Dark Confessions of Jedi Master Windu

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Master_Shaitan, Apr 14, 2005.

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  1. JawaStew Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2005
    star 3
    It's possible he could have caught the ball in the Office - but mostly I think it was too late. I think his disciplinarian treatment of Anakin and Anakin's tantrums had basically sealed the deal. That might have been okay had Anakin not had an ego-stroking confidant in Sidious...
  2. Master_Shaitan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    6^^^

    The sad thing is jawa stew, that you may be right about that.

    I get accused of hating Mace because I said he has flaws.

    I must really hate sidious then...:p
  3. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    I don't really love or hate Mace.
    And I don't really get "heated" when people discuss him.
    I'm interested in the story, and I don't see Mace shouldering as much of the story as this thread and others seem to be claiming.
    I'm just calling the film how I see it, based on what is important to the bigger picture, rather than honing in on one character or plot strand and trying to attach meaning or come up with some profound theory that simply isn't there.

    It still just reeks of Pi to me:

    "If you want to find the number two sixteen in the world, you'll be able to pull it out of anywhere. Two hundred and sixteen steps from your street comer to your front door. Two hundred and sixteen seconds you spend riding on the elevator. When your mind becomes obsessed with anything, it will filter everything else out and find examples of that thing everywhere." - Sol, Pi
  4. Master_Shaitan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    It's possible he could have caught the ball in the Office - but mostly I think it was too late. I think his disciplinarian treatment of Anakin and Anakin's tantrums had basically sealed the deal. That might have been okay had Anakin not had an ego-stroking confidant in Sidious...

    jawastew - What do you think about the idea that Mace could have spoken to Anakin more and got to the route of the problem before confronting Sidious? Also, do you think contacting the other jedi would have helped? ALSO! Do you think Mace listened to the force in making his decision?
  5. Master_Shaitan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    "If you want to find the number two sixteen in the world, you'll be able to pull it out of anywhere. Two hundred and sixteen steps from your street comer to your front door. Two hundred and sixteen seconds you spend riding on the elevator. When your mind becomes obsessed with anything, it will filter everything else out and find examples of that thing everywhere."

    So your implying that I have a need to find flaws in Mace? Why would this be?

    Cant you just see that I have an opinion of Mace based on what I have seen on screen, heard from SLJ and read in the novels?


    "All the truths we cling to depend greatly upon our own point of view" - Obi Wan, ROTJ.


  6. darth_zom Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2005
    star 1
    Most unfortunate if that is the case, JS. For me, Mace, even with his flaws, is one of my favourite PT characters. I like his powers, abilities, and "take no ****" attitude, yet I dislike the stoic nature of the PT Jedi, including their complacence with their position and their arrogance and other faults. Perhaps this is one of the reasons Qui-Gon is also one of my favorite characters in the PT, despite being such a contrast to Mace.
  7. Master_Shaitan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Most unfortunate if that is the case, JS. For me, Mace, even with his flaws, is one of my favourite PT characters. I like his powers, abilities, and "take no ****" attitude, yet I dislike the stoic nature of the PT Jedi, including their complacence with their position and their arrogance and other faults. Perhaps this is one of the reasons Qui-Gon is also one of my favorite characters in the PT, despite being such a contrast to Mace.

    I agree entirely.

    I must admit, I used to find Qui Gon to be one of the least interesting of the PT characters. I've certainly changed my mind on that.
  8. darth_zom Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2005
    star 1
    Indeed, he's one of the most interesting from a character standpoint. It's ironic that his methods and teachings lay much of the foundation for the ways Jedi later in the OT and EU NJO. Obviously, he's one of the most "powerful" too, since it is he that manages to "cheat death" and not the Sith.

    Still, I have to give Mace credit. I believe that one of the paths to Jedi Mastery is being able to skirt darkness without letting it consume you.
  9. Master_Shaitan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Still, I have to give Mace credit. I believe that one of the paths to Jedi Mastery is being able to skirt darkness without letting it consume you.

    I couldnt really say that this is what Mace does. There are moments of aggression that he seems to be able to keep under wraps though.

    Every jedi needs to understand, face and overcome their dark side.
  10. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Not really, you know I don't mean any disrespect.

    But you also know that I know that this Mace theory of yours started long before we even knew the vaguest plot details of ROTS.
    So I find it hard to believe that your opinion is informed by the movie, novel or whatever, rather it seems to me to be informed by an agenda you had convinced yourself of long before the facts were revealed, and are determined to singularly pursue - even after bit by bit of you original theory has been chipped away by hard facts.
    It does seem like you are clutching at straws a bit.

    But that is just the truth my POV tells me to cling to I guess...

  11. Master_Shaitan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    But you also know that I know that this Mace theory of yours started long before we even knew the vaguest plot details of ROTS.
    So I find it hard to believe that your opinion is informed by the movie, novel or whatever, rather it seems to me to be informed by an agenda you had convinced yourself of long before the facts were revealed, and are determined to singularly pursue - even after bit by bit of you original theory has been chipped away by hard facts.
    It does seem like you are clutching at straws a bit.

    But that is just the truth my POV tells me to cling to I guess...


    I'd say TPM and AOTC were there to form my opinions on Mace. I know im not the only one that thinks this way.

    Stover represents him as being a jedi that skirts the dark side. Even in the ROTS computer game he is portrayed as highly arrogant, aggressive and vengeful - and im not even going that far!

    Yes, i formed my main opinions about Mace after watching AOTC but nothing that came out after that changed my view on what type of man he was. I dont have a hidden agenda here. Im just a big fan of mace who likes to explore his character.

  12. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    With all due respect, Shaitan, you once claimed Mace Windu was a Sith who ordered the Clone Army of the Republic.

    Now you say he is a Jedi who, by acting against the Sith is actually empowering and feeding the Dark Side of the Force.

    Can you not see how, well, incredible that must seem to some of us, especially now you claim you have not changed your opinion?


    Well, that sounds about right - you are exploring his character indeed.
    To be honest there is not much there to explore, so I can see why you are trying to flesh it out...
  13. Master_Shaitan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    With all due respect, Shaitan, you once claimed Mace Windu was a Sith who ordered the Clone Army of the Republic.

    Cant remember that one GiG. If i ever did say that, which I cant rememer doing so, it was before I actually sat down and really thought about his character. It was after analysing AOTC and listening to the opinions in novels that i began to get a real insight into who I thought Mace really was.

    Now you say he is a Jedi who, by acting against the Sith is actually empowering and feeding the Dark Side of the Force.

    Yep.

    Can you not see how, well, incredible that must seem to some of us, especially now you claim you have not changed your opinion?

    No. I think he rushed in. Didnt act on knowledge. Didnt understand the situation around him and made a bad decision. He endded up empowering the dark side cause.



    Master_Shaitan posted:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I dont have a hidden agenda here. Im just a big fan of Mace who likes to explore his character.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Well, that sounds about right - you are exploring his character indeed.
    To be honest there is not much there to explore, so I can see why you are trying to flesh it out...


    that maybe true. But I once said that i thought Mace acted too much for his love of the republic. Then Stover comes along and says the exact same thing. The films gave me an opinion of mace and i was able to further that. Im not saying its difinitive. Its just my opinion of it and because of that i find his character more interesting.
  14. obi1andreasen79 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2005
    star 4
    I remember Shaitans mace/sith theories clearly. I also remember you using Stovers "Mace has an attachment to the republic" as the basis for later arguments.
    No offense MS but please don't act like you thought of it before Stover did. You know in your heart that isn't so.
  15. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Well, respect.
    Have a nice night...


    - time for my bed I think.
  16. DS_Emp_Viper Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2001
    star 4
    Whats the dark confessions of Master Windu? He cant read.

    There that just about sums it up.


    "Uhh give me a sec here(flips paper), in the name of the gaaallaaacctttiiccc Seeenaoit, yourrr unnderr arrest shancler.


    But too all seriousness I dont think Windu was purposely giving Palpatine more and more power, but hes just like Admiral Ozzel, "Hes as clumsy as he is stupid"
  17. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    Guys, step back and take a breather from this. I could get locked if the arguing doesn't stop.
  18. Master_Shaitan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    I remember Shaitans mace/sith theories clearly. I also remember you using Stovers "Mace has an attachment to the republic" as the basis for later arguments.
    No offense MS but please don't act like you thought of it before Stover did. You know in your heart that isn't so.


    I respectfully disagree. I remember when i read it for the first time. I used to say quite a bit that Mace acted on his emotions. Stovers description gave me more confidence in being able to talk about it of course. But I certainly saw it before reading about it. When I said MAce wanted the clone army I said so because he wanted to protect the republic.
    Stover went on to describe the republic as Mace's love (much like anakins love/attachment for padme). I explored that avenue and found that it tied up many loose ends regarding mace windu.
  19. obi1andreasen79 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2005
    star 4
    Since you put it that way...fair enough.
  20. JawaStew Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2005
    star 3
    Jaysus I can't keep up!

    MS: I would say Mace thought he was listening to the Force - but I think the Jedi were mostly flying blind toward the end (which may help explain why Tiin and Kolar appeared to be literally blind in the Office duel).

    I think by the time Sidious chose to reveal himself he realised he had the Jedi in check and was one move from mate - and the Jedi didn't even realise it. Sidious is very good at forcing people to do what he wants without them realising it - and Windu was the most perfect example (Forces him to come for arrest by revealing himself, forces Windu to attempt to kill him by using the lightning, forces Anakin to intervene because of Padme).

    I think Windu lost sight of the Force, like the rest of them (including Yoda) due to the shroud of the Dark Side. They needed to spend more time recognising and unravelling Anakin's inner turmoil, but failed to - and Sidious used it against them.
  21. Master_Shaitan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    A most agreeable viewpoint there Jawastew. I too believe the jedi mishandled Anakin.
  22. JawaStew Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2005
    star 3
    I just realised how many times I wrote realised in my last post.
  23. obi1andreasen79 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2005
    star 4
    In the midst of a war...I can understand why the Jedi couldn't be there to baby Anakin all the time. That was really Obi wans job...and well...Anakin never listened to him either. Even Yoda tries to talk sense into him...but it' not what he wants to hear.
    The chosen one the boy may be...but that dosen't mean there has to be an effort made by all jedi to deal with Anakins problems.
    They expected from him what they expect from every other Jedi...the deepest commitment and to control their feelings. The fact Anakin couldn't live up to these standards should not fall on the shoulders of the teachers...but the student.

  24. Master_Shaitan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    The fact Anakin couldn't live up to these standards should not fall on the teachers...but the student.

    Anakin did fail the jedi. But IMO the Jedi shouldnt have put the same expectations on anakin as they did every other jedi. Anakin had a background. He had strong attachments. He had tasted the life outside of the order. He needed to be trained differently - and Kenobi wasnt the man to do it.
  25. COMMANDER76 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 4
    *bows*

    It seems to have worked General Shaitan.....
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