Dark Confessions of Jedi Master Windu

You know guys, we have a ton of threads on this. Is thread about Anakin and Mace?

 

Then who was...Yoda? possibly. IMO...Obi Wan did do good job, because of who his master was. Obi was kind to anakin and did understand where he came from. He was also very strict with him at times but thats because he needed to be.
The Jedi took him in,trained him,gave him the honor of being a Jedi. They warned him about the dangers of attatchment and of the path to the darkside.
In short...they prepared him well.....it was his selfish decisions that brought upon disaster.
I agree rhonderoo..we should lock this and take it to the official threads. The darkside issue of mace has been discussed to death I'm afraid.

 

We're just discussing the failings of the jedi Rhondroo which directly link to Mace's character. I for one believe that mace in many ways epitomises the flaws of the jedi order. Thats why we are discussing the jedi's mistakes and what that did for Anakin.

 

Then who was...Yoda? possibly. IMO...Obi Wan did do good job, because of who his master was.

Kenobi was half way there but he was inexperienced. He also followed the jedi rules without question. In the end he was just like the other masters. The scene that says it all is when he tells Anakin of his assignment to spy on Palpatine. He knew it wasnt right but it was an order from the jedi so kenobi followed it.

Obi was kind to anakin and did understand where he came from. He was also very strict with him at times but thats because he needed to be.

I think his guidance of Anakin was poor. He was either too much like the dogmatic jedi on the council or was like Anakins friend.

The Jedi took him in,trained him,gave him the honor of being a Jedi. They warned him about the dangers of attatchment and of the path to the darkside.
In short...they prepared him well.....it was his selfish decisions that brought upon disaster.

Anakin used to give with no thought of reward. Something went wrong somewhere. Palpatine got to him. but the jedi didnt train him properly. kenobi admits it himself.

I agree rhonderoo..we should lock this and take it to the official threads. The darkside issue of mace has been discussed to death I'm afraid.

I dont see the harm. Its relevant to mace.

 

It's mo mess. the Sith Returned , as you said Anakin did all those things , and garnered some faith. so leave him behind?. not good. they have no choice but take him. who else is supposed to confront the Sith, if not anakin. chosen one or not, he's the best candidate. period. he's still a Jedi at this point. it's not hard to see that.

In response to you Obiwankoti (forgive any misspellings) it's easy to say that NOW, but my point is when he approached anakin and felt anakin's power in the force, how is it that one would be....COULD be searching for the chosen one of a prophecy which at the current time, is null and void? i mean, IF there are no sith, which was widely believed to be the case, the prophecy technically, SHOULDNT be applicable, right? now, perhaps by the time they left tattooine, he was convinced by the re-emergence of the sith, but he was already hellbent on training anakin before being faced by maul. regardless of all of that, perhaps windu wasnt going to rely on a "shaky" (at best) anakin skywalker to fulfill his destiny, IF said skywalker wasnt even sure of his destiny, wasnt prepare to fulfill it, AND was totally conflicted in his stance and place within the grand scheme of things. AS IT TURNED OUT, mace windu was correct in not bringing anakin along. he WAS conflicted, DIDNT fulfill his destiny, and proved NOT to be what the jedi had expected of him. perhaps there was too much pressure placed/heaped on him from the beginning.

 

It's mo mess. the Sith Returned , as you said Anakin did all those things , and garnered some faith. so leave him behind?. not good. they have no choice but take him. who else is supposed to confront the Sith, if not anakin. chosen one or not, he's the best candidate. period. he's still a Jedi at this point. it's not hard to see that.

In response to you Obiwankoti (forgive any misspellings) it's easy to say that NOW, but my point is when he approached anakin and felt anakin's power in the force, how is it that one would be....COULD be searching for the chosen one of a prophecy which at the current time, is null and void?

That was my point about the Prophecy being Common knowledge among Jedi. QuiGon was just more in tune with the Living Force than Other Jedi, and Anakin was a living Embodiment of the Force. QuiGon saw what the other's never really did. he also was the first to retain his identity as well.

i mean, IF there are no sith, which was widely believed to be the case, the prophecy technically, SHOULDNT be applicable, right?

yes, that is true. way back in TPM. but not now. they have been searching for the Sith for years by the time of ROTS. so the Prophecy is VERY VALID. and widely known as well.

AS IT TURNED OUT, mace windu was correct in not bringing anakin along. he WAS conflicted, DIDNT fulfill his destiny, and proved NOT to be what the jedi had expected of him. perhaps there was too much pressure placed/heaped on him from the beginning.

He could'nt fulfill his destiny, because he was left behind. He discovered who Sideous was. he went and reported it to Mace , he wa behaving exactly how the Chosen one was supposed to . he was confronting the Sith. and Mace made him "stay home". Mace only had fellings about Anakin. that's it, so he should not have put his feelings before the Prphecy. anybody could see that Anakin did do two things right He discovered who Sideous was, and he went to Mace with it. Mace messed up. obviously

 

Almost none of the Jedi put their faith in the Prophecy, because of what history recorded about the demise of the Sith. Once they realize that the Sith are back and that Anakin appears to be the Chosen One, they start to put faith in the boy and his destiny. Nothing's for certain, but they know it might be true given recent events. By ROTS, Mace and Yoda are doubting it, given Anakin's current emotional state. Only Obi-wan still has unwavering faith in Anakin, as Qui-gon's faith has become his own. Mace's attempt at destroying Palpatine was simply a last resort, given what he knew of the situation and the possible outcome if Palpatine did surrender. It's only stopped because of Anakin's selfishness and emotional outburst. Nothing more. It wasn't destiny on either man's part.

It wouldn't have mattered if Anakin went with Mace or not, the situation would still go as we saw it. Sidious would still attack the Posse. Anakin would still be conflicted. Mace would still die. In fact, the scene was originally filmed with Anakin there in the first place. And when the time came, he reacted the same way. Lucas was told by his friends that it shouldn't have been that easy and what we see now is the end result of listening to them.

But I digress. We're talking about Mace and not Anakin.

 

It wouldn't have mattered if Anakin went with Mace or not, the situation would still go as we saw it. Sidious would still attack the Posse. Anakin would still be conflicted. Mace would still die. In fact, the scene was originally filmed with Anakin there in the first place. And when the time came, he reacted the same way. Lucas was told by his friends that it shouldn't have been that easy and what we see now is the end result of listening to them.

Only in terms of the saga - obviously these people had to die and what happened had to do so to tie in. But everything must be subservient tot the story.

By saying what you have above you are taking away all choice. You are saying that Anakins turn and The Siths rise are inevitable - that no matter what anyone does they cant stop it. I disagree entirely with this.

I think the fact that Lucas found it neccessary to reshoot the scene shows that Anakinc conflict was vital - it shows he wasnt all bad, that he had been tricked and that he wasnt sure what to do. I believe, as someone said above, that Anakin did his duty. Despite everything he actually managed to go to mace and tell him about Palpatine. This is where I think Mace goes wrong. I think he should have then got to the bottom of the conflict he see's in Anakin. Not only that, he should have sought advice from other people. How long would it take to contact Yoda? How difficult is it to sit down and listen to the force in a calm state? Why throw out the prophecy simply because you have a few misgivings about Anakins emotional state?

I just think the way it plays on screen shows Macwe rushing into the situation blind. There are a million and one scenarios of what could have happened (OT aside). But things had to happen as they did to tie in with the OT. But that doesnt mean we should just see it as the inevitable fate of the characters.

 

i second master shaitan.

you erase all possibility of a different development if you say nothing would have changed had mace not taken anakin with him.

it woul have required some effort on his part, true, to actually get down to the source of anakin's confusion and it might have led to a different result. anakin might have seen how easily palps takes out three jedi masters and would have given the whole turning a second thought. his loyalties might have been clearer then, when he does confront mace in palps' office it's very muddy. mace has never shown him any respect or anything, i don't think it was all that hard to turn against him, whereas it might have been different had he come there with mace and confronted palps right there.

think about it, not much of palps' story would have held any water then, he would have to think of a new scenario on the spot.

all that said, by the time of ROTS anakin is pretty far gone. as i said, it would have required actual effort on their part to have him react differently.

and i find it very important that GL reshot the turning to flesh out the conflict for the audience. if there is no conflict there would be no use for the PT as a whole, you'd know from the getgo that this boy is gonna turn no matter what, the first instance he is offered to work for a rival company.

 

Anakin still believes Padme is going to die and that there are things about the Force he must learn in order to save her life. Palpatine has him believe only the dark side can unlock the knowledge Anakin is seeking.

NO MATTER WHAT, Anakin is going to protect the one person that can help him save Padme. The Jedi are not the ones, according to Anakin - PALPATINE is. Anakin is going to come between the Jedi and Palpatine in order to protect the Sith knowledge... period.

"I have what I call two sharp "right turns" in the movie and they are very hard to deal with. For the audience, it's a real jerk, because you're going along and then somebody yanks you in a different direction. Anakin turning to the dark side and killing Mace is a very hard right, because we're dealing with things that aren't so obvious. The audience knows Anakin is going to turn to the dark side, but the things that he's struggling with are so subtle that it may be hard for people to understand why his obsession to hold onto Padme is so strong."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith.

 

Thats what happens ETC - Anakin would of course protect Palpatine. But would he if Mace had spoken to him before hand? What if Mace put doubt in Anakins mind about what Palpatine could do? Just imagine if Kenobi or Yoda came back to talk some sense into him!

Anakin goes to the office to ensure Palpatine lives - not betray his friends. He is still conflicted. Its Palpatine that makes the situation one dimensional. He sets up a situation where Anakin has to make a direct choice - Jedi or Sith. Seeing that everything has gone as Sidious said it would and seeing Anakin trusts him he will only make one choice.

Its just my opinion that it looks as though Mace rushes in. He is told of the truth. He tells Anakin to stay behind and he goes after Sidious immediatly. I thinks its why George cut out the scene of Mace telling Yoda - he wanted it to look like Mace went in too quickly and fell for Sidious' trap - it needed to look like Mace's choice alone. thats what I love about Mace. Maybe Yoda or Kenobi would have hung back and thought about it a bit more. Mace felt pushed into a corner and went to get the job done - its brave and courageous - but ultimately flawed.

*Perhaps Mace didnt want to be told to take Anakin with him?

 

Shaitan, Anakin isn't going to tell the Jedi about Padme. He's a liar. He already got some advice from Yoda and he didn't like it. His whole agenda is veiled. He told Padme he would not involve Obi-Wan.

Mace Windu talking to Anakin isn't going to make a difference. I mean - talk to him about what? The Jedi have no idea what his plight is - he's hidden it from them all.

We've all shown you that "hanging back" to think about it isn't going to solve Anakin's immediate problem. Nor is it going to change the fact that with all the Jedi back on Coruscant, Palpatine can just execute Order 66 under the pretense that the Jedi were conspiring against the Republic.

Palptine's plan could have been executed in any number of ways, but he had to do it before news of Grievous' death hit the waves.

I'm quite sure he even considered the possibility that Anakin may not even tell the Council right away, but he would still need to pressure Anakin with Order 66 - one way or another it was going to happen and no one is going to talk sense into Anakin about a problem he is concealing.

 

Bzz, bzz - went there, tried that.

77 INT. CORUSCANT-JEDI TEMPLE-YODAS QUARTERS-DAY

YODA and ANAKIN sit in Yoda 's room, deep in thought.

YODA: Premonitions . . . premonitions . . . Hmmmm . . . these visions you have . . .

ANAKIN: They are of pain, suffering, death . . .

YODA: Yourself you speak of, or someone you know?

ANAKIN: Someone . . .

YODA: . . . close to you?

ANAKIN: Yes.

YODA: Careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin. The fear of loss is a path to the dark side.

ANAKIN: I won't let these visions come true, Master Yoda.

YODA: Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is.

ANAKIN: What must I do, Master Yoda?

YODA: Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.

The Jedi - Mace, Yoda or any other Jedi - was NEVER going to satisfy Anakin, because the Jedi were NEVER going to LIE to Anakin and say that Padmé could be saved.
Only Palpatine would do that.
He could sit and talk with Mace till the cows come home - he is still not going to hear what he wants to hear.

 

Exactly, GiG. Anakin didn't like the advice he got from Yoda. It's not going to be any different from Windu or Kenobi. And I reiterate: Anakin is veiling his dilemma from them.

Also, let's not forget that both Palpatine and Anakin are facing a very short timetable. Palpatine must act immediately once Grievous is killed and Anakin has precious little time to learn the secret to stop Padme from dying in childbirth.

 

Though I think the Anakin sentiments are all good and what not, I feel they are more relevant for other threads... Back to the primary stream of this thread...

Peace, people! We don't want to get to the point where the MODS look to lock every thread with Mace in the subject because dialogue becomes too embroiled.

Anyhow, it's funny, M_S, how we share some of the same character perceptions and favorites yet disagree on so many of the finer points. That's the beauty of these boards, we can agree to disagree.

I always saw this as directed at Kenobi, as Yoda trying to illustrate to Kenobi that many of Anakin's traits Obi was struggling with were prevalent in another "very young" Jedi in the not-so-distant past ("Qui-Gon's defiance, I sense in you.")

I suppose Mace should have just chopped off both his arms and legs... Oh wait, then Jango still could've used that jetpack missle against the Jedi! (or BIT their legs off) I always took Dooku's "shock" as more of an "oh, crap, I might have to do battle myself!"

Using this logic, I suppose when he came to the rescue, Yoda should have laid siege to the arena to negotiate a settlement instead of bombarding it with his Clone onslaught. Had Mace waited, would Obi, Ani, and Padme still been alive by the time someone intervened?

.....

Arrogant, Mace may be, but I wouldn't say he "epitomizes" the weaknesses of the Jedi. His is just a summary character anecdote for their "downfall." (snicker!) I think Mace is quite well-founded in what you feel are his "Beliefs." To me, he does successfully skirt the darkside through his Vapaad techniques, and comes awfully close to both defeating and killing Palpatine.

Mace: "If that meddling kid Skywalker hadn't interfered, I'd have gotten away with it TOO!"

You seem to be saying he "Believes" he can do the above things, and your summary points suggest that he should've doubted and second guessed himself, and then waited. I think we've already been down that road:

"Commander Cody, we've had to step up our schedule...Execute Order...66"

 

"When you get down to where we are right now in the story, you basically get somebody who?s going to make a pact with the Devil, and it?s going to be a pact with the Devil that says, ?I want the power to save somebody from death. I want to be able to stop them from going to the river Styx, and I need to go to a god for that, but the gods won?t do it, so I?m going to go down to Hades and get the Dark Lord to allow me to have this power that will allow me to save the very person I want to hang on to.?

--George Lucas, quoted in J. Windolf, ?Star Wars: The Last Battle,? Vanity Fair, 2005

Anakin went to the Jedi and they turned him down. So he's going with the winning side, in this case, the one man who says it can be done.

"Try and increase how uncomfortable you feel as the shot goes on. Try to think back on the Darth Plagueis story-run that through your head. Take it one step further: you realize that by telling the Jedi about Palpatine being a Sith that Padme is going to die. Basically, you just killed her."

--George Lucas To Hayden Christensen, The Making Of ROTS.

Anakin realizes that by telling the Jedi, he ensured Padme's death. He more or less made his decision, he just has yet to act upon it.

 

And do you seriously believe that this advise, "Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose" is effective to help someone with severe, nearly psychotic emotional problems? If it was, all psychotherapists in the world were dispensible and could quit their job. Why do you think people with serious emotional problems attend extended, several months or even years lasting psychotherapies?

There wasn't even an advise how he should approach this "training to let go of his fear to lose" something that's important to him. Much less anything resembling that what he needed in the state he was in - which was nothing less than a professional psychotherapy.

 

I think it has more to do with motivation. He doesn't want to betray the Jedi regardless of what he thinks they may have done. It's the idea that doing his duty and telling the Jedi about Palpatine like he was supposed to got his wife killed. He's coming to terms with the fact that he should just stand down, let go and let destiny decide as Yoda had advised. But he can't do that. He knows when he leaves the Jedi Temple he is going to do the wrong thing. He's just made up his mind that the wrong thing is preferable to life without his wife.

 

What is this thread even about anymore?

What does any of this have to do with Mace's "Dark Confessions" (which sounds like a bad EU novel waiting to happen).

 

I don't know, but it's starting to sound just like all of the other threads surrounding Mace...

 

Hey there M.Yoshi. I feel your pain. Been trying to steer it back towards the original stream myself too.

 

Well, I'm not sure whether you are agreeing with me or trying to support the idea that Mace is "wrong", but my thoughts on the points you raise:

Well, yeah, Yoda's advice is good advice.
The saga proves this - Anakin does, in the end, realise that his own selfish desires don't ammount to a hill of beans in this crazy world.
He does learn what "letting go" really means.
And that, funnily enough, brings balance to the Force.

Eventually, Anakin finally takes Yoda's advice, and that saves the galaxy.

And what state was he in, as far as the Jedi were concerned - they don't know what we know?
For all we know this is the first time he has confided in the Jedi.
As far as I am concerned, Yoda is handing out the same advice that the Jedi have handed out to troubled pupils for 1,000 generations to great effect.

How do you approach letting go?
You let go - you either do it or you don't, there is no try.
You can't be forced into accepting death, it is a state of mind - like I said, it is something 1,000 generations of Jedi could handle, bar 20.
Either you accept the wisdom of your Masters, or you presume you know better... or you fall for someone else's b******t manipulations.
Anakin is wrong, he falls for Palpatine's b******t manipulations, he does think he knows better.
He doesn't.

 

I'm simply stating that Yoda's advise was good in theory but not in practice.

Not quite. In the end, Anakin didn't "let go of attachments" but consciously sacrificed his own life, because it no longer meant anything to him.

Oh, come on, please don't join the "the Jedi are ignorant fools" club. From what I've read of your posts, you're better than that.

Again, if things were that simple, there would be no profession called "psychotherapists".

 

One of the things i am finding hard to read is the notion by some viewers that the jedi order should have treated anakin with cotton-gloves while treating everyone else within the order as a jedi padawan/knight/master. anakin, as a jedi knight, is subject to the same temptations and desires that any other human jedi has faced in the past. as GIG said, the sage advice of master yoda has been employed for over a thousand generations of jedi before.

 

Except that Anakin is a special case. He is the chosen one and there is a lot at stake with him, obviously, from what we see in ROTS. He was older when he began the training (yes, I agree, so was Luke) and he was put in the position of seeing his mother die right before his eyes. Again, I'm not trying to say Anakin is not to blame for his actions, just that the Jedi would have been better served had they paid closer attention to Anakin, since the fate of the Galaxy and the balance of the force depended on him. Even if Anakin did face the same temptations as all the other jedi, he's a bit more important. Palpatine realizes this. And that's why he's able to exploit the Jedi in the fashion that he does.