Dark Confessions of Jedi Master Windu

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Master_Shaitan, Apr 14, 2005.

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  1. mustardlyman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2005
    star 1
    No offense but that is rediculous. Are you guys shrinks or something? What next Mace was on the grassy knoll? Gimme a break he's not evil and he doesn't use the dark side. It's clear that he does not want the Jedi to get involved in the war at first but when he does fight he goes by the old football saying "the best defense is a good offense". He fights to win. Not because he's evil but because when you lose you probably die. Also ALL the jedi Masters are naive and ignorant including Yoda.
  2. Arliss Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2005
    star 4
    What next Mace was on the grassy knoll?

    Now that you mention it........


    he goes by the old football saying "the best defense is a good offense".


    If you know football than you are aware of the saying, "offense wins games, but defense wins championships."


    And Mace does use the dark side...............


    VAPAAD Mother******!!!
  3. tephjo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2005
    star 4
    VAPAAD Mother******!!!
    --------------------------

    Vapaad sucks and is the reason for much of the Mace hate i think.

    There is no such thing as "skriting the lines" of the dark side, enjoying combat, ect, ect, without a price to be paid.

    I love the character of Mace Windu, but if it aint mentioned in the movie.....it doesnt count....and for that, im grateful.

    I remember when they asked Nick gillard about Vappad, and he didnt know what it was. He said something like SLJ "does what i tell him to do"-NOT EXACT, but u get the point.

    Vapaad was an idiotic EU creation, and it will stay there.
  4. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    It is important for the story that Mace had been on a dark path and is influenced by the dark side for these reasons:

    1) We have heard that the Jedi have been clouded, arrogant and too sure of themselves. This would show us the extent of this. And if Mace conflict with darkness is shown (as I think it will be) we could see that Mace believes he can control it but is wrong - he can't.

    2) We know that the Jedi have had the wrong training - this would show the extent of this too. We only see on screen Anakin's turn and that has more to do with Palpatine than his own mistakes. I think we need to see more changes in other characters. We need to see on screen what the dark side has done to respected characters. We always knew Anakin was going to turn. By seeing another character be led, who is more respected, then we would see its real strength. We also need to see why it is wrong to use the dark side in battle - "quick to join you in a fight". Anakin has had the darkness with him since we first met him and have seen him use it many times. We haven?t seen it from any other Jedi in battle. By showing Mace use the dark side which results in Anakin completing his turn (starting the Jedi purge as well as his own death) we will see the consequences.

    3) Why have a number two/equal to Yoda on the council if he he's just going to be exactly the same? GL usually likes to have opposite characters together on screen (Luke and Han for example). It just seems pointless to me.

    4) Flesh out Mace Windu. Give him some real character. More motivation. If he just acts like everyone else and goes out against Sidious, for me he dies a punk and it would have been a waste of what could have been a great character, played by a great actor.

    5) Why give Mace a darker character than the other Jedi? Some may disagree with this but my opinions began somewhere - for me they began with Mace's aggressive tone, his moody and at times curious looks, his ruthless streak etc. Why is it in the novels that the darker side of Mace Windu is examined? - we don't see this with any other Jedi. For me its to give him an edge. Give him an angle and a story. Without it he's just another Jedi. This gives him a purpose in life and in the story itself. I?m talking here about his emotions and love for the Republic. That?s his character and it leads to the dark side. Great character - great tragedy.

    6) Someone has to be responsible for falling into the Sith's trap. This is Mace Windu. He is written in a way that his character doesn?t stand on ceremony, he is a person that doesn't like to be in a corner. He's the one that leads the Jedi into battle on Geonosis. he's the one that leads the posse against Sidious. On both of these occasions he fails. Its exciting. Its brave. But ultimately its flawed. On screen only Mace is accountable. He's in charge. The reason for this is IMO Yoda can't be seen to be too flawed else he would never have realised the truth nor survived the clone wars and would have lost too much respect. Let this fall on Mace Windu. He takes the brunt of the Jedi's fall and its his actions that are the responsible more than any other Jedi (obviously Anakin and Palpatine aside here!).

    7) By having someone on 'the inside' who has fallen trap to the dark side. Someone who has been influenced and based his decision making on darkness it would be more plausible that the Jedi fall. That the people making the choices are influenced so it makes sense that they fall for the traps set by the dark side.

    8) There needs to be a character that Anakin Skywalker could really dislike and whom he could attack to start him on the dark path. I don't think it would work as well if he went for Obi Wan or Yoda at this point. It had to be Mace Windu. So why does he feel like this about Mace? Mace has held him back (yes the council makes decision together but its Mace that voices them. This isn?t a bad thing from Mace (though his tone is sometimes misplaced) so why is that enough to make Anakin go as far as attacking him? For me he see's that another side
  5. IMTHEGENERAL Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2004
    star 4
  6. Arliss Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2005
    star 4
    There is no such thing as "skriting the lines" of the dark side, enjoying combat, ect, ect, without a price to be paid.


    Everything isn't black and white. The jedi made the mistake of thinking that.

    And I know it sounds ridiculous and I can't really back it up, but I'm telling you there is something more going on with Mace than meets the eye. Intuition maybe, but Mace is evil.


    I'm telling you he is in on it on some level.
  7. Master_Gallia Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2004
    star 2
    "Mr. Gambini. That was a well thought out, articulated objection. OVERRULED!!!


    Why are people trying so hard to connect Mace Windu to the dark side?

    Seriously, I just don't get it.
  8. Arliss Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2005
    star 4
  9. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    MS, most of the points you make above can be dealt with easily, because we have the script:

    ...And if Mace conflict with darkness is shown (as I think it will be)...

    How exactly?
    What do you mean "shown" - we have the script and it isn't in there?

    ...If he just acts like everyone else and goes out against Sidious...

    But he does do this, whether you choose to accept it or not.
    He goes against Sidious.
    How can you even say that a month before the film comes out?

    That?s his character and it leads to the dark side.

    But it doesn't.
    None of the wild theories, interesting as they are, you mentioned in the first post are actually there unless they are revealled in ROTS...
    ...and to be blunt, we all know they aren't!

    Why is it in the novels that the darker side of Mace Windu is examined? - we don't see this with any other Jedi. For me its to give him an edge.

    Because that is his character.
    And that is what gives him an "edge".
    He is a unique Jedi, who flirts with a focused style of swordfighting which threatens to bring him close to the dark side, but never succumbs to it.
    That is his character.
    He is the Jedi's bad cop.
    But he is nothing to do with the Dark Side of the Force.

    There needs to be a character that Anakin Skywalker could really dislike and whom he could attack to start him on the dark path. I don't think it would work as well if he went for Obi Wan or Yoda at this point. It had to be Mace Windu.

    But he does all of those things in the script - he ticks all of those boxes - without one mention of anger or the Dark Side.
    So even when your reason for pushing this idea is satiated, you still need the Dark Side thing.
    You think Ani strikes Mace because he doesn't like him?
    You think it is personal?
    Ani kills Mace for one reason only - he is not Palpatine.

    Why have a number two/equal to Yoda on the council if he he's just going to be exactly the same?

    Why does different = Dark Side?
    Yoda is different from Qui Gon.
    Obi is different from Mace.
    Mace is alrady different, but the reason he is a number two Jedi who must be seen as sharing a lot with Yoda is simple - Yoda is already in the OT.
    GL cannot kill Yoda off.
    Mace is the Yoda that can die.
    Mace is the Yoda substitute - free form the shackles of retro-continuity.
  10. IMTHEGENERAL Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2004
    star 4
    Anakin had attachments- corrupted by the darkside
    Dooku had attachments-corrupted by the darkside

    Mace Windu has an attachment...The Republic-the words of Matthew stover used after an in depth coversation with George Lucas...the creator.

    Attachment is forbidden.

    So what happens to Windu?


    Why highlight his attachment?
  11. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    MS, most of the points you make above can be dealt with easily, because we have the script:

    So you know everything that happens then GiG? Thats funny...i would have sworn there was a debate going on in the mace/palpatine thread about what happens in that fight even though we have the 'script'. I must be...mistaken?

    Why bring up Obi's affair with a female Jedi in the Visual Dictionary?

    Visual dictionary written by people who have not had the same involvment as Stover. AND Obi doesnt base his choices on his love. Mace does. Next..oh yeah...


    Why does Obi love Ani and not become a demon?

    We see that he doesnt. He fights anakin. He doesnt let his love for anakin stop him from being a jedi.

    Sheesh GiG. I thought you had better stuff than that...
  12. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Anakin had attachments- corrupted by the darkside
    Dooku had attachments-corrupted by the darkside

    Mace Windu has an attachment...The Republic-the words of Matthew stover used after an in depth coversation with George Lucas...the creator.

    Attachment is forbidden.

    So what happens to Windu?


    He dies.
    And he dies a Jedi.

    Why highlight his attachment?

    Why bring up Obi's affair with a female Jedi in the Visual Dictionary?
    Why does Obi love Ani and not become a demon?
  13. JustinPeeler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2003
    star 4
    IMTHEGENERAL posted on 4/14/05 5:43pm
    Dooku had attachments-corrupted by the darkside

    Mace Windu has an attachment...The Republic-the words of Matthew stover used after an in depth coversation with George Lucas...the creator.

    Attachment is forbidden.

    So what happens to Windu?


    Why highlight his attachment?


    />

    Because he if fighting to save the Republic that he loves. As the book says./>/>
  14. Invictus_Sol Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2003
    star 4
    Wow, people will just run with any little scrap they can. This will never, ever play a role in the movies so it seems a total waste of time to even consider it. Mace is a paragon of virtue in the prequels, not some apprentice of the dark side. His only flaw is that he's a little overconfident. ****!!! Mace is human!!111!!!
  15. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Because he if fighting to save the Republic that he loves. As the book says

    so whats the difference between his love for the republic and anakins love for padme. they both base their choices on this love/attachment.

    goodnight.
  16. Arliss Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2005
    star 4
    VAPAAD!!!!!!!!!!


    :cool: Has SLJ all over it.
  17. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    So you know everything that happens then GiG? Thats funny...i would have sworn there was a debate going on in the mace/palpatine thread about what happens in that fight even though we have the 'script'. I must be...mistaken?

    Yes you are.
    What is being debated in the Mace/Palps thread is something specific from the script.
    Where does Mace's victory end and Palps' acting begin.
    That's what it boils down to.

    What is being discussed here is whether something that is not mentioned once in the script is going to magically appear like a bolt from the blue.

    Whereas I can see why someone would think Palaptine is faking the whole fight, faking part of it, or faking none of it - I cannot see where Mace turning to the Dark Side fits in with what we know at all.
    Because it simply isn't there in any way, shape or form.
  18. Invictus_Sol Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2003
    star 4
    so whats the difference between his love for the republic and anakins love for padme. they both base their choices on this love/attachment.

    His love isn't possessive/obsessive. They are guardians of the Republic, so all the Jedi have this "attachment". It's just such a stupid argument. That's their frickin' job, for crying out loud.
  19. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    so whats the difference between his love for the republic and anakins love for padme. they both base their choices on this love/attachment.

    And Obi's love for Ani?

    VAPAAD!!!!!!!!!!


    Has SLJ all over it.



    I'm not even sure what that means.
    I'm not even sure SLJ would know what Vaapad means, it not being mentioned once in any of the scripts he has worked on...
  20. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Look at this response again (like you need to look at aotc again).

    Why bring up Obi's affair with a female Jedi in the Visual Dictionary?

    Visual dictionary written by people who have not had the same involvment as Stover. AND Obi doesnt base his choices on his love. Mace does. Next..oh yeah...


    Why does Obi love Ani and not become a demon?

    We see that he doesnt. He fights anakin. He doesnt let his love for anakin stop him from being a jedi.

    Sheesh GiG. I thought you had better stuff than that...
  21. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Visual dictionary written by people who have not had the same involvment as Stover.

    That simply isn't true.

    AND Obi doesnt base his choices on his love. Mace does.

    And you can't prove that at all.
    In the script he changes his mind because he believes Palaptine more dangerous than he first suspected.
    Lucas has said, he changes his mind when the lightning makes an appearance.

    I warned you this would happen.
    You and General scoffed when I said - once the novel comes out, we will know basically everything that happens in the movie.
    Oh no, you said, they woudln't give the plot away in the novel, there will be lots of secrets that Lucas is keeping for the film.

    I pointed out, that is not how the novel works - everything in the film will be in the novel in some shape or form but it doesn't work the other way around.
    Not everything in the novel will have any relavance to the film. There will be lots of stuff which is purely the author's interpretation, ideas which were only discussed in the genesis of the early drafts.
    You can take the film and say "pretty much all of that was in the novel."
    But you cannot take the novel and say "pretty much all of that is in the film."

    And now you are clinging to Stover's every word, yet you, or maybe General, told me that the novel would be a load of tosh - we would know nothing until May 19.

    What went wrong?
  22. Invictus_Sol Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2003
    star 4
    So is Obi-Wan a Sith disciple since he killed Maul and didn't arrest him? Afterall, he could've just sliced Maul's hand off, instead of killing him in true Sithly fashion!
  23. JustinPeeler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2003
    star 4
    Get_in_Gear posted on 4/14/05 5:59pm
    Visual dictionary written by people who have not had the same involvment as Stover.

    That simply isn't true.

    AND Obi doesnt base his choices on his love. Mace does.

    And you can't prove that at all.
    In the script he changes his mind because he believes Palaptine more dangerous than he first suspected.
    Lucas has said, he changes his mind when the lightning makes an appearance.

    />

    Exactly.

    After Mace disarms Sidious, he says "For all your power my Lord, all you are is under arrest".

    Then Sidious starts to fry him. He realizes that even unarmed the Lord of the Sith is too dangerous and moves in for the kill while Sidious is down./>/>
  24. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5

    That simply isn't true.

    go on....

    And you can't prove that at all.
    In the script he changes his mind because he believes Palaptine more dangerous than he first suspected.
    Lucas has said, he changes his mind when the lightning makes an appearance.


    Ok. Thanks for that...??!






  25. tephjo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2005
    star 4
    I'm not even sure SLJ would know what Vaapad means, it not being mentioned once in any of the scripts he has worked on...
    ----------------------------------------------------

    Exactly GiG.

    Vaapad is a fanboy saber stlye to make Mace fight like a sith AND be still be a jedi.

    To put frank, its rubbish.
    Hes good because hes good.

    Next thing u know some writer will invent some new fighting style that Yoda had to make himself fight so good called "Yodad".
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