Dark Confessions of Jedi Master Windu

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Master_Shaitan, Apr 14, 2005.

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  1. ConflictSolver Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 2003
    star 1
    YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYAAAWWWNNNN THIS POST ALMOST MADE ME GIVE UP SMOKING PADAWAN BUT ANYWAY YOU CANT BLAME ANI'S FALL ON MACE....IN FACT ALL THE JEDI ARE CULPABLE....ESPECIALLY OB1 WHO WANTS TO REIGN ANI IN GOOD FAITH BUT IS OVERLY CRITCAL IN TEACHING HIM THE FORCE...IT BUILDS RESENTMENT ON ANI'S PART....PROBABLY BECAUSE OB1 NEVER REALLY WANTED THE JOB OF TEACHING ANI THE FORCE...HE FELT OBLIGATED FOR QUI GONNS SAKE................NOW MACE DOES STRADDLE THE DARK SIDE IN HIS FIGHTING BUT IN THINK THAT IS MAINLY POETIC LICENCE TO JUSTIFY HIS POSITION IN THE ORDER AND A PERK FOR SLJ PLAYING THE ROLE.....

    I FEEL THERE WERE A FEW RACIAL UNDERTONES IN THE PART BECAUSE ITS OBVIOUS THAT GL DIDNT WANT STANDOUT BLACK JEDI ON THE COUNCIL TO BE A CAMEO EXTRA OR RUBBER STAMP...SO HE PUT IN THIS POSITION OF POWER BEHIND YODA......I GUESS GL DIDNT FEEL AMERICA WAS READY FOR THE MEAN KICK AZZ BLACK GUY TO BE NUMERO UNO ..ESPECIALLY ON THE GOOD GUYS SIDE......

    OF COURSE MACE IS DARK AND SO ARE MANY OTHER JEDI...HE MAKES BAD DECISIONS...OK AND???BALANCING THE LIGHT AND DARK SIDE OF THE FORCE IS SOMETHING ALL JEDI MUST FIGHT WITH BECAUSE IT IS SO EASY TO MOVE FROM THE GREY INTO THE DARKNESS ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU WELD A SPECIAL POWER OVER ORDINARY PEOPLE....SO ALL THE JEDI REPRESENTED THE INHERENT FLAWS OF THE JEDI....NO ONE REPRESENTED THEM ALL BUT TOGETHER THEY TYPIFIED THE WHOLE WEAKNESS THAT PREMEATED THROUGHOUT THE ORDER.....


    MACES....ARROGANCE & QUICKTEMPEREDNESS

    YODA'S.... DENIAL....OVERCATIOUSNESS

    OB1...INSENITIVITY....ABRASIVENESS

    ANIKANS ...IMPATIENCE AND IMPULSIVENESS

    THE COUNCIL ...LACK OF ACTION AND INDECISION

    THE JEDI'S GULLIBILITY...ALL PART OF THE WHOLE PROBLEM
  2. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    someone has a BIT too much free time on their hands...good GOD that was rediculous and LONG!

    Wow! What an argument. There goes my theory. Well at least I spent my free time writting something that sparked debate. Just imagine if I spent the same amount of time bashing people with inane remarks. Now that would be ridiculous
  3. DarthVengeant Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 3
    ConflictSolver - you need to learn how to type, and how to spell..."how embarrassing"
  4. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Um, I'm not going off LOE. According LOE, Syfo ordered the clones and then it was co-opted by Palps. I'm going off just common sense plus AOTC. Sorry, looks like you have no argument.

    You're not going off LOE? Oh right. So these are your own opinions - based on...your own perceptions...interesting. [face_thinking]

    Again, Syfo was already dead, according to Obi-Wan, when the clones were ordered. Obviously, then it was Palpatine who ordered them. Tyranus was corrupted at some point just prior, and before leaving the Jedi Order, erased Kamino. Then he hired Jango as the template. Done and done. *cracks knuckles*

    Interesting theory. Proof please.

    Case dismissed. [face_dancing]

  5. ConflictSolver Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 2003
    star 1
    DARTH IS THAT THE BEST THING YOU CAN SAY.....NO CLEVER POST......NOT EVEN ADDRESSING THE THREAD...WELL IGNORANCE NEVER DID SHOW MUCH REASON...
    WHATS REALLY EMBARRASING IS YOU DISREGRADED THE ARGUMENT I PRESENTED AND WENT STRAIGHT TO THE JUVENILE TEACHER ROLE ...TRYING TO PROOFREAD MY POST


    P.S YOU MAY FEEL FREE TO CORRECT MY SPELLING AT YOUR EXPENSE...........
  6. DarthVengeant Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 3
    "Wow! What an argument. There goes my theory. Well at least I sepnt my free time writting something that sparked debate. Just imagine if I spent the same amount of time bashing people with inane remarks. Now that would be ridiculous"

    No, you'd realize its ridiculous to argue like a child about some character in a movie/book online after writing a billion word post which must have taken ALONG time.

    THAT is just flat out ridiculous and a waste of time. But, hey...do what you please, but don't expect 100% of a positive reaction to such dribble.

    good night
  7. Invictus_Sol Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2003
    star 4
    The proof that Palps ordered them is Order 66. They're all part of his ingenious plan to kill the Jedi. Mace has no motive to betray the Jedi, I'm afraid. You simply want him to be a traitor or whatever based on nothing but your own imaginings. It doesn't make any sense in context of the movies or in terms of characters. You'd rather Mace was the person that erased Kamino, even though Tyranus was there at that time and had motive to erase it. I don't get why you're so hung-up on this.
  8. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    No, you'd realize its ridiculous to argue like a child about some character in a movie/book online after writing a billion word post which must have taken ALONG time.

    THAT is just flat out ridiculous and a waste of time. But, hey...do what you please, but don't expect 100% of a positive reaction to such dribble.

    good night


    Again, congrats on your intelligent come back.

    Who's the more foolish the fool or the fool that follows it?

    You read my ridiculous post and replied.

    Sweet dreams.
  9. ConflictSolver Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 2003
    star 1
    ALONG TIME?????!!! HAHAHAHA.......SPELL CHECK ANYONE???
  10. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    The proof that Palps ordered them is Order 66. They're all part of his ingenious plan to kill the Jedi. Mace has no motive to betray the Jedi, I'm afraid. You simply want him to be a traitor or whatever based on nothing but your own imaginings. It doesn't make any sense in context of the movies or in terms of characters. You'd rather Mace was the person that erased Kamino, even though Tyranus was there at that time and had motive to erase it. I don't get why you're so hung-up on this.

    Based on character motivations and mace's attachment to the republic i think you will find that it is a perfectly reasonable explanation, if not likely.

    Im not hung up on mace being a traitor. He is a good guy. he has good intentions. he is lead down a dark path by his attachment. Simple. Its all about purpose of character and motivation. What do we know about mace? What makes him the person he is? What drives him?

    Order 66 was Palpatine's plan but why you think that means that Mace wasn't involved i dont know. This is the tragedy of it. Mace believes the army will protect his love -it actually kills it.

    Lets keep this thread on track and leave out the bashing. Honestly, my point will not be broken, especially by half cut explanations from people that try to break it with what are fundamentally there own perceptions (no proof). The thing to look at here is what you lot believe about the EU, what we see in Mace's character and what are his motivations as a character. What is his role in the story etc etc.
  11. limsunno Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2004
    star 1
    First Mace knows that the army want protect his love that's why he want to get rid of Palpatine as soon as possible in fact he says to Anakin that he controlss everything thats why he is so dangerous to keep alive.
    Second the Jedi vision at the begining in EP.III seems be clouded more then ever, in fact a valid argument between the 3 top Jedi Yoda - Mace - Obi is that after the death of Dooku & the retirement of of Separatists the dark side should have diminished, but in fact it does exaclty the opposite its growing stronger.

    A valid argument example about all this is, is KOTOR II when @ the begining of the game on Taris Kreia speaks to Atton when Atton comments how weak is he Exile and she gives the explanation, that a Jedi without the force is nothing.
    The Jedi at this period of the saga are so clouded so blind without there vision that they are weaklings, or they can see around them is darkness and trying to make up things just as a normal being which is very difficult for a Jedi & this frustrates so much all the Jedi & in most case Mace then he wents to get rid of the Sith Lord as soon as possible. Thats why in the argument with Yoda & Obi he so much on his lines of getting rid of Siduious as fast as possible. On the other end Yoda wants to play the chase game with the Sith Lord so he goes out and makes his last move - take over the republic which Yoda knows its his plan in the end.
    You can always argue about Mace agressive negotiations but you can argue that if he was instead of Yoda in the cave battle of EP.II he would have killed Dooku & the war of Sidious would have never started, but if we stay going with ifs etc the debate will never finish.
  12. JustinPeeler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2003
    star 4
    Master_Shaitan, bumping this thread from page four and ignoring my posts which show why it's a waste of time while arguing with everyone else has me convinced you are a troll.

    Everyone else, don't feed the troll.
  13. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    I finished work this morning and missed your post actually. i'll check it out now. Im no troll.
  14. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    OMG..no way am I reading all that.
    Mace Windu evil? No
    Of course he killed Janga Fett, it was a battle and Janga was a threat.
  15. JustinPeeler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2003
    star 4
    Master_Shaitan posted on 4/16/05 5:41am

    />

    You ignored my posts yesterday. You ignor the points of everyone else.

    The book and the screenplay and graphic novel are all out, yet you continue to "theorize" about Mace ordering the clones, even though thast was delt with in the EU personally approved by Lucas. This thread has no point, and yet you bumped it up from the depths.

    The evidence isn't looking too good for you./>/>
  16. Count_Dooku84 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2005
    star 1
    i dont get why these mods allow so many maces threads.
  17. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Anakin had attachments- corrupted by the darkside
    Dooku had attachments-corrupted by the darkside

    Mace Windu has an attachment...The Republic-the words of Matthew stover used after an in depth coversation with George Lucas...the creator.

    Attachment is forbidden.

    So what happens to Windu?


    Why highlight his attachment?



    Because he if fighting to save the Republic that he loves. As the book says.

    Exactly! Anakin is fighting to save the person he love. They shouldnt be acting on their attachments, let alone have any! by highlighting Mace's attachment its a clear sign that he acts on it!


    After Mace disarms Sidious, he says "For all your power my Lord, all you are is under arrest".

    Then Sidious starts to fry him. He realizes that even unarmed the Lord of the Sith is too dangerous and moves in for the kill while Sidious is down.


    For one the online scipt is clearly incomplete but anyway:

    a)We don't know how this scene will play out on screen.

    b)Isn't it arrogant of Mace thinking he can take the sith. Surely he knew what they were capable of. He knows they use lightning before the fight - whats the difference.

    c)We know that Mace's actions lead to Anakin having to side against him. He had beaten Sidious once. Sids no longer has a saber. He has anakin with him - why not attempt to arrest him take him somewhere secure.

    BUT

    d)All this is irrelevant. He should never have rushed into the battle. Thats my main point. he acts on his attachment and his emotions and falls into the sith trap. Thats the dark path. Its leads him into battle and it probably leads him in life. "For once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny". He should not be there. Anakin wouldn't have been put in the position he was (his latter choice beside). Mace wouldnt have given Palpatine the evidence he needed to turn public/senate against the jedi. Jedi purge wouldnt have happened. Also remember that GL has cut the scene from the film where Mace tells Yoda that Palps is sidious. This puts all the responsibility of what mace does on his shoulders. He's in charge.

    e)He is so into the battle and so pleased with himself for 'winning' that he misses Anakins shatterpoint or as we say in the films he doesnt see Anakins conflict or fear. He goes against the prophecy. He thinks he can kill the sith. he thinks he can save his love. He thinks he can fight fire with fire. He hasnt had the right training nor does he see the truth - love is the answer to the darkness. This isnt and shouldn't be his fight. But Mace is influenced by the dark side. He has made bad choices before, he makes them again.

    You ignored my posts yesterday. You ignor the points of everyone else.

    The book and the screenplay and graphic novel are all out, yet you continue to "theorize" about Mace ordering the clones, even though thast was delt with in the EU personally approved by Lucas. This thread has no point, and yet you bumped it up from the depths.

    The evidence isn't looking too good for you.


    I've been at work! Got back on this morning!

    So if you believe in the EU then you believe what the novel says abouts mace's attachment?

    WHERE DO ATTACHMENTS LEAD?!

    You obvioulsy took what is written in LOE as canon so why not the ROTS novel which was written by a guy who actually met lucas?

    Personally i think LOE leaves it open. It doesnt state exactly what happened. its all implied. But anyway believe in LOE then you believe in ROTS novel, thus you believe that Mace has an attachment. Full stop.





  18. Chewbaccer Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    I am so tired of these "Mace is evil" theories. They are almost as annoying as the "who is most powerful/biggest badass" threads.

    Folks, once and for all, Mace is not bad. He uses his dark impulses to aid him for the good. Get it? That's what bringing balance to the Force means. In the ROTS novelization, Mace as much says so. We all carry dark, primal impulses "from the jungle," as Mace says, because we are products of evolution and survival of the fittest. You cannot deny these impulses; they are there. You have to learn to manage them. Denial is not an effective strategy. That's where the Jedi fail. And in fact, when Palpatine encourages Anakin to experience his emotions, not to suppress them, he has a point. Not all of Palpatine's criticisms of the Jedi are invalid. Of course, you cannot let these dark impulses consume you; you must control them, or more appropriately, you have to learn to channel your dark impulses for the good. That's what bringing balance means. Luke is a wonderful example of this balance. In the Prequels, Mace is probably the best example of this balance. And notice that Mace, with this balance, comes much closer to defeating Palpatine than Yoda.
  19. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    I am so tired of these "Mace is evil" theories

    Ok. what is wrong with you people. I had said time and time again that mace isnt evil. Its clear to see. If you are gonna bash me get your facts straight.

    Folks, once and for all, Mace is not bad. He uses his dark impulses to aid him for the good. Get it? That's what bringing balance to the Force means. In the ROTS novelization, Mace as much says so. We all carry dark, primal impulses "from the jungle," as Mace says, because we are products of evolution and survival of the fittest. You cannot deny these impulses; they are there. You have to learn to manage them. Denial is not an effective strategy. That's where the Jedi fail. And in fact, when Palpatine encourages Anakin to experience his emotions, not to suppress them, he has a point. Not all of Palpatine's criticisms of the Jedi are invalid. Of course, you cannot let these dark impulses consume you; you must control them, or more appropriately, you have to learn to channel your dark impulses for the good. That's what bringing balance means. Luke is a wonderful example of this balance. In the Prequels, Mace is probably the best example of this balance. And notice that Mace, with this balance, comes much closer to defeating Palpatine than Yoda

    So you are saying its right to use your dark side?!

    You cannot control the dark side! You should never use it!

    Your idea of balance is totally wrong.

    Luke is a wonderful example of this balance

    What by throwing down his saber and refusing to a)kill and b)be lead by the darkside.

    Love is the answer to the darkness my friend.

    Palpatine is evil btw.

    Yub Yub
  20. Darth Damo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 1999
    star 3
    I always thought Mace had the impression he was the Chosen One himself he was so arrogant.

    This is a sublimely well thought out thread. Well done.

    Damo
  21. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Thank you darth damo. Finally someone who has something nice to say!

    I know where you are coming from with your point. Its something that is eluded to in the EU. He is the youngest jedi master on the council and his actions do seem to show that he thinks he has the abilties needed to wipe out the sith. There are also suggestions that he is jealous of Anakin.

    What is interesting though is our perceptions of mace. The feel with get from the essence of the character. For me its dark and I think GL did that intentionally. If eveyone here were to just admit it thye would know what I mean. There is something about mace - I have shown what it is in this thread. I'm not saying he is evil. He is just lead by darkness.

    MS
  22. jvberggren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    I always thought Mace had the impression he was the Chosen One himself he was so arrogant.

    i wouldn't go that far...


    i think mace is just tired of playing a diplomat. that's probably all there is to it, but i wouldn't completely rule out the possibility that lucas is going elsewhere with the mace character.
  23. Darth Damo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 1999
    star 3
    Well the fact that Windu completely dismisses that the Sith could have returned means that no Sith + No Chosen One... He disses the notion that it could be Anakin.. this slave boy from Tatooine.

    One point I would really like to raise is that I dont believe Mace is the only tainted Jedi. Kenobi lost the plot for a while against Maul. Now im not saying that Kenobi is a darksider. What I am alluring to is the general level of fear that must be rife in the Jedi at this stage. They are getting killed left, right and centre, The republic is falling down around them, they are in-fighting and have lost their togetherness. Is it any wonder that they are suffering emotional problems due to the stress and their inability to sort the problems out.

    Again... This thread is awesome. Why stop with Windu?? The darkside is hungry and its consuming everything in sight...
  24. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    The reason i have highlighted Windu is because his actions go up a level. Yes all the jedi are indeed clouded and are unable to use the force. However Mace Windu has an attachment - The Republic. Like anakin he will do anything to save this attachment - whether it be going behind the council and ordering clones or using the darkside in battle to kill someone who threatens his love.
  25. Darth Damo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 1999
    star 3
    Master_Shaitan... Have you read The Satanic Verses??

    I wasn't aware of Windu's love of the republic. I felt more that his "overconfidence was his weakness" to coin a phrase... I think mace and yoda are perfect foils in this case. Yoda keeping it real and Mace representing the danger to the Jedi. Outstanding.

    Secondly... I have been around here (theforce.net) for years and I am shocked by the amount of thread bashers in here.

    The 2 guys who have written this thread have obviously researched it well and made a genuine attempt to increase our understanding of the characters and movies. Even if you dont choose to believe all of it or any of it at least give them the respect that their efforts deserve. Its not a "Mace is a baddy... Discuss!" thread. There is a lot of effort here and good sound reasoning.

    Up!
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