Dark Confessions of Jedi Master Windu

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Master_Shaitan, Apr 14, 2005.

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  1. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    There hasn't been a "Chosen one" for a thousand generations. Have you ever read the Novel, Chapter 21 specifically? - I've only got the german translation, so I must back-translate and it won't fit the original text, but nevertheless:
    "too old I was", Yoda said, "too inflexible. Too arrogant to see that the old way is not the only way. The Jedi I've trained, supposed to become like the Jedi that had trained me, hundreds of years ago. But those aged Jedi, in another time they lived. Changed the Galaxy has. Changed the Jedi-Order has not. Not allowed it to change, I have."
    and later on:
    "The Jedi training is not the only source of self discipline."

    Anakin was the Chosen One in more than one sense. And one of these "senses" was to make the Jedi realize that their own order and teachings had to change.
  2. lordmorpheus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2004
    star 4
    Except that Anakin is a special case. He is the chosen one and there is a lot at stake with him, obviously, from what we see in ROTS. He was older when he began the training (yes, I agree, so was Luke) and he was put in the position of seeing his mother die right before his eyes. Again, I'm not trying to say Anakin is not to blame for his actions, just that the Jedi would have been better served had they paid closer attention to Anakin, since the fate of the Galaxy and the balance of the force depended on him. Even if Anakin did face the same temptations as all the other jedi, he's a bit more important. Palpatine realizes this. And that's why he's able to exploit the Jedi in the fashion that he does.[/quote]

    ok fett, i'll buy that for a dollar!!! of course, had anakin been more in tune with his jedi training and being a jedi (is there a better example of jedi-hood than obi wan kenobi?) then the temptations he eventually fell to would not have even been an issue. for the record though, i highly doubt it is proceedure to treat any one jedi differently than any other. remember, they serve the force, not anakin, nor each other.


    There hasn't been a "Chosen one" for a thousand generations. Have you ever read the Novel, Chapter 21 specifically? - I've only got the german translation, so I must back-translate and it won't fit the original text, but nevertheless:
    "too old I was", Yoda said, "too inflexible. Too arrogant to see that the old way is not the only way. The Jedi I've trained, supposed to become like the Jedi that had trained me, hundreds of years ago. But those aged Jedi, in another time they lived. Changed the Galaxy has. Changed the Jedi-Order has not. Not allowed it to change, I have."
    and later on:
    "The Jedi training is not the only source of self discipline."

    Anakin was the Chosen One in more than one sense. And one of these "senses" was to make the Jedi realize that their own order and teachings had to change.



    ok, i'll also buy that, BUT the jedi training IS a source of self discipline...one that anakin never truly embraced. that is NOT the fault of the order. i think that anakin is a shining example of why the order doesnt take people so old to train. of course, the opposite end of the spectrum is luke. so THEREFORE, is the order to blame for luke's faults? i mean, he did what he was trained to do.
  3. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Okay, but my point is that this opinion is only formed by the audience being privvy to Anakin's slaughter of the Tuskens, his marriage, his conversations with Palpatine, the knowledge of the fact that Palpatine is a Sith (well, unless you are stupid, that is :p ) the dreams, who features in them, the children, Anakin's flaws etc etc.
    That's our priviledged point of view.

    Put yourself in Yoda's shoes.
    From his point of view, he is giving advice on premonitions which he has probably been giving for 800 years.

    But that sounds like the ultimate act of letting go to me.
    To lay your life down for the greater good is the absolute manifestation of what Yoda is telling Anakin - to accept losing everything you know 100%.
    It's the same thing.

    Hold on, I'm arguing that the Jedi most definitely are not "fools".
    They don't know what we know, and the shroud of the Dark Side is a plot point.
    I didn't devise it, Lucas did - you have to accept it.
    The Jedi's ability to see what is going on is diminished.
    I don't see anything in the films to even remotely imply that this ignorance is their own fault at all.
    And that is the only point I am trying to make - If Mace walks into a trap, then he walks into a trap.
    Period.
    It is not his fault - it is a trap.

    And show me where it is revealed that the Jedi mandate includes them being trained "psychotherapists".
    This is just a film, after all.
    Mr Miyagi was hardly a psychotherapist.
    Neither was Gandalf.
    Or Ramirez.
    They just dispense mystical pearls of wisdom.
    They are not marriage guidance councillors.

    Luke still triumphed and got the message despite being told, after announcing he was not afraid, "Uh, you will be, you will be...!" - possibly the least constructive advice given by the "mystic sage" in any film ever.
  4. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    lordmorpheus
    They had quit serving the Force when it comes to training Jedi. They've got stuck in tradition. See the Yoda quotes from the Novel I've posted.
  5. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    I don't debate what Matt Stover wrote for his novel (that stuff was never in the script, by the way).
    And it makes sense too.
    But it is off topic, as far as I'm concerned.

    It doesn't make Mace "wrong" to go and face Palpatine, nor to wish to kill him.
    The only person who thinks that that is wrong is Anakin, and his perception has been twisted beyond all recognition by Palpatine - the film goes to great lengths to make this point, IMO.
  6. lordmorpheus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2004
    star 4
    i dont necessarily believe that. they were still serving the force. truth is, i dont believe that they had a means of detecting sidious, IF he could mask himself RIGHT ON CORUSCANT with thousands of jedi looking for him. it just was to be i guess. but dont tell me you believe that yoda doesnt commune with the force......or obi wan or any one else doesnt meditate and listen to the force.
  7. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    Yes, and in the Novel Yoda states that these methods aren't good any longer these days.

    Well, question is what did Anakin have to lose by the end of ROTJ?

    Not their ignorance, quite the contrary. Their failure to counteract undesirable developments that were quite visible, even without having Force powers. Like not considering possible consequences of their decisions whent it comes to Anakin's relationship with Padme or with Palpatine.

    yes, and that's part of the problem that lead to disaster.

    Luke was older, he wasn't raised as a slave, there wasn't a relationship with some Padme, there weren't any dreams of his mother being tortured to death, there wasn't a Darth Sidious around to brainwash him over 15 years ... I could go on.
  8. lordmorpheus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2004
    star 4
    dont you think that jedi have had their own versions of padme or palpatine or secrets/dreams/nightmares in the past? i mean, anakin only gives a small bit of his internal struggles to the jedi. the rest he saves for palpatine and padme. they arent privy to the info that we, the viewers, are.
  9. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    I intentionally wrote "when it comes to Jedi training." That is the area where they got stuck in traditions and no longer served the Force.
  10. lordmorpheus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2004
    star 4
    what's funny is the training is the same as it wasn in the PT save for the fact that yoda and obi wan got luke when he was basically a grown man. they still essentially gave him the same tenets and principles of a jedi. nothing's changed.
  11. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    Oh, he told Obi-Wan about his dreams on his mother. "Dreams pass in time" was the reply he got.

    I think you're very very wrong on this. There's a thread on the Saga board where we discussed it, http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=20441079&start=21602177 . I encourage you to visit it.
  12. lordmorpheus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2004
    star 4
    sooooooooo...you are saying that obi wan should have put him on a couch and analyzed his dreams further?

    have you noticed that everything about anakin was WRONG from the beginning? he COULDNt let go where others have. they've been successful in their endeavours to become jedi. he could not let go. it was a personal decision. not the fault of the jedi....not the fault of anyone but anakin. if you continue to read the novel, it explains that the "dragon" that anakin had been dealing with was inside of him the whole time...the dragon WAS him. not the jedi...not the chancellor...not padme....HIM!!!
  13. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    If necessary, yes - or at least send him to someone to do it. This is the responsibility I bear if I take on training a student.
    And for the dragon, the seeds of that dragon are in every person. It started as a worm and it grew to become a dragon. And although there were symptoms enough, and the Jedi knew there were problems, they didn't take effective measures to counteract it.
  14. lordmorpheus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2004
    star 4
    but ultimately, it comes down to anakin, regardless of whatever "countermeasures" had been, or were not introduced. anakin failed. as a man....as a jedi...he COULDNT overcome his own darkness.....he fed the worm until it became a dragon. he declared a personal war/vendetta on an entire race of people (tuskens) because of the death of his mother. he choked out his own wife, MIND YOU, the source of his distress in the first place. he decided to try kill the one person that had been in his life every day since he left tattooine......if you are looking for blame, start with anakin and end with anakin.
  15. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    ^^well, I'll write the same response that I wrote in the "insult"-thread: Responsibility is normally assigned to person in view of his maturity and ability to bear this responsibility. Anakin obviously was not mature enough the bear the responsibilities assigned to him.

    The Jedi Council, as a group of the most accomplished spiritual leaders in the GFFA and as a group of experienced teachers, is supposed to be able to judge their students' maturities. This is their job and responsibility if they are justified to hold their master titles. And they just didn't do their job in the case of Anakin.

    Edit: Perhaps to clarify things - I don't hold this opinion because I don't like them or I want to blame them for everything that went wrong. Quite the contrary. I hold it because I'm a student of a highly ranked spiritual master myself and I profoundly respect people holding a master title, a lot more profoundly than some people who are defending the Jedi because "they couldn't know better". But the fact that I'm respecting them is just the reason why I hold them liable for Anakin's development to a significant part. Respect and abilities are accompanied by assignments of responsibility.
  16. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    With all due respect, the novel does, and the film doesn't.
    And either way, I don't see any correlation between the Jedi being behind the times and the situation facing Mace specifically in ROTS.

    I'm not sure what your stance on this is, are you saying that Mace IS wrong?
    That is what the topic now boils down to.
    You think Mace was feeding the dark side, right?

    For what it's worth, I do see how what Yoda says in the novel fits the greater context of the films, despite it not being part of the canon.
    I just don't see how that makes Mace "wrong", given the circumstances he faced.
    No one who claims he is "wrong" has yet, in all the many pages of this thread, posted a valid alternative course of action for Mace...

    Hold on, you think it was not a bold step for him to act against Palpatine after all these years?
    You think that it was an easy choice for him?
    Kind of detracts somewhat from the whole message of the saga for me, if you do...

    Did Mace know Anakin had a relationship with Padmé - I didn't really get that impression form the movies?
    Did Mace not say it was dangerous putting Palpatine and Anakin together?

    Palpatine was the disaster - he is evil.
    He happened regardless of the Jedi's actions.
    So, yeah, I agree to a degree that there is a case for saying that the Jedi may have done things differently had they been able to gain more insight and penetrate the shroud of the Dark Side.
    But once again, I don't see how this figures when we get to the point being specifically discussed in this thread - whereby Mace is given a chance to end the Sith uprising.
    This thread is about Mace and how his actions were specifically wrong.

    Face the facts - look through this thread: everytime someone tries to pin any of the exponents of this thread down on this simple fact, the issue is immediately avoided.
    "Oh, it's not about Mace, it's about the whole Jedi order and how they were all doing things wrong - we are just using Mace as an example..."
    And then after a few pages of discussion winding down, when the dust has settled, it goes straight back into blaming the whole Jedi downfall on Mace wishing to rid the galaxy of the Sith.

    This thread has made no groud because this issue is constantly avoided - either you blame Mace or you do not?
    There is not about some general acceptance of Jedi shortcomings in the PT, it is about thinking Mace is somehow responsible in a way that no other Jedi is, simply because he fights Palpatine and walks into a trap that the audience sees being set.
    As I said before - no one has yet give a satisfactory explanation of how the galaxy would be a better place if Mace did not do what he did, or, indeed, proved that the whole Jedi treachery angle existed anywhere outside the mind that dreampt it up (Palpatine's) or the mind that fell for it hook, line and sinker (anakin's).

    Too old, according to Yoda, just like Ani, so no u-turn on Jedi policy there.
    Much anger in him too - just like his father.

    Metaphorically, he was - he had the same desire to escape his "prison" as Anakin.

    There was - Leia replaces Padmé in Luke's story. Protecting her was Luke's motivation for making that step towards the Dark Side, just as Padmé was Anakin's.

  17. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    No, I don't. I think the Jedi being behind the times allowed the situation to evolve into the dilemma Mace is in.


    'cause there really isn't any "right course", it's a catch22 situation where he could do no "right thing".

    At least, for him it was a lot easier a choice than for a healthy, happy man with an intact family.

    On the AOTC DVD, there's a scene in the deleted scenes section, where Obi-Wan told Mace about the emotional involvement of Anakin with Padme.

    Yes he did - and I'll readily give credit him for it. However, he didn't push this opinion through

    Agreed.

    Mace is to be blamed either to 100 percent or to zero percent? -- Sorry, but this is just a bit too simplified for me.


    I hope you're kidding - having a transmitter implanted that will explode if you try to escape isn't exactly the same thing as having a grumpy uncle.

    Oh, come on - he didn't even know Leia was his sister up to ROTJ, much less had a relationship resembling the Anakin-Padme relationhsip.

    I've never said there was one "only reason". Quite the contrary. If you are searching for monocausal explainations, you won't get them from me.

  18. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    I like to call them "deleted for a reason" scenes...
    They are worthy points of reference or discussion, but ultimately they prove nothing about the films, simply because they ain't in 'em.

    Not me equating all these things - Lucas is. He's said so.

    Hmm - I admit what I posted did give that impression.
    Not the case though - just that ths thread seems to keep slipping into this rut where it claims Mace was flat out "wrong" to try to arrest, confront, and later kill, Palpatine.
    That is, IMO, where things become over-simplified and naiive.
    I apologise, I just presumed that because you were pushing the "flawed Jedi" thing, you felt Mace should have sat in the council chamber and twiddled his thumbs too - or sent Palpatine a big heart-shaped box of chocolates in a bid to free the galaxy from the Sith, as is tradition in this thread.
    I see now you were not.

    :)


    LOL - I wish you had said that sooner.
    That was all I wanted to know.

    :)
  19. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    Perhaps the reason they got cut was the film was getting too long and the pacing too slow for the theatres, as mentioned on the DVD? If there was no point to them, why including it in the DVD? Just because Ewan and Sam look so cool in it?

    I'd appreciate if you could provide me with the exact quotes and contexts in which that was said, or tell me where to find it. I find it very hard to believe that it was actually stated like that.

    Actually, several weeks ago I've seriously attempted to discuss on this board if there was any real alternative for Mace, if he could've done something different, and what might have happened then. But no luck - people don't like to strain their brains with such questions here. I find that regrettable, because its really a difficult situation, and I'd be very interested to find out if there is any way at all to get out of it.

    EDIT: Somehow Mace's destiny seems to be messenger for bringing unpleasant news. He was the one who had to tell Qui-Gon that Anakin will not be trained, he was the one who had to tell Anakin that he was not going to be the master, he was the one who told Obi-Wan that he couldn't trust Anakin any longer, he was the one who had to go and tell Palpatine he was going to be arrested. And he is a very stern and earnest man, not exactly the one with a great talent to bring the bad news in packing that makes them more bearable. Due to this, his insights and the many good traits he has tend to be overlooked. Maybe that's why people tend to be so negative when it comes to Mace.
  20. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9

    Actually, it was cut and replaced with the scene where Obi-wan and Mace talk with Yoda. Lucas felt that Yoda should've been included in the discussion. Lucas put it in there to show how a scene evolves. R.A. Salvatore just retained for the novelization.


    "There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    "You?ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no."

    --George Lucas, quoted in J. Windolf, ?Star Wars: The Last Battle,? Vanity Fair, 2005


    They may not be the exact same situations, but they are similar in many respects.
  21. r8hitman Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2004
    star 4
    So Luke is the better jedi.

    (less training, less time, more attachments, but he still said no.=D=)
  22. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    Similar, and yet very different. Similar on the surface, I would say.
    - Anakin leaving at the age of 9, Luke leaving at the age of 19.
    - Anakin leaving his mother back, Luke leaving no-one back on Tatooine.
    - Anakin being influenced over 15 years, Luke being influenced over 15 minutes
    - Anakin being reluctantly accepted as a Jedi, Luke by contrast is urged by Ben
    etc. etc.
    Anyway, there's a thread on the Saga Board where I posted on all this, and what it amounts to is while the situations seem similar, in Anakin's case everything always happens to a greater extreme.
  23. IMTHEGENERAL Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2004
    star 4
    LOL at Mace! "I go out in a blaze of glory" - he said

    Funny. Very, very funny!



    http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y149/IMTHEGENERAL/fallingmace1fm.gif

  24. CABLE-X Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2005

    OMG!!! Funniest post ever....ha ha ha ha ha hoooo ha ha ha whaa haha haha ahaha whoooo...BLAZE....OF...ha ha ha ha...GLORY! OMG....HA HA HA HA HA HA OOOOHHHH sooooooo witty....get it?...blaze of ...ha ha ha ha...Glory...oh man! thats soooo witty...thats priceless priceless.....oh man...ha ha ha ha wooo haha ha ha....

    :rolleyes:
  25. brook_33 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2003
    star 4
    wow, i finally decided to check out this thread. i will say this: i've never seen mace smile.
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