Dark Confessions of Jedi Master Windu

Right, im going to get some lunch.

 

Well then... if balance is achieved by the death of the Sith, in particular Sidious, then I cannot see your point that Mace trying to kill Sidious could never bring about balance. If that is the key, how could Mace be wrong for eliminating the sith?

Bottom line is he can't be wrong.

The one who is wrong is the one who preserved and strengthened the Sith - ANAKIN.

 

Well then... if balance is achieved by the death of the Sith, in particular Sidious, then I cannot see your point that Mace trying to kill Sidious could never bring about balance. If that is the key, how could Mace be wrong for eliminating the sith?

Bottom line is he can't be wrong.

The one who is wrong is the one who preserved and strengthened the Sith - ANAKIN.

Because Sidious and the dark side was too strong. Even if was was physically in the better position the likely hood was that he couldnt kill Sidious. even if Anakin didnt step in Sidious could have got away.

Yes Anakin makes bad choices. But those choices only exist because Mace went to the office.

Had Mace stayed back, consulted the force, spoke with Anakin and called back more Jedi he would be in a much stronger position.

For me, killing Sidious at that point of the film wouldnt have brought balance. Evil was everywhere - and that wasnt just Sidious.

It turned out that killing Sids in ROTK was the last act in bringing balance - i dont think it always had to be that way.

Referrin to the EU noevl LOE (I know, I know!), I like what Dooku says. Its something like:

"Even if Sidious was killed another Sith would come and then another".

The Dark Side was just too strong. Evil was everywhere. But had Mace dealt with Anakin then Sidious wouldnt have his wild card. If Mace had his own plan he could have limited the damage. Had Mace listened to the force he could have made more knowledgable choice and seen what was going on around him.

Right - lunch time!

 

Another one of your theories.

The dark side was too strong for anyone to do anything about it at the time. Yeah, I've heard this from you.

This is an example of you creating your false parameters and then forcing everyone to argue within them. A lightsaber to the throat is still a lightsaber to the throat no matter where the evil meter is set. Mace's saber isn't going to hit an "evil barrier" and fail to kill the Sith lord.

And let's talk about how much evil still existed even after the Emperor died. There were vast remnants of the Empire and enemies galore. This "Evil was everywhere" excuse is nonsense.

Evil would always remain. Imbalance in the Force would not remain in the face of the Sith's death. But there would always be villains. They just wouldn't be practitioners of the dark side of the Force.

You still have not shown proof that Mace was acting counter to the Will of the Force. But everything points to Anakin acting counter to its will.

The only reason (for you, as you put it) balance would not have been restored at that point in the saga is because it was partially in Mace's hands.

If Mace and/or Anakin killed Sidious in ROTS, it would have been the end of the Sith with remnants of evil villains, just like at the end of ROTJ.

 

Another one of your theories.

The dark side was too strong for anyone to do anything about it at the time. Yeah, I've heard this from you.

Glad you've been doing your research.

This is an example of you creating your false parameters and then forcing everyone to argue within them.

Im not forcing anyone. Its my opinion. If you dont share it thn fine - just dont tell me its wrong because your opinion is different to mine.

A lightsaber to the throat is still a lightsaber to the throat no matter where the evil meter is set. Mace's saber isn't going to hit an "evil barrier" and fail to kill the Sith lord.

Thats not what im saying. Technicaly Mace could have killed Sidious but no matter what he did it was highly unlikely. the influence of the dark side was too strong. Events would conspire against him - in this case it was Anakin. If Anakin didnt step in something else would have happened - Sidious may have even protected himself...but we wont go into that.

And let's talk about how much evil still existed even after the Emperor died. There were vast remnants of the Empire and enemies galore. This "Evil was everywhere" excuse is nonsense.

As it always will. Good and evil co-exist. but when the sith were around and the empire was at his strongest there was an imbalance. Its by no means a coincidence for me that the battle against the Empire in ROTJ goes in the Rebels favour after Sidious is destroyed.

Evil would always remain. Imbalance in the Force would not remain in the face of the Sith's death. But there would always be villains. They just wouldn't be practitioners of the dark side of the Force.

Agreed. Balance - good and evil. But while the Sith existed and while the Empire had its strnegth the force was out of balance by a long way. After Sidious death and the fall of The Empire the balance returned.

You still have not shown proof that Mace was acting counter to the Will of the Force. But everything points to Anakin acting counter to its will.

For me the very act of going to the office and confronting the Sith in the way he did was going against the will of the force. The fact that Anakin turned after the chain reaction caused by Mace's actions suggest to me it wasnt the will of the force.

The only reason (for you, as you put it) balance would not have been restored at that point in the saga is because it was partially in Mace's hands.

Eh?

If Mace and/or Anakin killed Sidious in ROTS, it would have been the end of the Sith with remnants of evil villains, just like at the end of ROTJ.

Who knows? Another Sith could have come...and another. Perhaps Anakin still would have turned? Perhaps Sidious would have escaped if Anakin didnt help him? Anything could be written. All we can do is analyse what happened.

Mace rushed in. Fell for Sidious trap. Anakin turned. Mace died. Jedi order fell.

 

By claiming the "dark sides influence" was too strong, you are unwittingly admitting that other events could have brought upon the fall of the Jedi order.
You choose to pin it on Master Windu, but by your "the darkside was going to win anyway" logic, then they were doomed no matter what.
Also shaitain, or im the general, or whoever the heck you are, pointing out to ETC that he is saying your wrong because he shares a different{and correct} opinion is highly hipocritical since you and your alter ego have been doing this the entire thread.

 

Hi everyone, well I did not read the first post because it would take to long but the replies on the first page made me think this might be talk that Mace is actually a dark side user. Well he uses it, his Vaapad technique works if you give in to the battle and he has a few dark streaks like trying to kill Palps without trial (Even though he had a good reason) but overall he is fighting for good really I believe.

 

Look into vaapad more....it is used to counter maces darkness, meaning he posseses none. It is used to use the darkside against itself, and to master vaapad...as mace has...you have to be completely calm. It's not like vaapad sends him into a fit of rage...it does exactly the oposite. It uses the darksides rage against itself...hence why he was able to best sidious.

 

By claiming the "dark sides influence" was too strong, you are unwittingly admitting that other events could have brought upon the fall of the Jedi order.
You choose to pin it on Master Windu, but by your "the darkside was going to win anyway" logic, then they were doomed no matter what.

I dont think that at all. I think the dark side was always going to gain power, especially with the complacency of the jedi order. But the sith could have been stopped if the jedi amde the right choices and if anakin didnt turn.

Also shaitain, or im the general, or whoever the heck you are, pointing out to ETC that he is saying your wrong because he shares a different{and correct} opinion is highly hipocritical since you and your alter ego have been doing this the entire thread.

No I...*cough*...I mean...no we havent. You're wrong about that!

"Get off my land!"

 

Well...ITG,or should I just say you have even argued that official sources are wrong because they differ from your interpretation. case in point, the reason why Palpatine now has a butt-face. It's all good though Imthegeneralshaitan.
I admire your convictions, but sadly cannot agree with them.

 

Anakin turned because of Mace's actions?

Anakin turned because he had a vision of his wife dying.
Anakin turned because he could not bear to let go of her.
Anakin turned because Palpatine vowed to show him how he to prevent his wife's death.
Anakin turned because he knew Palpatine had to die, and the only way to stop this happening was to defend him.
To say Anakin turned because of Mace's actions is pretty naiive if you ask me.
Anakin turned and it was his choice, and it was wrong.

 

Well...ITG,or should I just say you have even argued that official sources are wrong because they differ from your interpretation. case in point, the reason why Palpatine now has a butt-face. It's all good though Imthegeneralshaitan.
I admire your convictions, but sadly cannot agree with them.

My name is Neo...I mean Master Shaitan!

Im with my alter ego ITG on that though! The quotes I have read and the impression I got point to the fact that it was his real face and that when he used the lightning he unmasked himself - the lightning injury was just and excuse.

That OS is full of contardictions IMO

 

Exactly

"...some of the people had a hard time with the reason that Anakin goes bad. Somebody asked whether somebody could kill Anakin's best friend, so that he really gets angry. They wanted a real betrayal, such as, "You tried to kill me so now I'm going to try and kill you." They didn't seem to understand the fact that Anakin is simply greedy. There is no revenge. The revenge of the Sith is Palpatine. It doesn't have much to do with Darth Vader; he's a pawn in the whole scheme....

- GEORGE LUCAS, The Making of ROTS, p. 188


Also, i'd say it's the complete opposite Shait; the fact that Anakin turned and destroyed the balance when he betrayed Mace screams out that what Anakin did wasn't the will of the force. To make that true, Mace had to be doing the right thing. Unless you're one of the "it's the will of the force that everything goes bad" supporters.

- O_F

 

Anakin turned because of Mace's actions?

Anakin turned because he had a vision of his wife dying.
Anakin turned because he could not bear to let go of her.
Anakin turned because Palpatine vowed to show him how he to prevent his wife's death.
Anakin turned because he knew Palpatine had to die, and the only way to stop this happening was to defend him.
To say Anakin turned because of Mace's actions is pretty naiive if you ask me.
Anakin turned and ti was his choice, and it was wrong.

Thats not what im saying Gig and you know it! Stop trying to make me look foolish

Im saying Mace walked into the situation that lead to Anakins turn. Basically he fell hook line and sinker for Palpatines trap.

Had he reacted differently, talked to Anakin and done everything else I have said that situation could have been avoided. But he rushed straight in and missed everything that was going on around him.

 

When you say "Anakin turned because of Mace's actions", what else are we to think?

So did Ackbar and the whole Rebellion in ROTJ.
I don't see how tha makes Mace a "bad Jedi".

...and if that dog hadn't stopped for a ****, it would have won the race...

 

When you say "Anakin turned because of Mace's actions", what else are we to think?

You should know me by now GiG!

So did Ackbar and the whole Rebellion in ROTJ.
I don't see how tha makes Mace a "bad Jedi".

Because he is a jedi and could have avoided it....

...and if that dog hadn't stopped for a ****, it would have won the race...

Great.

 

Is the Visual dictionary full of contadictions as well shaitan?
As far as the Ian Mcdiarmid quotes you are speaking of,thats where I see contradictions,But, I'll soften that up a bit and say ...exagerations. Like say...he uses a lightsaber 500 times faster than anyone else. Maybe in the novel buddy....but not in the movie.

 

Is the Visual dictionary full of contadictions as well shaitan?

Yes. Seriously though, all im saying is that it was the impression I got from the film and is backed up by quotes from GL and IM.

As far as the Ian Mcdiarmid quotes you a speaking of,thats where I see contradictions,But, I'll soften that up a bit and say ...exagerations. Like say...he uses a lightsaber 500 times faster than anyone else. Maybe in the novel buddy....but not in the movie.

Exaggeration? He exaggertaed that he unmasked himself rather than it being an injury?

*looks up definition of exaggeration*

 

No...instead of looking up exaggeration...you need to reread my post. If you don't get what I'm saying... oh well.

 

"Dont get excited". Just keeping it well humoured my friend!

Yeah, IM did exaggerate that part. But he did fight didnt he? He did have a duel with mace?

Saying that he was unmasked is completely different to it being an injury. Its not a simple exaggeration or anyhting like that - its a different scenario. IM said what GL told him. I'll go by Uncle George.

"Oh well"

 

I just think your taking the "unmaksing" too literally. The Mcdiarmid interview seemed liked it was his POV of his character...not "uncle Georges".
If you can provide me with some direct quotes from Lucas about this unmasking..I'm all ears...and like Mace said "If what you say is true..you will have gained my trust".

 

and like Mace said "If what you say is true..you will have gained my trust".

Mace also said the following-


"I think it is time to inform the Senate that our abilties to use the force have diminished"
"This partys over!"
"I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing"
"The oppression of the Sith will never return"

If you start to realise what Windu says is BS then you have gained my trust...

EDIT: palpys true form was unmasked. it wasn't an injury. Funny that when mace gets zapped in his kisser that we get and x-ray of his skull and the same with vader (ROTJ) but when palpys face gets whacked with it, no such thing happens. He used the lighting deflection as a way of tricking anakin that he was being injured by mace...he plays both anakin and mace, eventually forcing anakins intervention


"This partys over" - As your hero would say..

 

"I think it is time to inform the Senate that our abilties to use the force have diminished"
- he was loyal to the senate/republic. Not a wise move to inform
them tho as Yoda rightfully pointed out.
Just shows Mace was somewhat naive about what the Jedi were about
to face.

"This partys over!"
- a typical SLJ statement haha

"I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing"
- Again, naive. The Sith haven't ruled in his lifetime so he
never had that experience and just naturally assumed such a shift
in the force could not occurr without him/Jedi sensing it.

"The oppression of the Sith will never return"
- Optomism. If over 1000 yrs goes by without incident I'd
get comfy too. He's seen the Jedi overcome without failure,
he was relying on that pattern to continue.

 

"Wait in the council chamber until we return".

*Still waiting*

 

Hes not my hero. I just don't pass the evil buck onto him and choose to instead pass it where it belongs. To Anakin Skywalker and Palpatine.
You can say whatever you like about Mace Windu,or the man who played him, to your hearts content, but when you start distorting the storyline to justify your need to praise the Sith and damn the Jedi, I find it disturbing.
Taunting me with your soc by assuming who my heros are goes a long way in showing your true intentions behind this thread.
It's been said to you and your soc by many respected people on this thread, in many different ways ,that your theories, though inventive, ARE not valid.
If your aiming to cause frustration, and debate just to debate, you've succeeded admirably. If your intentions where to convince any mature individual on these boards that Mace was evil, and at fault for the entire fall of the Jedi order, you have not Succeeded.
In fact...the whole reason your thread has lasted this long is because it's filled with responses by people who have debunked your premise, and have to constantly respond to your ludicrous counter arguments. I myself am guilty of this right now..so I'm through. You can call my mamma a poodo face in your next "rhetort" and I still won't respond.
Oh ...and I'm still waiting for those lucas quotes.