Dark Confessions of Jedi Master Windu

Calm down. No need to get upset

We dont think Mace is evil. Just misguided. And believe me -it is 'we'. Dont continue down the same old path of calling me a sock or whatever. Thats pointless.

Im not the one who has brought this thread back up either. Many agree that Mace made bad choices. I just come forward and say so, like I have in threads about the other Jedi.

Mace Windu is probably one of the better characters of the PT. Thats why I enjoy talking about him - because he like the entire PT isnt cut and dry. Nothing is black and white in Star Wars anymore. Ironically im probably his biggest fan on these boards.

You make it sound as if I have an agenda to back the Sith and damn the jedi - I dont. Im just not gonna sit here and say how good the jedi are or how they never made mistakes.

The intention of this thread was to show what was happeing to the jedi order as mace is the epitomoy of it. I also looked into the character of mace and gave possible outcomes of where his story could lead.

I find it amusing how people get so upset when I discuss Mace. When I say he made a mistake or did something wrong. Everyone gets so agitated. Its a film! He's a character! I have my opinion!

Relax!

 

It wouldn't have mattered if the Jedi waited or not. It would've still come out the same. The Jedi would've marched in with Yoda and Obi-wan and gotten slaughtered by both Palpatine and Anakin and Order 66. Anakin still would've been left behind. He would still feel guilty and go to the rescue. Palpatine would've still attacked and force Anakin to choose sides. And he would start attacking the Jedi. Which would give Palpatine enough time to execute Order 66.

Mace was doing the right thing by confronting Palpatine when he did. He just missed out on Anakin's plight and underestimated the boy's issues. If Anakin had done what he was told, the odds on Mace dying would've dramatically decrease. Besides, his act wound up keeping Yoda and Obi-wan alive, which in turn allowed them to do what they had to do.

 

*hangs head*

Dismissing the OS in favor of wild theories was how the "YES" vote lost all of its credibility by the end of the last GREAT DEBATE General Shaitan......lol.

Like it or not.......the OS holds a decidely higher canon ranking than the fans' views.

And stop dancing around the heart of what the OS does say in favor of deceitfully portraying what you believe it doesn't say to your personal satisfaction.

And I'm NOT going to make a point other than that one about this sorry premise for a thread.....shame on you for creating this merely to put all of the collective sins of the entire Jedi Order on one man's back.

 

M_S and IMTG, why do you guys still refuse to accept this? "Do or Do Not," everybody was hosed!

Sure, Mace walked into the trap, and he made mistakes, but he has no culpability for what happened to the galaxy or the Jedi. The above can also be said of Obi-Wan, of Yoda, and of Anakin, for that matter, excepting the last part--Anakin did have culpability in the matter. Without Palpatine's machinations, however, none of the terrible things that went down would have happened.

Personally, in my tactical, Monday-morning quarterback opinion, Mace should have locked Palpy in a bearhug and lunged out the window with his wrinkled butt, altruistically sacrificing himself to save the galaxy, but then we'd have "End of Movies!" Lightning, prophecy, or otherwise, we know Palps can't fly. Alas, since he wasn't the Chosen One, Mace just wasn't ready to take that...errr... plunge (snicker!)

 

Its like that is it C76!

First of all, I dont go by what fans say - I go by GL says and what I see on screen. If I think it then I have can discuss it. thats the thing about all art - its open to interpretation.

My thoughts on Mace partaking in certain activitie IMO would have been an excellent way of wrapping up the mystery from AOTC. GL decided not to focus on that mystery and left it to EU so he could concentrate on Anakin stroy. A wise choice.

But the idea isnt as sorry as people make out. All I said was that Mace was a good man who believed the jedi were keepers of the peace - not soliders. He therefore understood the need for an army of the republic. As he respected Palpatine back then he could have supported the idea of the clones and given the authority from the jedi council.

But all this came from my anlysis of Windu's character. i saw him as a jedi who liks to get things done. Who doesnt like being pushes into a corner. Who will act first, think later. Thats how I percieved the character and I enojoyed watching him even more because of these percieved flaws.

Now obviously, things didnt go as far as I first suspected. But for me all those traits that I explained are seen in ROTS and IMO lead to his own demise.

Some say that he had no choice and the outcome would be the same. Well - we all have a choice and the future isnt set in stone. Mace had the chance to deal with the sitaution better and could have limited the damage, but he took Sidiou's bait and fell for the trap hook, line and sinker.

In regard to what is written on the OS - im sorry but I dont see it as proof. There are of course certain things that are fact and it is another POV that could be helpful. But there are many things that GL hasnt revealed about the film which are strangly explain in the OS databank. For me, its just another persons interpretation. I prefer to go by the films, then GL, then the actors. If all else fails(!) I go by the EU and then onto secondary opinions as found in the databank.

I dont know why people have such a problem with me stating that Mace Windu had flaws. I hate to think of the hate mail Matthew Stover recieves!

 

ANAKIN: "I sense Count Dooku..."

OBI-WAN: "I sense a trap."

ANAKIN: "Next move?"

OBI-WAN: "Spring the trap."

ANAKIN: "Ooh. Ooh no, Master. No, that would be bad. Very un-Jedi, please don't spring the trap, Master - it could bring down the whole Jedi order."

----

ACKBAR: "It's a trap!"...

...ACKBAR: "All craft prepare to retreat."

LANDO: "You won't get another chance at this, Admiral."

ACKBAR: "We have no choice, General Calrissian. Our cruisers can't repel firepower of that magnitude."

LANDO: "Han will have that shield down. We've got to give him more time."

ACKBAR: "Are you kidding? Did your daddy never tell you the tragedy of Mace Windu the Dark? He blundered into a trap trying to display irrevocable, chivilrous bravery; laying his life on the line for the greater good in spite of the dangers. He was wrong, man, just wrong. He brought down the Jedi order - we should just turn around and run from this Death Star. It's a trap! We should just send Palpatine some flowers, it is the only way to be truly brave and overcome evil in this saga!..."

----

 

Kit Fisto: Mace it could be a trap!
Mace: Huh?
Agen: A trap mace - we are walking into a trap!
Mace: Speak up!
Saesse: T.R.A.P
Mace: Let me just take out these ear plugs...
Sidious: Master Windu. I take it General Grievous has been destroyed then. I must say you're here sooner than expected...


Moral of the story: Mace didnt know it was a trap. He walked in blind.

Obi Wan knew it was a trap. Lando knew it was a trap.

Another difference is that Lando didnt have anything to lose - "You wont get another chance at this Admiral".

Mace had another choice. He just didnt see it.

 

Sure, Mace walked into the trap, and he made mistakes, but he has no culpability for what happened to the galaxy or the Jedi.

He played his own little part. of course its not all his fault! Im just saying he made mistake...just like you said. In other threads I have spoken about Kenobi and Yoda's flaws. But this is a mace thread. I like talking about Mace. So I post about Mace in here!

The above can also be said of Obi-Wan, of Yoda, and of Anakin, for that matter, excepting the last part--Anakin did have culpability in the matter. Without Palpatine's machinations, however, none of the terrible things that went down would have happened.

Fully agreed.

Personally, in my tactical, Monday-morning quarterback opinion, Mace should have locked Palpy in a bearhug and lunged out the window with his wrinkled butt, altruistically sacrificing himself to save the galaxy, but then we'd have "End of Movies!" Lightning, prophecy, or otherwise, we know Palps can't fly. Alas, since he wasn't the Chosen One, Mace just wasn't ready to take that...errr... plunge (snicker!)

 

Mace didn't have anything to lose, either, from my POV.

All the other choices led indirectly to the same outcome, M_S, "you must see this!"

 

Another difference is that Lando didnt have anything to lose - "You wont get another chance at this Admiral".
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Mace didn't have anything to lose, either, from my POV.

The jedi order, Anakin, his life but to name a few.


Master_Shaitan posted:
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Mace had another choice. He just didnt see it.
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All the other choices led indirectly to the same outcome, M_S, "you must see this!"

How can you say this! Its a story! Anything can be written. What we see is Mace Windu rushing into a situation without any advice, ignoring Anakin and falling for Sidious trap.

I could give you a million and one outcomes. Ok, maybe, just maybe it was impossible to stop Sidious at this point (though I disagree) but things didnt have to go as bad as they did.

Just imagine if the jedi managed to put Anakin right over Sidious - put doubt in his mind about his old mentor. Just imagine if they came up with a plan of their own. Just imagine if they figured out what Sidious was up to. Just imagine if they made the senate aware of what was going on.

The possibilities are endless.

"You must break through the fog of lies my enemies have created around you".

 

Nice of Lando not to tell Ackbar the Death Star was operational, then.

Okay, I'll explain my point.

Obi senses a trap.
The Rebel fleet flies into one blind.
In both cases they persevere in the face of adversity, because that is what heroes do.
Ackbar has nothing to lose?
Well, how about his own life, the entire Rebel fleet, in vain.

You suggestion is that Mace doesn't rush in based on the incling that it is possible there may be a trap.

Okay, so Ackbar and co stay at home and think it over.
Let's say one of them actually manages to work it out: "hey, that Death Star might actually be operational!"
Good thinking, fish face.
How do they profit by that? Now the Death Star comes and blows them to smithereens while they sit at home thinking about it.

Whether the trap exists or not, or whether they know about it or not, the right course of action is still to be brave and overcome the tyranny of the Empire.
And that entails rushing in to fight them head on.

So you say Mace had a choice?
Methinks you are basing this choice on what you think the trap is - some pipe dream about Mace not being able to ever beat Palpatine because the stars are aligned a certain way and the Dark Side is in ascendency or something like that.
You imply, and correct me if I'm wrong, that if Mace sat at home and thought it through, he would come to the conclusion that he could never beat Palpatine because he is becoming dark, or because he is fighting fire with fire.

Make sense?
No it doesn't, does it, because you know as well as I do that the trap is for Anakin, the trap is set to turn Anakin to the Dark Side of the Force.
That is the part Mace doesn't know about.
So now we are saying Mace is going to sit at home and figure out that Palpatine is planning to turn Anakin to the Dark Side, and that is what all this is about?
That is the least of Mace's worries.
Because surely he goes over there with three Jedi to arrest Palpatine WITHOUT ANAKIN before he can tempt Anakin to the Dark Side.
He asks Anakin to stay.

So I don't see what trap Mace is supposed to sense, and what course of action you intend him to take which would be "nobler"?
I don't see what he is supposed to figure out while he is sat around twiddling his thumbs, knowing that the Sith is out there with the galaxy by the balls already.

 

Why is it...that Anakin breaking a DIRECT order by not staying in the Temple never gets brought up? This story is about Anakins decent into darkness, not Mace Windus.
Some say Mace was so mean to to poor little annie...I say he had every right to be. Give me an example where Anakin has obeyed anyones orders{except for palpatines} to a tee.
If you have been watching the movies you will notice Anakin has a passion for defiance.
This is Master Windu' fault too?
No. Take the Padme factor out of ROTS...and I believe Anakin would have struck down Palpatine when he found out he was a Sith.
Lets not forget that the whole "rescue" of Palpatine in the beginning of the film was a ruse. How much credit does Anakin really deserve for that? They were really in no danger, because it was a trap laid out for Anakin. So he crash lands a ship...big deal. Maybe they should have made him a knight when he was ten because he won a podrace! To top it off ANAKIN walks into a trap and falls for it by killing Dooku. Was that Maces fault? no.
Point is....Mace would have given Anakin the respect he deserved when he earned it. Being the chosen one is an excuse. Nothing more. It's a laurel to float on by saying I don't have to follow orders, or the time honored traditions of a noble order because I am simply the greatest.
The more you focus on Anakins flaws, the less Shaitans theory about Mace makes sense. Example...a woman out late in a rough part of town gets raped and killed. Shaitan would tell you it was her fault because she shouldn't have been in that neighborhood. You wouldn't?
Then why say it was Maces fault for walking into a trap just because he knew the Sith were back again? Why say it was Maces fault for leaving Anakin behind because the boy was unpredictable? Why say that mace destroyed the Jedi order and the Republic by DYING for it?
Think about it.

 

Unfortunately, in that SW is a story, we already know the outcome, so the possiblities are not truly endless. I'm not saying it isn't fun to speculate and explore different courses of possibilities, actions, motives, and "what ifs," as it indeed is very entertaining and provokes good (and bad) thoughts!

Lol. If Mace HAD gone with the "dive-tackle" Palps out the window or show up to arrest him in Jedi Starfighters strategies, we'd have seen who had "UN-LIIM-ett-teddd POWERRRRRRR!!!!" then!

 

Okay, I'll explain my point.

I think you'd better...

Obi senses a trap.
The Rebel fleet flies into one blind.
In both cases they persevere in the face of adversity, because that is what heroes do.
Ackbar has nothing to lose?
Well, how about his own life, the entire Rebel fleet, in vain.

No - this was the rebels only chance. never again would the Empire be vulnerable. never again would they get this close to Sidious.

You suggestion is that Mace doesn't rush in based on the incling that it is possible there may be a trap.

That and many other reasons.

Okay, so Ackbar and co stay at home and think it over.
Let's say one of them actually manages to work it out: "hey, that Death Star might actually be operational!"
Good thinking, fish face.
How do they profit by that? Now the Death Star comes and blows them to smithereens while they sit at home thinking about it.

Not these analogies again...

Whether the trap exists or not, or whether they know about it or not, the right course of action is still to be brave and overcome the tyranny of the Empire.
And that entails rushing in to fight them head on.

There are alternatives to fighting.

So you say Mace had a choice?
Methinks you are basing this choice on what you think the trap is - some pipe dream about Mace not being able to ever beat Palpatine because the stars are aligned a certain way and the Dark Side is in ascendency or something like that.
You imply, and correct me if I'm wrong, that if Mace sat at home and thought it through, he would come to the conclusion that he could never beat Palpatine because he is becoming dark, or because he is fighting fire with fire.

Im not saying any of that. Sidious could be killed but its highly unlikely. Mace has just learned that Sidious is Palpatine. Shouldnt he actually mull over that for a bit, try and see what he has been up to, seek guidance from the force and talk to the other jedi? Im not saying he would be going evil. Im saying he would and does empower the dark side because he is out of his depth.

Im not going to reply to the rest because its based on a misinterpretation by you.

 

Take the Padme factor out of ROTS...and I believe Anakin would have struck down Palpatine when he found out he was a Sith

Agreed. Or perhaps if he discovered this later he would have killed Sidious?

So who on earth could have made him realise that Sidious was lying about this power? Hmmmmm

 

Well I think hes a doofus for seeing someone shooting enough freakin electricity out of their fingers to power a starcruiser, as helpless..or as you so are so fond of saying, unarmed.
Mace did tell him he was lying....Anakin once again...never listens to anyone important,or that actually CARES for him. Only homicidal dictators catch his earpiece.

 

Mace Windu was a


Goodnight all.

 

Yeah, but don't ignore the point, we were discussing the trap that they didn't see, like the one Mace didn't see.
You are saying Mace should not have rushed in to stop the Sith while he had the chance (just like the Rebels) simply because there was a trap.
If he didn't know there was a trap, then he didn't know there was a trap.
Period.
I was pointing out that sitting at home is not going to make that trap any more evident to him.
The Rebellion was mistaken because of Palpatine's machinations, and so was Mace - now, the rebels still did the right thing, in spite of the trap and so did Mace.

What are the reasons Mace should not confront the Sith then, and how many of those reasons are evident only to us the viewer?

That was not an analogy, it was an extrapolation.

Such as, oh letting Vader cut you in half and simulataneously becoming one with the Force?
Would that have worked in Mace's specific instance?

Fine, that's something you as a member of the audience may be justified in saying - but I don't see how Mace is supposed to come to that same conclusion: "It's highly unlikely I'll be able to arrest him - damn, what's on TV, may as well let the Sith take over the galaxy..."

As soon as he knows Palpatine is the Sith, he knows EXACTLY what he has been up to. That one piece of information was the missing piece of the puzzle.
The only thing he doesn't know is about Padmé, and how her death will turn Anakin into a traitor.
I mean what do you think Mace is going to learn from Anakin, when Anakin himself does not even acknowledge he is about to become a Sith?
That is the trap, is it not - that is why Mace fails, because Anakin turns.

So what more could Mace learn about the situation from quizzing Anakin and "mulling it over"?
Are you spying for him Anakin?
Are you a Sith?
Has he tried to tempt you?
Will you kill me?
Oh, and do you have a secret wife who you dream about dying in childbirth and has Palpatine promised you the power to save her and do you think that promise is enough to kill me over?

Even if he did manage to pull those questions out of the bag, he tells Anakin to stay in the temple anyway.

Empower the Dark Side?
Surely that's just trying to read too much into it?
He walks into a trap - I don't see how he consciously empowers Palpatine.
Ackbar "empowers" Palpatine by flying Home One into the range of the Death Star if you really want to look at it that way, but in reality he is just an innocent freedom fighter, trying to restore peace to the galaxy.
He is not a fool, he is not short-sighted, he is not mad, bad, crazy, full of the Dark Side, an agent of evil etc etc - he is just a guy in a trap.
He is doing the right thing and has ended up in a trap.
And in spite of the trap, he ends up on the winning side, and the winning side is the ligh side - so that proves that your premise (IE: walking into a trap enables the Dark Side) is blatantly false.

If Mace had foreknowledge of the trap then OF COURSE he might do things differently.
But what has that got to do with anything? He has no idea about the trap and he has no way of finiding out about it - otherwise it is no trap and no surprise at all.
It's really just a non-s

 

IMTG, unless you're joking or just trying to stir the pot, we're reduced to nonsense now...

"Surely you can do better!"

 

IMG and MS, I need "both" of you to calm down.

 

IMG and MS, I need "both" of you to calm down.

We are calm. I suggest its the other people that need to calm down. I dont see why people get so heated when we talk about Mace.

And I hope the "both" comment isnt suggesting that ITG is my sock because I consider that trolling.

*Tells ITG to calm down*

"No response"

 

I think Windu is just meant, as a character, to be representative of the flaws of the Jedi Order. Lucas didn't want to diminish fans' love for Yoda too much (moreso Obi-Wan), and no other Jedi had enough screen time to matter.

Having said that, I thought that while Mace was naive in some of the things he said ('I do not think the Sith could have returned without us knowing', etc.), by the confrontation in the Office, he was well and truly trapped by Sidious. Were I Mace, I would have gone to kill Sidious too - he was far too dangerous to let live if you (believed) you had the opportunity to kill him. The time to stop Sidious had passed.

Where the Jedi as a whole failed was in not having the wisdom or insight to see what was happening to Anakin with his dealings with Palpatine, even though they suspected something was up. I think they all failed to reach into Anakin's soul and treat the malady at its source. And they're supposed to be wise and in tune with people ('Much fear I sense in you'). Mace was not alone in this regard although he is given the most screen time in confrontation with Anakin. But I think that's simply because Lucas didn't want Obi-Wan or Yoda diminished, and none of the other Jedi really mattered as far as the plot / script went.

 

Me neither, but it's pretty interesting and can make for some good dialogue! I'm prone to take either side of the argument just to see how much fun we can have!

What do we think makes Mace such a "love him or hate him" character? Any thoughts?

 

I agree with that jawastew, though I must say I did think he had other choices. I understand why he made that choice and many would make that same decision.

The love him or hate him question is good:

I love him as a character but only because of his flaws, if that makes any sense! I like the fact that he reacts when pushed into a corner.

I dont think he should react in the way he does, but he wouldnt be the same character in my eyes if he didnt.

 

Sadly I think race and the perception of racism is the root of this.

Even though I haven't seen anyone saying 'Blacks should not be allowed to be Jedi', I think if you don't like Windu or comment on any of his flaws (real or perceived), there is a certain reverse-racism element that will hold you bigotted.