Books A/V DARK DISCIPLE (Ventress/Vos novel) (spoilers)

I'm having trouble with this novel...

Spoiler

I guess it's just hard seeing the Legends-verse actively being ripped up. So far, in my head-canon, I had TCW slotted right after Dark Horse's Clone Wars Volume 6: On the Fields of Battle, with Volumes 7-9 thrown out of canon in my mind because of the Barriss and Ventress changes in the last seasons of TCW.

Now, however, it seems like I'm going to have to throw out all of Dark Horse's Clone Wars run from head-canon. It's clear in the novel that Vos and Ventress have never met before. It would have been fun to have some reference to Vos' previous undercover mission working for Dooku alongside Ventress, to the point where Ventress was taunting Kenobi in the Battle of Rendili that "Vos betrays everyone", or something to that effect. And all that character development is now out the window.

It just becomes a point where the Quinlan Vos in the novel is a completely different character than the one everyone read about in Dark Horse's comics, with only the name and psychometry powers in common. And Dark Horse actually originated the character (his split-second appearance in Episode I doesn't count, as the character was neither named or even established as a Jedi then).

We all knew going in that post-ROTJ was going to be overwritten, and I understand and accept that as necessary. But rewriting the Clone Wars even after the TV show is already over?? I guess that my take on the Disney reboot was that the authors would make new material under the guidelines set by the new films and new tv shows, overwriting what needs to be overwritten (Bantam post-ROTJ era, New Jedi Order, etc), but mostly focusing on creating new material that can sit alongside the old.

But in this novel, it's just rewriting the old stuff completely. And was this really necessary for closure on TCW? Ventress went off into the sunset as a bounty hunter and Vos stayed as a Jedi general per ROTS. The show wrapped things up fine in regards to their characters. Quite frankly, why the Jedi aren't worried about Darth Maul in ROTS is a far more pressing cliffhanger, and one that the 'Son of Dathomir' comic completely failed to resolve (the Jedi should at least be fooled into thinking Maul was dead, instead of being aware of Maul's continuing active leadership of the Mandalorians as per the comic).

 

Or, you know, you could just ignore Dark Disciple in your headcanon, like I'm doing.

(You're surprised that they're not following Legends? I think you very much missed the point of the whole reboot thing.)

 

Well, I do expect to the new Disney canon to stand on its own. For example, pure Disney canon has no background on how Asajj even first met Obi-Wan or Anakin, or what their history is. Instead it sort of expects viewers of 'The Clone Wars' film to be familiar with the old stuff somehow, but that it apparently happened differently.

For example, Asajj mentions in the TCW film that she wants revenge on Skywalker, and Dooku assures her that she'll get her chance. What does she want revenge for? It is never explained in TCW film or series. This only makes sense in Dark Horse's Clone Wars Vol. 6 where Anakin tossed her down the depths of Coruscant, or even the Legends microseries where he tosses Ventress down a chasm in Yavin.

How does Anakin get that scar...?

 

I am SO glad this show is cancelled. This book pretty much confirms that Filoni cannot think up anything without cannibalising better stories that came before, and descending into terrible fanfiction. Again, you can't expect fans to ignore previously established character histories, and yet still depend on former expectations and knowledge to sell a story. Cause if I depend on TCW to know everything about Vos, then I know absolutely nothing beyond that he's some weird hippie who maybe turns dark for no reason, but not really. AWFUL.

Spoiler

I don't even care that they want to kill Ventress, but I do care that her death and function was so...cheap.

 

FYI, Filoni did not write the arcs this book is based on. Katie Lucas did, so put the blame on her for any issues you have with the book regarding "cannibalizing" better stories. I think Filoni's work on Rebels has pretty much proven that most of the canon trampling and poorly thought out story arcs/twists that occurred in TCW came from the Lucas family.

 

I actually liked some of what Katie Lucas wrote, it was a lot more interesting than most of the paint by numbers rebels plots.

 

Oh, I did too. The Order 66 arc is one of my favorites. It's just that from everything we know, most of the canon trampling can be traced back to one of the Lucas' liking a certain character or concept from the EU and then creating their own version of it in TCW that invalidates the story they drew upon.

 

Have you read the book yet? If so, well played.

If not, then...I got nothing, really, other than "nice coincidence."

 

Hold on now.

 

*throws a copy of Medstar at Kalob*

 

*raises hand* I'm part of that volatile contingent, I guess.

Spoiler

Yeah, I was very upset when Ventress died. If I hadn't been at the beach, I might have thrown my Kindle. (As it was, I didn't want my Kindle getting full of sand.) However, I was upset more because I liked Ventress and didn't want her to die, than because it was a bad storytelling decision and an example of fridging. I'm not happy this was basically Vos's book, not Ventress's, and I kind of rolled my eyes that she "saved" him in the end. But Ventress certainly got a lot of character development in her own right.

My problem with killing female characters in Star Wars stems from the fact that there aren't that many to begin with. If you kill or derail a female character without creating more, that's a problem. Creating a character just to kill her is a problem. I really wish people would stop killing female characters to create manpain, but honestly, Vos was already in enough manpain as it was in this book.

I guess this is a long way of saying Dark Disciple didn't piss me off nearly as much as Heir to the Jedi, although I did start humming "Another one bites the dust" as soon as I finished. Part of my dulled reaction might also be because I was expecting her to die.

 

I'm a hundred or so pages in so far, and I can definitely say that this reads exactly like TCW. To Golden's credit, I do hear Nika Futterman's voice in my head when reading Ventress, so that's a plus. Her prose is easy to read as well.

As someone who was originally gonna wait for this to be on sale, I'm enjoying it so far.

 

My spoiler-free review has gone live:

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertai...rgets-sith-lord-book-review-article-1.2283261

It's quite different to Cynical_Ben's, in that it's geared towards a more casual audience. But it's similarly positive!

 

I think that's a demographic of one.

But on that note, time to start avoiding this thread again until I actually finish--not that I haven't inferred a good deal from the reactions I've seen.

 

I honestly enjoyed it a great deal. Without any spoilers Vos is more or less a high tier duelist now, and their romance was believable and grew throughout the duration of the novel. It was a little weak at first but it made more sense as the novel progressed. I liked this and to the people that compare this to the show, there is no way they could've ever had any sort of chemistry and their characters weren't explored anywhere as deeply as they were here.

 

This is the reason I have not been able to abandon pre OT EU (or at least pre-rebels EU) up to this point. The show still made enough references to the other that it didn't make sense to me without at least 'some' of it. Heck, the start of TCW 'without' at least the Micro-series feels absolutely incomplete to this day. Contradictions or no, there are events in both that need to happen in some form to blend together.

Sadly, this novel only separates them that much further (without some serious leaps in logic, which I still may attempt to make, but only knowing that I'm finally reaching that near inevitable point of futility.) It's even worse when you realize this novel was 'specifically' marketed to us on the concept that George (and I assume Katie Lucas) read the Dark Horse run (which they clearly 'did' here, just chose not to write with its events in mind)

Having said that, I do intend to read this as I am 'also' very invested on where the TV show will end up. The Maul issue will be a major sorepoint for me until it gets resolved, but I guess this novel at least offers 'some' closure in ways that make it clear that season 8 was definitely going to be the show's end point.

 

Have it on kindle but I haven't even started it!
Does Dooku get a decent amount of screen time??


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I actually bought them both recently, going to read them when I get a chance. It should be interesting coming at it from that perspective.

Clearly, you don't run in the same fan circles that I do.

 

I want to see a Marvel Disney-canon comic book depicting

Spoiler

Ventress cutting down Tholme. I read stories 10 years ago on how he kept thwarting Sora Bulq and Dooku trying to kill him during the Clone Wars, to their bitter frustration. But now we know he was cut down easily by Ventress in canon. Dooku should have given her a promotion, not ditch her just because Sheev got nervous.

Maybe Ventress proceeded to turn T'ra Saa into wood later to build her log cabin.

We were never told how Tholme died in Legends, only that it was after the Clone Wars on Anzat. I'll pretend that Ventress (who survived the Clone Wars in Legends) cut him down in a petty dispute in Anzat during the Dark Times in Legends-verse, similar to how Tholme's counterpart passed in the Clone Wars in Disney-verse.

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Filoni used bits and pieces of the EU and would pay homages to it in various ways and often TCW series became a pastiche but it was always of a higher canon level that the regular EU to where the other canon levels have to be retconned to fit TCW/Lucasverse - he claims not to ignore the EU, but that may make fans feel just as angry or worse according to him.

Spoiler

I have yet to read the entire book, seems it falls apart in the last half and especially towards the end, may not be the fault of the author entirely but of the writers of the cartoon who often were hit and miss with its storytelling and strange occurrences. Would be hard to gauge much since we do not have access to the original scripts and various drafts.

I don't like is the concept of the Citadel Prison and even Stygeon( which comes off as a smaller version), being forgotten during this arc, as if the only options are kill Vos or redeem him, Yoda apparently during this time believes an evil darkside being can find their way back if they so should choose while in the OT he harbored no such thing with the forever will it dominate your destiny and the needful importance to kill Vader which was shared by Kenobi during this era. The Citadel was made to house Jedi "Who lost their way", surely other prisons like that exist that are capable of holding Jedi or Sith. Ray shields are capable of holding Jedi and Sith alike from what we saw, their Force powers are useless once under that kinda restraint.

But the book makes it clear that the Jedi know of Darth Sidious, so as this takes place after SOD, some of the Jedi thinking Maul and Dooku were the Sith is no longer the case. Yoda has known of Sidious for certain since season 6, while in AOTC the entire Council was aware of this Sith master but some were skeptical I guess during the war.

I think its possible Ventress could return as a Mother Talzin-like figure.

 

I enjoyed it. Here's some bullet-points and random thoughts from my notes:

• No mention of Aayla, or for that matter any Vos’ padawan(s). Because of the bonds with masters, I surely thought the Jedi Council would have sought them out to have been consulted or mentioned.
• “Cut off the head” philosophy - compare the discussion at the beginning with the Jedi Council and the discussion with Cham Syndulla's crew in Lords of the Sith. Very interesting to see Jedi approach to assassination vs. Rebel Cell. Very different moral approach. I find it interesting that we have two books talking about what is felt should happen when the 'head is cut off' of the Major Threat, and very soon we'll be having a book (Aftermath) that actually shows us what really did happen when this does happen. And the 'how' of it being accomplished wasn't anything anyone would have considered.
• Vos’ curious charactrization in Hunt for Ziro, for me, is now given context - and I love it now. It's made clear this isn't Republic Vos at this point - it's a Vos who is all bravado - he's a Jedi on the edge, but only conceptually, and within key bounds and philosophies of the Order. He's still a true believer in the core Jedi Code, but plays fast and loose with the surface rules. This story is the first time he truly begins to violate core principles of his code beyond mere rules, and the paradigm shift, perspective change, and devastation this brings. It leads into what I consider a brilliant adaptation of the themes of the classic Republic Quinlan Vos story.
• Length - this book covers months of time. While the author did good job on conveying and making clear time was being past, my speeding through the novel wouldn’t have the same effect as two sets of 4 episodes spread over 2 seasons, with other episodes and events inbetween.

And then some end-of-the-book thoughts and spoilers for those who still are trying to stay a little unsullied:

Spoiler

Ventress' journey foreshadowing Anakin/Vader's own - redemption is hard, its messy, and won’t be accepted by all. ‘Once you follow down that dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.
POETIC BOOKENDS - this is something that jumped out at me, and is actually one of my favorite things about the book. In TCW, we first meet Ventress, chronologically, and canonically, on Christophsis, as Dooku’s slave and minion. In DD, her final battle, her final liberation from Dooku and all slavery, also ends on Christophsis.

You may remember my analysis of Ventress' story here - well, I feel this book was a perfect compliment and suitable continuation of the themes I'd seen presented in her story.

 

So, after all that build-up, this:



Didn't happen?

Well, there can only be one response:



So unfair!

(bonus points for those who get the cultural references here)

At least A1983's liver has not survived, or has it?