. PrinceEspaaValorum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2005
    star 4
    "But Mace was going to arrest Palpatine," Knoll says, "and a few moments later he says Palpatine's too dangerous to live. What happened?"
    "Mace was going to do the right thing by arresting him, but after Palpatine does the lightning, he changes his mind." -GL

    Once again, Mace never uses the darkside, he possibly ALMOST uses it there at the very end, but even then that choice was taken out of his hands by Anakin.


    Even if Mace were to have killed Palps, in and of itself that is not using the dark side. And even if there is a parallel bt Anakin's beheading Dooku and Mace's about to kill Palps, there is a difference. Anakins was manipulated to kill Dooku who was defenseless and in no position to harm Anakin. Moreover, Anakin gives into his anger. Palps is not defenseless when Mace is about to strike him. Furthermore, Mace was not giving into anger, but about to rid the Republic of its menace.

    Also, in both scenes, Palps is manipulating Anakin.
  6. Imperial Politician Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 1999
    star 4
  7. darthRebel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2004
    star 2
    I think mace was the apprentice of syfo dyas,who thought him vapad.I think that at the time of the PM or just before that there was a meeting with several important jedi who were attached to the republic and wanted to protect it because they feared the dark times ,the profecy and threads from outside.Syfo ,an old master who was skilled in vapad went to kamino to order an army for the republic in secret ,because he knew a lot of masters would not agree,and especialy not master yoda.Syfo asked his apprentice mace windu to hide the files for the benifit of the republic.WHen the republic would be in danger and thus the time to use it near,they would act and find a way to make the army legal,but at least it would be created and the republic not defenseless. Lucas said that the army was created not by reasons we all thought,or by sidious.I think dooku was at this meeting also.

    If mace has done this it doesn't make him a traitor(in a way it does,he betrays himself and the good side for the darkside),but it just makes him ressemble anakin,an arrogant jedi who wanted to control everything,feared to lose something he loved and eventualy fell to the darkside.Mace is only half darkside,thus purple saber.

    And it is a good extra motivation to understand why anakin helped sidious.I mean here he can see that sidious was right,the jedi are the same as sith,they fear ,they crave power,this one even helped create an army,and does build a weapon of destruction to help protect something he loved,even if it meant war and a lot of casualties due to war.

    If mace is this character it doesn't mean he is a traitor.He is much like dooku or anakin ...And don't come with that crap that its racist or something cause if lukas chose him for this its not because he is black but because he is the best actor around to make it work,look at pulp fiction or shaft or whateva.

    I hope this is the case cause I have trouble with the transition ,but this would make it much better from the point of view of anakin.
  8. TheChosen1 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2001
    star 4
    Mace is going to kill some dude that is very dangerous and still very capable of killing him. He is doing the right thing. He is even proven right, because once Anakin intervenes, Sidious DOES kill him.
  9. IMTHEGENERAL Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2004
    star 4
    [image=http://img95.exs.cx/img95/5392/windu3xp.png]

    Thats a useful workstation you have in your office Master Windu. I guess you could contact friends from the Outer Rim there....Perhaps as far as the Rishi Maze. Or to be more specific...Lama Su - Prime Minister of kamino.



  10. Juggernaut86 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2005
    star 2
    No matter what people say beheading a person is not Jedi like
  11. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    Not another Mace is evil theory!
    Luke: "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"
    It's well thought-out. But it's not in there.
    I see all the hints that Lucas has dropped, and I thought I was quite clever back when AOTC came out and I thought Mace was evil, but it's clearly not that case.

    If you were around these boards when AOTC came out (I was a lurker at the time) there were TONS of thread about Mace's dark secrets. But I don't believe them. I suppose we'll see.
  12. Violetsaber Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 3
    Not another Mace is evil theory!
    Luke: "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"
    It's well thought-out. But it's not in there.


    Heh, that's pretty good! How bout:

    OBI-WAN: "I just felt a great disturbance in the Force...as if thousands of voice cried out at once and were suddenly silenced."

    LUKE: "You mean...Alderaan was destroyed?"

    OBI-WAN: "No...as if another theory was propounded trying to vilify an old friend of mine..."

    Violetsaber
  13. TheChosen1 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2001
    star 4
    Beheading is not Jedi like? A lightsaber is a Jedi's weapon. Lightsabers cut stuff. What else was he supposed to use, harsh language? In fact, cutting off Jango's head was probably the cleanest and most painless way to do it. It was self defense. Jango was trying to burn him and shoot him. He killed a Jedi Master already. Jedi's are peaceful, but they are not to be messed with. Obi Wan proved that in the Cantina in the very first Starwars. He tried to resolve it peacefully, but he was forced to kick some ass. Maybe old Ben is evil!
  14. jvberggren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    No matter what people say beheading a person is not Jedi like

    he's only behelmeting [face_laugh]

    jango had it coming...
  15. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Thats a useful workstation you have in your office Master Windu. I guess you could contact friends from the Outer Rim there....Perhaps as far as the Rishi Maze. Or to be more specific...Lama Su - Prime Minister of kamino.

    Erm, no - how about he used it for this...

    71 INT JEDI TEMPLE, MACE WINDU´S QUARTERS - EARLY EVENING
    Yoda and Mace Windu listen as a hologram of Obi-Wan stands between them broadcasting the message. The signal is very weak, the image fades in and out.

    OBI-WAN (V.O.): "I've never heard of a Jedi called Sido-Dyas, have you, Master?"

    MACE WINDU: "No. Whoever placed that order was not a Jedi, I can assure you."

    OBI-WAN (V.O.): "I have a strong feeling that this bounty hunter is the assassin we're looking for."

    YODA: "Who he is working for? discover that, you must."

    OBI-WAN (V.O.): "I will, Master, and I will also find out more about this clone army? May The Force?"

    The hologram switches off, and OBI-WAN fades away.

    MACE WINDU: "A clone army! Ordered by someone in the Senate perhaps? Someone's out to start a war."

    YODA: "Inform the Chancellor of this, we must."

    MACE WINDU: "Who do you think this impostor, Sido-Dyas, could be?"

    YODA stares back at MACE WINDU, then slowly shakes his head.


    ....before the scene was moved to Yoda's quarters in the third draft.
    But not before this set had appeared in the graphic novel: Graphic Novel scene
  16. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
  17. Darth_Bladder Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2005
    That was some great reading!! I actually have to agree in all points shown....I feel sad that this view of Mace isn't shown in the movie....

    In the end when mace tries to kill Palpatine he goes down down the path of the dark side... anakin seing this great jedi master go against all the teachings of the jedi order, should be enough for anakin for him to turn!
    Along with the need to save padme !

    Please let it be that the acting is not wooden but passionate... please remove crappy dialogue like :

    Obi: The flaw of power is arrogance
    Ani:you hesitate...the flaw of compassion

    ani:..."from my point of view, the jedi are evil
    "....This is the end for you my master i wish it were otherwise"


    What a piece of crap of dialogue ! i wan't to FEEL EMOTION , empathy , anything.... I wanna fell hate and pain and sorrow ....

    I think it shoul be like this:

    Obi: Don't do this ani, you're my friend!!! Don't DO THIS!!(holding on barely)
    Ani : You're were never my friend! you've betrayed me, holding me back..! But now master, I WILL KILL YOU!!

    ani: The galaxy needs a new order and strength to achieve peace, and the jedi are not the solution...
    They're the problem....!! (Grim) ...There aren't many jedi left... (laughs)
    "Time to join the Force obi-wan -kenobi, say hello to master windu for me" If you only could feel the Power!!
    Now.....it's time to die ....


    I believe the intense hates is much better!
  18. cpt_john_sith Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2005
    star 1
    :-B



    [image=http://www.mednemo.it/download/umorismo/pubblicita/originali/originali1/obsession.jpg]


    Obsession its not just a cologne
  19. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    And here is the graphic novel's representation of the scene which was intended to feature the pic you posted at the start of this thread:

    Mace and Yoda in the hallway

    And another photo from that deleted scene.
  20. Darth_CoBalt Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2005
    I read the whole thing. I don't know how any of his post gives weight to the poster's "point" at the end. However, its obvious the poster does not like Mace. Period. Many of the comments just take every scene with Mace and "questionably" attach some little negative thoughts or 20/20 hindsight foreshadowing. On top of that there's stupid comments that truly have no meaning if you thinkg about them:

    "Mace makes decisions (paraphrase)" -well we all know the no Jedi can make a decision without the expressed written consent of Yoda
    "Mace kills people who try to kill him and his friends (paraphrase)" -just like Luke with Jabba, Obi-Wan and QuiGon with Darth Maul, just like Yoda with Sidious, and like Anakin with everybody...
    "Mace no longer trusts Palpatine - why" -are @$*ing serious. 1.) hes taking away all senate and Jedi powers and prolonging the war .2) its not just Mace, but the whole council 3.) can your hatred of Mace truly be that blinding?
    "Yoda goes on to describe what turns out to be the exact Sith plan. Mace falls for this trap in the film." -no, not true. the Jedi play on this to create their own trap. Yoda is on Kashyyk for a reason. Without Anakin's interference, it may have worked.


    Truly pathetic that Mace garners all this attention. I don't understand. Again, I do not agree with this poster. I'm not gonna criticize his evidence anymore, just try and dispute his point. Mace is not attached, ala Anakin to Padme, to the Republic. Mace, like all the other Jedi, including Anakin and Yoda, are attached to the Jedi Order and its survival. If you listen to the audio, Yoda and Mace argue over what to do about Palpatine and the phantom sith menace with Mace wanting the Jedi to act solo, if you will, and Yoda still wanting to work through the Republic. He's ready to tell the Republic about their diminished skills becauses he's wants to be true to the order and not the fickle whims of public opinion. Mace understands, unlike the poster supporters who won't read how asinine the poster's points are, how to see through the bull$#!* that the Jedi have become entangled in. They aren't battling against the Sith, they are are trying to survive an ambush. The one flaw which all the Jedi are guilty of is trying to keep the organization (in and of itself not a bad thing), but while maintain a position of importance, power, and respect within the political power structure (unnecessary). They knew the senate was corrupt but they still serverd (albeit with good intentions) and payed the price for their misplaced loyalty.
  21. Arliss Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2005
    star 4


    In fact I'm going to go farther and go Michael Moore on Mace's ass. I think Mace is not on the side of the jedi, and I even might go as far as to say he is a Sith, probably Darth Plageus, which is why Sidious needs Anakin to beat him. I wouldn't even be suprised if Mace was jewish. :)

  22. jvberggren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    ^^However, its obvious the poster does not like Mace.

    i don't find that to be true at all. i've been debating with these guys for some time and they're clearly not 'mace haters'.

    BTW, there are two people behind this thread.
  23. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
  24. JM-Yoda Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2005
    Wow! I've got to commend you for writing so much and putting so much thought and time into a very carefully considered and VERY interesting read.
    May I just advise you to ignore the fools who complain about its length - if it is too long for you to read then go read something else, dont' ask for a summary because it is a good thesis, a good thorough explanation - if bits were chopped out, crucial explaining bits, then these 'gaps' would be picked up upon by people as flaws in the theory. Just read the damned thing if you're going to pass comment.
    I've read it and was thoroughly impressed. It is a very interesting view on the character. Some of the things I agree with, some not so much, but either way well done for such a superb exploration!
  25. DA_SINISTA_MINISTA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 1
    Denial can be such a funny thing...



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