Dark Confessions of Jedi Master Windu

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Master_Shaitan, Apr 14, 2005.

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  1. Imperial Politician Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 1999
    star 4
    Whatever....Just because the White Sox are in the World Serious isn't reason enough for me to listen to a sox who thinks that it is knows a secret.
  2. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

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    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    huh?:confused:
  3. IMTHEGENERAL Jedi Master

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    Nov 17, 2004
    star 4
    Thanks for those 'wise words' IP. [face_thinking]

    "The end of the War is near...."
  4. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

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    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    In essence, the war was over before it began...
  5. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

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    Apr 17, 2004
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    Lol, GiG, shades of Yoda's thoughts as he fights Sidious in the Novel...I assume that's what you're making a reference to...
  6. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Well, more kind of the fact that we already had one quote in the Making of book, grounded deeply in the context of discussing the motivations of a character who is A) being duped and B) being of dubious moral standing to begin with.
    That quote already said "Mace did the wrong thing", if you choose to take it out of that context.
    Now, several months on we have another Lucas quote, rooted in that same context, which is actually less convincing when taken out of context because now it says "Mace, IN ESSENCE, did the wrong thing".

    How it proves any of the claims made in this thread is beyond me...

    Even if you do insist on removing the quote from it's context, "In essence" is a big deal.
    It means "in theory" or "if this was actually happening outside the specific circumstances which it is occuring in".
    It is far from a case-cracker and, as I have said, is less convincing than a Lucas quote we had months ago.
    In essence Paul McCartney was part of one of the greatest songwriting partnerships in pop history and that gift should still be evident today - in reality, I would rather eat any Paul McCartney album made after 1978 smeared liberally in my own excrement than have to listen to it.
    In essence the Western nations have done the people of Iraq a great service - in reality, try telling them that.

    etc

    But, yeah - there's a dead horse being flogged here, much like Yoda was doing...
  7. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5

    ROFL hahahahahaha

    Oh man, that's one of the funniest things I've ever read on these boards. That image is priceless.
  8. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Well, this thread just keeps popping back up - let's remember what it's thread is all about and hammer a few nails into the coffin once and for all, eh:

    OK, granted.
    So a blind man is to blame for tumbling over a loose paving stone.
    Hardly.
    The shroud of the Dark Side does what it says on the tin.
    It is a shroud, the Jedi are - to a degree - fumbling around in the darkness.
    They are not becoming the shroud, they are inhibited by it.

    Well, as the Jedi are traditionally keepers of the peace and not soldiers prior to the events of AOTC, it is safe to say he is stating facts.
    As the Jedi are forced into military service despite the adoption of the Clone army, any pro-army stance is clearly not tied to this point anyway, is it? If stating the Jedi are not soldiers is a pro-army stance, then how come big, bad manipulative Mace ends up with his Jedi Order militarised and a Clone Army of the Republic for them to command on the field of battle.
    You are saying his sole reason for wanting the army (a desire he, in reality, never actually expresses once in the saga) is evident through his assertion that he would rather have this army than see the Jedi fight a war.
    The Jedi's acceptance of both Jedi carrying out and overseeing military operations and the Republic owning an army makes a mockery of this assumption.

    No. No. No. Clearly the Jedi kill have been known to kill people. Jango is a deadly foe - "lesser" is subject to lack of evidence of objectivity. Yes - as does Obi kill Maul, Anakin kill Palpatine etc etc.

    "The Jedi are keepers of the peace." - Mace Windu
    "The Jedi are exploitative, murderous opportunists." - Not Mace Windu

    1) Yoda, Mace and Ki-Adi Mundi are the senior triumvirate on the council. They are equal. One cannot jump above the other's head, especially whe they are all in the same room.
    2) Proof that Yoda disagrees and objects to this course of action comes from where exactly?

    Most senior Jedi have evidently "discussed things" with Palpatine, and no one expresses any doubt over Palpatine's credentials until - well blow me down - until Mace does in ROTJ.

    More likely Obi-Wan, and not really specifically.

    He suggested rather than insisted.
    And now he is wrong for being honest?
    Here's the deal - the Republic is not at war yet.
    It does not need an army yet.
    The Republic is in negotiations with the Sepratists and is getting nowhere, obviously thanks to Palpatine not actually wanting negotiations to get anywhere.
    That is the state of play - the Sepratists are poised to take military action, negotiations a breaking down, the Jedi are not capable of fighting a war on that scale.
    The Jedi powers are not really an issue, whether the Jedi become militarised or not depends u
  9. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

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    May 22, 2003
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  10. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

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    Gig, that was a truly masterful dissection of this thread.
    I can feel your anger, it makes you stronger, gives you focus![face_devil]
    And of course, I love it.
    =D= Lock 'er up!
  11. Imperial Politician Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 1999
    star 4
    Ya...ok General :rolleyes:


    I can see that in the future we are going to get a 100,000 world rant by M_S and ITG regarding this issue. Once again its going to be...blah, blah, blah Mace's fault, blah, blah, blah, Mace did the wrong thing, blah, blah, blah, Palpatine is the greatest ever, blah, blah, blah, it isn't Anakin's fault.
  12. COMMANDER76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 4
    HOW did this thread NOT get locked up ages ago?

    hmmmmmm......MS must be a "stooley" lol
  13. Imperial Politician Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 1999
    star 4

    I would further add the following: At this time, the Jedi didnt' know that Dooku was a Sith. Considering joining the Sith to the Jedi is like joining Satan to a catholic priest, I would imagine that the Jedi would immediately make the assumption that Dooku had gone that far and had completely ignored his previous ideals. Remember, Dooku was supposed to be an idealist who was fighting for freedome, he just had a different interpreation of how to get there. He projected that the Republic was corrupt and needed changing.



    I would add that any look from Yoda to Mace does imply that Yoda is accusing Mace, because that would be a rather rude don't you think. That would lack all social graces and would be rather improper, and I don't think that Yoda's character was designed in this movie to protray such actions. More than likely there has been some discussion on this issue between the council, which would imply that the look is an acknowledgment of past discussions and worries of the council. Considering they are talking about Anakin, it seems like more proof of the Council, and Yoda, trying to give Anakin the benefit of the doubt, merely because he is the chosen one, and trying to state that he is like the general jedi population and not some rogue person. They are tring to explain his behavior and rationalize it; despite the fact that they don't approve. Remember, Mace nods his head as if to say: "Ya, I know what you mean." It's not, "Ya, I gotta stop doing that."



  14. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

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    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Yeah GiG pretty much shut down this thread more then any mod could ever do :p

    ( [face_peace] to the honourable delegates of the Mods though)

    - O_F
  15. THEFORCEROCKS Jedi Master

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    Nov 23, 2004
    star 4

    Yeah GiG pretty much shut down this thread more then any mod could ever do [/b]


    Agree with your decision the council does. [face_peace]=D= />
  16. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    You guys crack me up.

    My main point all along was that Mace Windu does the wrong thing.

    IMO Lucas confirms this in the DVD commentary. Now you can put your spin on it in the name of the Master of the Jedi Mace Windu, but thats your interpretion.

    In essence killing Sidious at that point was wrong. Anakin attacking Mace was even worse for obvious reasons. But had Mace just put some faith in Anakin and attempted to arrest Sidious with the support of the chosen one then things may not have gone belly up for the Republic and Jedi order.

    And before you say, Palpatine wouldnt be arrested - Mace thought he could be, Anakin wanted him to be and would Sidious have attacked Anakin?

    Its a moot point for me.

    Mace is one of the greatest PT characters, second to Sidious for me. But he's not infallible as people make out.

    SLJ said himself he doesnt like being pushed into a corner. Thats how I see it. he rushed in, lost his posse, fell for Sidious game, didnt have faith in Anakin and ended up doing the wrong thing.

    Argue against that all you want. There is always another point of view. just dont tell me mine is wrong.;)
  17. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Your main point, Shaitan, is outlined in your initial post.
    That post is there for all to see.
    In that post you take every single piece of screen-time Mace has ever had and put it through the conjecture mill until it plops out the otherside as a virtually unrecogniseable mess of PT scenarios.
    That "point", as brazen and ungainly as some twisted mighty oak, has gradually been whittled down to just one matchstick thin assertion - that Mace did one thing wrong in ROTS.

    I'm sure ITG agrees with you too.
    Most people, it would seem do not.
    Now that's fine, contrary to the consensus above, I'm not begging for this thread to be locked or suggesting that discussion of Mace's slender role in the PT should end altogether.
    Far from it.

    What kind of baffles me is the way this thread has progressed - it sinks out of view for months on end until some new piece of "evidence" arrives on the scene and either you or your brother bump it up with a self-congratulatory "look, we were right" kind of post.
    Anyone who questions how the "evidence" relates to the premise of this thread is immediately viewed as being "on your case" or something.
    We're just trying to wrangle some reasoned debate out of all of this "I was right. Wait until tomorrow. All will be revealed" posturing.
    Honestly, that doesn't really invite discussion, just contempt amongst some posters.

    With all due respect, we have to look no further than the first page of this thread to see more spin than a West-Indies bowler could dream of.
    Y'no - glass houses, stones and all that.
    Mace being bad and wrong just isn't a plot point - Lucas is the one putting spin on it. In his description of Anakin's decisions he is explaining how Anakin makes Mace the scapegoat for his dubious decisions.
    He says "in essence" - that is the spin.
    In essence = if this was happening under any other circumstances.
    It isn't, Mace is chosing to strike down Palpatine under the circumstances that he is not just the mild-mannered Chancellor he is a crazy, evil Sith who absolutely will not stop.

    The Jedi were already screwed.
    They have tried to seize control from the Supreme Chancellor.

    Mace thought he could be, until the lightning.
    Anakin couldn't give a flying **** - he just wants Palpatine to teach him how to save Padmé.
    He is not interested in "the Jedi way" one jot - that is what he tells himself to justify making a pact with the devil.
    Anakin is just wrong.
    So what - Palpatine ends up in the cells, he just gets Anakin to free him. It's that simple, Anakin will do anything to save Padmé.
    It's still painted as treason, and the Republic laps it up.

    Mace just isn't that important or interesting.
    This is his one big fight scene.
    He's great to you because you have invented a non-existent subtext for every single glance and tic.

    I'm not saying he's perfect - I'm just looking at this scene objectively.
    It is all about Anakin.
    It is the point where we yell "No, Anakin, what are you thinking! He's the good guy, you've been tricked!"
    Mace is just a Jedi. You could substitute him for any othe
  18. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Your main point, Shaitan, is outlined in your initial post.
    That post is there for all to see.
    In that post you take every single piece of screen-time Mace has ever had and put it through the conjecture mill until it plops out the otherside as a virtually unrecogniseable mess of PT scenarios.
    That "point", as brazen and ungainly as some twisted mighty oak, has gradually been whittled down to just one matchstick thin assertion - that Mace did one thing wrong in ROTS.


    the root of the points was that Mace was a jedi that has good intentions but does the wrong thing.

    I'm sure ITG agrees with you too.
    Most people, it would seem do not.


    Most people do actually.

    Now that's fine, contrary to the consensus above, I'm not begging for this thread to be locked or suggesting that discussion of Mace's slender role in the PT should end altogether.
    Far from it.


    Slender - apparantly he beats the Emperor.

    What kind of baffles me is the way this thread has progressed - it sinks out of view for months on end until some new piece of "evidence" arrives on the scene and either you or your brother bump it up with a self-congratulatory "look, we were right" kind of post.

    Its not like that at all. I have always had a core opinion of mace - that he makes bad choices. That has gone too far a few times, though I had reasons. But it was always there. He says the wrong thing. He does the wrong thing. If Qui Gon is the left wing of the Jedi then Mace is the far right. Thats what I have always felt. When information came along regarding that interpretation I ran with it. Sue me.

    Anyone who questions how the "evidence" relates to the premise of this thread is immediately viewed as being "on your case" or something.

    Not at all.

    We're just trying to wrangle some reasoned debate out of all of this "I was right. Wait until tomorrow. All will be revealed" posturing.
    Honestly, that doesn't really invite discussion, just contempt amongst some posters.


    Just seems to me that people keep bringing up something that I admitted to be wrong with. The clone issue took up a lot of the first post but it was based upon Mace's character.

    With all due respect, we have to look no further than the first page of this thread to see more spin than a West-Indies bowler could dream of.

    LOL. Yeah yeah. But as much spin as there was, there was also truth.

    Y'no - glass houses, stones and all that.
    Mace being bad and wrong just isn't a plot point - Lucas is the one putting spin on it. In his description of Anakin's decisions he is explaining how Anakin makes Mace the scapegoat for his dubious decisions.


    Mace is not bad. I havent said that once im this thread. But he does make a wrong move. thats what GL says.

    He says "in essence" - that is the spin.

    Because Anakin has other motivations. but in essence he is right.

    In essence = if this was happening under any other circumstances.
    It isn't, Mace is chosing to strike down Palpatine under the circumstances that he is not just the mild-mannered Chancellor he is a crazy, evil Sith who absolutely will not stop.


    Now you are making this about mace. He is talking about Anakin. Anakins reasons are blurred but in essence he is right.

    The Jedi were already screwed.
    They have tried to seize control from the Supreme Chancellor.


    So had Anakin tried to arrest Sidious with Mace, Sidious would have fought back against Anakin?

    Mace thought he could be, until the lightning.

    The commentary discussion concerns only what happens after the lightning.

    Anakin couldn't give a flying **** - he just wants Palpatine to teach him how to save Padmé.
    He is not interested in "the Jedi way" one jot - that is what he tells himself to justify making a pact with the devil.


    If that were the case he would have just killed Mace straight away. Anakin went to the office as a jedi. He was willing to do the right thing. Mace went against that and then Anakin did the wrong thing TO
  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Let's let this discussion lie for now. Otherwise this thread will be locked next.
  20. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Okey-dokey...
    But can I just say that taking that sentnce out of the context of the whole commentary passage it is from changes the meaning radically?
    No?
    OK, I won't then...
    :)
  21. IMTHEGENERAL Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2004
    star 4
    Mace Windu-The Truth

    So much has been said about this character. The Mace vs. Palpatine duel probably the most discussed issue from ROTS. The Good old ?Yes? or ?No? debate seems to have been answered by George Lucas?from a certain point of view.

    From what Georgy-boy has said regarding the Palpy/Mace debacle, I have the following points to make. Now lets all keep this civil and enjoy the debate. Remember, we all have at least one thing in common-Our love for Star wars!!

    ITG?s rant

    I like the character Mace Windu and I like the actor Sam Jackson. I like the fact that there is tension between Anakin and Mace and you get to sense this when they first meet in Episode 1. So it is fitting that Mace is the Jedi Anakin has to kill in to save Sidious which cements his turn to the dark side. You always got the feeling that Mace and Anakin needed a good scrap to sort out there differences. It wasn?t quite the battle I hoped for between them but then, I had hoped for a bit too much?in some cases!

    My problem is this-

    This man (the Legend that is Mace) not only bests the EMPEROR in the lightsaber duel but he does it in about 60 seconds. This is something that Master Yoda could not achieve so this degrades Yodas character even further (now that we know that Qui Gon jinn is the brains behind Yodas tuition of Luke by supplying Yoda with his wisdom between ep3 and 4.) Yoda learns from his mistakes through the guidance of Mr Jinn.

    Yoda now seems like not only a failure in battle(and remember he couldn?t even defeat Dooku in AOTC) but also far less knowledgeable and as wise as we all originally perceived him to be. Qui Gon- His old padawan (!) passed on the ?real info? to him! Yoda is now just a glorified messenger /monkey boy.

    Now we all know that SLJ wanted a purple saber and he got it. We all know he wanted a great death scene-he got it(well?.kind of). I believe that GL bowed to SLJ?s every wish and went too far by showing Mace beat the Emperor in a saber duel. This was done just to satisfy SLJ?s ego and therefore cheapening the story. It also makes the Emperor look far less powerful than we thought he was.

    So Mace could have destroyed the Sith. Mace was a more capable warrior than Yoda (don?t give me the ?War not makes one great? line because there is now nothing that makes Yoda look great- his magic has now gone.

    Qui Gon was the brains. Mace was the brawn. Yoda was the ?.nothing.

    I have always defended GL when I heard so many criticise him. However after his confirmation in the ROTS DVD commentary I believe that some of the criticism and animosity toward him in some cases is deserved. He sold out to SLJ. He degraded the character of Yoda.

    Mace Windu?s/SLJ?s Dark Confession - he has Diva-esque demands which almost ruin the saga.

    Revenge of the Sith is a truly great movie-the best out of the six IMO but only if you skip the bit where Mace bests Palpatine in the saber duel.

    I am glad Mace died so he couldn?t mess up in the OT.

    Enjoy-
    http://rapidshare.de/files/6665389/Unlikely_Hero.wmv.html

    ITG Out.
  22. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    I said let it lie. That's two warnings. Don't make me go for a third.
  23. jedi_jacks Jedi Master

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    Jul 17, 2005
    star 4
    so is sidious really mace windu's apprentice? thats why sidious is so happy, he finally became a sith master and got an apprentice all at once. mace windu tought him well.
  24. lordmorpheus Jedi Master

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    Dec 16, 2004
    star 4

    DS, forgive me for not totally understanding why the mods want this topic closed, but why dont you want them discussing this any further? Legitimate question coming from a concerned reader/poster. No BS.
  25. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    I called for a ceasefire, because this thread is going around in circles and people are too busy flaming and baiting. Next time, ask me in private.
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