Lit Dark Horse and its original characters

I had to go away for a week recently, and while I did, I read through a large portion of Republic, and then Legacy. And doing so, I realized that Dark Horse's run was filled with as many, if not more, pet characters as the other mediums. Not that it stops them from being enjoyable, I just never noticed it the first time through and on casual reads of the occasional issue.

Some people take issue with pet characters. Mara and Thrawn when it comes to Zahn. the Mandos for Traviss. And of course Saba.

Who could i possibly be talking about?

For a start, as fun as he was, Quinlan Vos. The brooding anti-hero Jedi with a tragic past, who shares many of Anakin's faults, is the friend of Obi-Wan, has Aayla Secura as a padawan, has a secret-agent Jedi as Master, a scoundrel friend, has a super-special ability, knows a little Vaapad, held the Book of the Sith, and in the end gets over most of his issues, and his family (all but Aayla) all survive in the end. His girlfriend, his new child, Tholme, and even Tholme's not-girlfriend. I really do like Quin, he is one of the more interesting EU Jedi, but his list of tropes is pretty amazing to behold.

A'Sharad Hett is a big offender in my eyes, perhaps the worst one, too. From the start, he is a super-unique character, who passes practically every test put at him, and even his faults are not faults ("It's not arrogance, its confidence."). Now, its not so bad when he is just another Jedi that occasionally pops up in Republic, but they decided to make him the big bad guy of Legacy? Really? Again, his story was pretty good, and Legacy is some of the best Star Wars EU, but reading his early stories and knowing that he would eventually end us as Darth Krayt made me frown a little.

Then there are the Jedi that somehow survive the purge, and pop up in Legacy, for utterly no reason other than because the writers wanted them to.

What they did with Aurra Sing I like, especially the rumored Anzati ancestry. I'm a big fan of vampire fiction, so Anzati are the best of both worlds for me.

But am I alone in noticing some of this? What/who do you consider the worst offenders?

 

Can't you just name any character invented by Ostrander and Duuresama?

 

to be fair to Quinlan he was supposed to die but then Lucas intervened or something.

also Aayla started out as his padawan so it's not like he was given mastership of a movie character. and iirc he only knows a little vaapad because he sucked at it and had to stop? and i mean it's not like he's Obi-Wan's bff, they're just friends because they're from the same generation of the council clique. like tbh he really is not that bad as OCs go

 

The Devaronian Version will never be surpassed as the greatest Star Wars comic ever.

 

I always thought there should have been a fourth line in that "ALL NEW SITH! ALL NEW EMPIRE! ALL NEW SKYWALKER!" Legacy advertisement that said "same old characters."

 

yeah, k'krukh and the tree showing up was pretty terrible. i didn't mind a'sharad though

 

I believe his daughter likes the character? Or something like that? As for Aayla, I was under the impression that her first appearance was in AotC, or was she int he comics prior to this?

As for vaapad, while not knowing much, we are never told exactly how much he knows... and he is only told to stop because 'he is already too close to the dark side'. It certainly makes him only one of a handful that know it of the OJO. As for Obi-Wan, they actually go back to the Stark Hyperspace war, where Obi-Wan saved his life, and I believe vice-versa (the details are already leaking away.) I mean, aside from Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan being active in major events, what are the odds? Many thousands of Jedi existed prior to Geonosis and generally had missions ranging across the galaxy... but these two meet and end up friends, to the point Quin gives Obi-Wan a shoulder to lean on in regards to venting about training Anakin. Their conversation, short as it is, ends up pretty much beginning the transition from their relationship in AotC to TCW/RotS. At the same time, Aayla advises Anakin.

I'm not knocking him, he is a very fun character, and Republic would have been worse off without him, but he really has his moments.

Yes. One of the biggest weaknesses (exaggeration) small gripes of Legacy for me, as there was simply no need to bring back so many of the old characters. A'Sharad/Krayt? Okay, I can live with it, and he was somewhat compelling. But survivors of the Jedi purge? Who never popped up to say 'hi' to Luke, or help in the Vong war? 180ish years after the events of the OT, 200 after Order 66(?)? Why? Hell, Lowbacca would have made much more sense if they had to bring back a minor but known Jedi, as he would potentially still be alive.

 

I've been saying this **** for years, except I definitely do knock them because I don't find any of them fun.

Vos is the ******* worst.

 

I'd like to hear your view, in a bit more depth, if you are willing? It's the reason I made the thread, after all.

 

A'Sharad is one thing, since he eventually goes evil. What I hate about his backstory is that Obi-wan accidentally created another galactic menace. Its not Obi-wan's fault that much, when he met A'Sharad on Tatooine he wasn't that bad, relatively speaking, but still, really? Obi-wan already feels guilty about Anakin and Vader and all that, adding the A'Sharad encounter to his history doesn't help.

I don't remember exactly how it happened, but it seemed like A'Sharad also one-upped Anakin Skywalker. Not that that is hard to do, Anakin was a problematic Jedi to say the least, but still, A'Sharad found out about Anakin's dark secret (I think the Tuskan massacre, although that's understandable somewhat, though not excusable of course). Funny enough over a century later A'Sharad rues not getting Anakin kicked out of the Jedi when he had a chance (though by then, he's not one to talk, given his stained hands by then).

I've never really been a Quinlan Vos fan (Villie is great though) and felt it was kind of boring that he and most of his close friends survived Episode III, especially after he already had a child. If he'd died and then the girlfriend gone into hiding, then that would fit the tragic atmosphere of the era.

Every author has their own pet characters, favorite culture, area of interest, preferred writing style, etc. Opinions vary, but we as fans tend to get... grumpy when those pet characters tend to outshine other more famous characters, movie characters, especially in areas they're supposed to be the best or at least skilled at. Its one reason why the Mando thing is so touchy- the heroes are clueless and weak while the Mandos are perfect and unstoppable. Revelation being such an awful book doesn't help either (random nameless Mando kneecapping Caedus and only leaving him alive on Boba's orders to have Jaina kill him, which is also a horrible way to portray the person who is supposed to be the fearsome villain of the series, unless it was an intentional parody, and people sure weren't laughing by that point in LotF). Or how Bwua'tu is such a tactical genius. Or how Mara is so powerful and skilled with the Force while Luke isn't (though by that point in time Luke hasn't had much training either). Or how Kyp was supposedly more powerful than Luke.

Then you have people like Face and Wedge Antilles- they're starfighter pilots, all around badass, but a good deal of the time they go on separate adventures or they're flying in support of the heroes, that kind of thing. Touching scenes and good writing and great plots help, although opinions differ of course.

There's a thin line between super-unique and overpowered that lead to either calls of Mary Sue (yes, I know there's no exact definition, or that the original definition is different from how its being used these days) and "best character ever!". Sometimes it depends on not one-upping movie characters. Sometimes its how likable they are. Sometimes it depends on how cool and awesome and badass they are (angsty anti-hero Quinlan Vos, which side of the Force will he fall on this week? ).

Its why I will always love KotOR more than Legacy for me, and I hadn't even played the KotOR game when I started reading the KotOR comic so I didn't have that much idea about the era. Legacy does a great job of building on the NJO and post-RotJ timeline, but I ended up... disliking Cade by the end of it. I don't hate him, he's still far better than what Jacen became, but when Cade's most frequent line is "I'm not a Jedi!" yet most of the comic is about him, rather than spending more page time on Stazi or Rogue Squadron or Fel and the IKs (though the Fel Empire got a lot of screen time too, possibly at the expense of the NJO), it got tiresome. Not to mention that when we finally get to meet some senior Jedi, two out of the three are from the Clone Wars and the third doesn't do much at all. There's some out of universe reasons for it too, for why they didn't have a Horn or Katarn or Durron but instead had the Hat, as you never know when Del Rey could've killed Corran or his kids or Kyp, but still.

Ostrander and Duursema are a great team, but I'm not as big a fan of their work as many others are. When we got a third broody, angsty anti-hero in Xesh, that was too much for me already (though DotJ had plenty of other problems that stunted its potential, not the least being the lack of time DH has).

I also dislike the Anzati- I'm not a big vampire fan, they seem overpowered sometimes (I will drink your soul!) and there was that mostly pointless Tatooine arc where you had two Anzati chasing Cade to "drink his soul".

Dark Horse has their own stable of characters, but when you have awesome characters like Zayne and the Gryph, it kind of makes up for everything else. The fact that many of the comics focus on other eras or different parts of the galaxy help a lot. Crimson Empire III hasn't been that popular, because the movie characters who do show up don't do much or act stupid or out of character while the main ones do everything. And so you don't hear Crimson Empire III being brought up often as one of Dark Horse's achievements. But at least then those are minor stories, its not like Dark Horse killed off most of Han and Leia's kids or Luke's wife, so that helps too.

 

In regards to Aayla: yes, she was introduced in Quinlan's first arc, which was release before AOTC. She was included in the film because of her popularity.

You bring up some interesting points. I hadn't noticed any of this, especially with Voss. I guess, like you said, I missed this because I had so much fun with the characters. Also, I have never been bothered with pet characters, as long as they follow the established rules of the universe. I think authors should avoid having them, but I can easily look last them. There have been instances where I have noticed them though.

 

It was so random though, like hey here's this secondary character who used to show up sometimes and not do a whole lot, now he's the embodiment of evil for some reason even though that has nothing to do with his previous characterization. When he pulled off his mask and went "I used to be A'SHARAD HETT" I wonder how many readers just stared blankly at the page and wondered if they were supposed to know who that was.

 

There's something to be said about following your own original characters, though. Corran gets a lot of the same criticism, but you know what? I loved that the X-Wing series focused on other characters and relegated the Big Three to the background.

The early Republic comics were a mess - Prelude to Rebellion was as much false advertising as The New Rebellion was. Part of it (which is a concern for future Marvel works) is that LFL obviously laid down some serious restrictions; I mean, there's the hamhanded way that Mace Windu's homeworld is repeatedly referred to while not giving it a name! Following Quinlan Vos as a main character was a smart decision, in my book. And I liked that his story was, for all intents and purposes, given a happy ending.

And then we have Zayne Karrick and the Gryph. As far as 'signature characters', they are probably the saddest to see go for now.

 

Alixen - Aayla first appeared in republic; Lucas has a thing for twi'leks liked her design so he drafted her for AotC.

re: vaapad, yeah in other words mace made him stop because he sucked

re: his friendship with obi-wan - yeah there are thousands of Jedi but there's a fairly insular generational clique surrounding the high council and their friends and padawans. Quin (and tholme) happen to be a part of this group and their masters are friends so yeah they know each other and get on well.

_Catherine_ - yeah I mean, i agree about it being a bit random, but tbh i think it did give krayt a little more of an interesting backstory than having him just be a new random fallen Jedi would. plus bits of a'sharad sort of made their way into krayt's sith, like the tats and their while tribal family thing. i dunno, it wasn't really necessary and the reveal was kind of funny in being such an anti-climax but overall i dug it

posted from my phone

 

Oh short of actually making it Vos, there was no other way to do it, as random darksider (as you just pointed out) would have been just so much worse, pointless and even more random.

Hell half the fun in X-Wing is just laughing at what an idiot Corran is and still somewhat succeeding despite of it. As you said pet characters are not necessarily a bad thing, as they help you connect to the setting and give you a protagonist/protagonists to follow.

 

Honestly, I'm sick of hearing about "pet characters." Oh no, the author made their original main characters too awesome! I only want to follow main characters that suck! Sure, it can be a legitimate problem at times when the author indulges a favorite character too much, but ninety-nine percent of the complaints I hear about supposed "pet characters" are absolute bull**** that just amount to, "Oh no, this character is too cool, and I don't like that because I don't like something about the character already/I don't like anyone being cool who isn't one of the preexisting main characters/I just get rubbed the wrong way any time an OC is better than some arbitrary average."

Oh no, Quinlan Vos knows three moves from Vaapad as a way of introducing the concept into dialogue so they can exposit about its relevance to Sora Bulq! FAVORITISM! ATTICA! ATTICA! ATTICA! I just can't get worked up over it. Oh no, Mara Jade mouths off at Luke and offers advice! Other characters should only grovel in the presence of the big three, they can't be allowed to engage them as equals! And then Corran thinks he knows better, too! How dare he have his own thoughts! What kind of storytelling would that be, if every other character wasn't clearly marked as a lesser being?

Yeah, there are instances of problems, but way too much of it is just this weird resentful fanboy bitching at any new character being allowed to be special, with no understanding that main characters in genre fiction are generally supposed to be special and stories benefit from it, for me to want to listen to the spate of it we've had recently. Quinlan Vos should be a boring nobody that nothing happens to, like Coleman Kcaj! Those are the stories I want to read! Ugh, Thrawn is so overpowered, our heroes should only have to fight dolts like Daala, that's how you make a good villain! Cry me a river.

 

Fixed it for you, sir.

EDIT: Honestly, though, I have no opinion on the Republic run or even Legacy since I've only read like, four issues of both series combined. The issues of pet characters, though... it seems to crop up a lot in this fandom. Whenever an author focuses and favors their own works rather than characters established elsewhere, they must be a pet, there's no other explanation.

Well of course they are, the author made them, they know the character as well as anyone can, their likes, dislikes, fears, joys, and they want to see that play out. A lot of authors like exploring ideas about what characters can exist and what stories can be written in the Star Wars universe without having to use an existing character. Sure, using an existing character might be a cool reference or fit the role well or whatever, but the possibilities and growth of that character are limited by their other appearances and the other authors who've already written for them who have their own stories in mind. That's the dilemma of the establishment of a unified canon.

Some authors are okay working within the confines of an existing character, like Luke or Obi-Wan. Which is fine, sometimes it turns out well, sometimes it doesn't. The problem is that the author is prevented from taking risks or making drastic events occur outside of specified points on a timeline. Which, again, sometimes work and sometimes doesn't. If an author wants to use a character in their story that they have complete freedom with, an ability to be daring and drastic, they either have to grab a character who has no established, well, character (Wedge pre-Stackpole, Jaden Korr, Boba Fett, etc) or else they have to create their own.

Quinlan, Thrawn, Mara, Corran, Ahsoka, they're all pets apparently. What else are they? Annoying, brash, uncouth, brooding, arrogant, developed, three-dimensional and entertaining to a fairly large majority of fans. Seriously. People like these characters because they don't know what's going to happen to them, they're intrigued by them, fascinated with their thoughts, antics and stories. Quinlan was supposed to be in RotS at Lucas's behest and eventually made the jump to "official" canon in TCW; Thrawn and Mara were the most popular EU characters of the pre-Prequel era and will likely also make the jump one day; Corran's journey through the Rogue Squadron books and I, Jedi is one of the most developed in all of Star Wars; and Ahsoka, for all her faults, is the most popular non-movie Star Wars character ever.

I'm not saying they're not pets. I'm just saying that being a pet isn't the horrible thing that everyone seems to play it out as. The problem arises when someone, whether a fan or the author themselves, starts to over-play their own character's mystique and abilities. Buying into the hype, as it were. No good character should be an infallible, unassailable paragon, no matter the medium or the role. Mara and Thrawn, due to their longevity as characters, both fell prey to this. Ahsoka still has virulent fans who defend her every move and motivation (I had an entertaining conversation with one such young man on Twitter after my latest Character Autopsy went live). Corran bought into his own hype, and Quinlan was preserved from his fate by George Lucas himself.

The problem swings both ways, though, because who are these characters being compared to? The characters of the films, who must be the most powerful, most skilled, most righteous and infallible characters through the entirety of Star Wars universe. No matter how good the characters in these other media might be, they can never ever ever ever ever ever ever be as awesome and cool as Luke because then they're too powerful and it diminishes the movie characters and they aren't even in the movies so they can't be that important or that good. Anything they do that even comes close to what a character in the films do is immediately the worst thing in the whole galaxy. Why?

Because they're not Luke, or Han, or Leia, or Obi-Wan, or Vader, or Palpatine, or whoever else they're compared to, and that means they automatically have to be subservient to them.

Yet, these characters have to have impact. Everyone has an impact, large or small, on their circles of influence in life, and that's true of characters in fiction as well. A good, developed character cannot exist in a fictional universe without influencing it or changing it in some way.

Rock, hard place. Walking that line between making a character with impact within the universe and a character who can't do anything that might overshadow the movie characters is an all but impossible task, because everything they do will be compared to the movie characters, even if they exist thousands of years before or hundreds of years after the movie era.

Therin lies the rub, the Catch-22 of being a Star Wars content creator. Create a character. Build the character up with some good dialogue, quality one-liners, memorable moments. Give them backstory, foreshadow the future. Then watch as the fans either let them fall into obscurity because they're not Luke Skywalker or eviscerate them because they're not Luke Skywalker.

Ugh, long post, late night. I don't even remember what point I was making anymore. Probably that no one's ever going to be happy with any of these characters because they're being compared to more than predecessor characters, they're being compared to cultural icons who shaped the imagination of one generation and heavily influenced another. Luke Skywalker is Superman; he's a legend, an archetype of the classical Hero's Journey and a symbol of the power of love to conquer darkness. Of course Mara's not worthy of him. No one would be.

 

Agreed. Where were they in the decades before that? Should have been NJO Jedi descendants.
And a PT Jedi falling to the Dark Side because of Order 66? Works for me. Probably could have been his son or something but oh well. Should have remained dead for longer too. Give the others a chance to shine.

 

LOTF was busy killing those.

 

If you're going to single out favoritism towards a character, Vos is one of the worst ones to pick. The guy always plays second fiddle to movie characters and actually fails routinely in Republic. I mean, the guy falls to the dark side and completely fails his undercover mission by doing so. I guess him getting personal attention from Dooku and Obi-Wan can perhaps be seen as favoritism, but do you hate movie characters having appearances in other comics? Does it bother you when Jahan Cross has a connection to Han Solo? Did it bother you that Alpha was some sort of best friend for Obi-Wan? Most every Star Wars story features the main characters from the films having some connection to an EU character, and its doubly true for comics, which rely on the bankability of movie characters for sales.

Also, Vos never actually outshines Obi-Wan or any other movie character, and is frequently beaten by other EU characters. Hell, he gets his ass handed to him by Agen Kolar! A movie character that we know basically nothing about. This is in stark contrast to Corran actually beating Luke in a duel because he knows how to fight dirty or somesuch.

I remember when Legacy was originally coming out, I was begging for Krayt to be Jacen. In retrospect, none of the foreshadowing lines up, but still, that would have been a better development than A'Sharad. I actually enjoy the story where Hett discovers Skywalker's dark secret. Once we got the Tusken massacre, a story involving the Tusken Jedi basically writes itself. It's also interesting that A'Sharad stops wearing his mask to accommodate Skywalker, but then returns to wearing it after the purge. There's a lot to like there, but I think his arc should have ended with him dying in the desert after having his hand chopped off. I realize that a conclusion to his story would likely not have been written if he hadn't ended up being Darth Krayt, but still.

 

Awesome, we are getting some rather interesting posts and thoughts, and a few people are even getting some stuff off their chests.

Havac, no need to be so dramatic my friend, I don't think anyone int he thread has been quite as... passionate as you were just there. As I note, I like Quinlan and find Krayt to be a somewhat interesting villain. Furthermore I love Mara (incase my avatar didn't give it away) and found Thrawn pretty interesting. I think Saba is the one author-favored ('pet' is much easier to type) character I cant stand, and that might just come down to Dennings handling of her, as a barabel Jedi is a pretty interesting concept. My reason more making the thread, and even bringing up, was more a 'why' to characters like K'kruhk and the Tree Jedi turning up in Legacy, and another OJO ended up as Krayt. Also, on a smaller scale, to point out that authors having character they particularly favor not just being a game or novel thing.

 

I think I may actually disagree with just about every post in this thread so far.

Except maybe this one:

 

Alixen, I don't mean to pick on you particularly as much as the running trend currently of ragging on Zahn's characters and Corran and whatever other pet character people can come up with in general. Mishandling favorite characters can be a legitimate concern, but I'm annoyed at the way the term is currently being devalued to just mean any character who doesn't suck and the poster has any sort of problem with, in much the same way I'm annoyed at people who scream "Mary Sue" at any character who does anything they don't like. It's not that criticisms can't be made, but that too much of the criticism seems to just be based on virulently disliking any time a main character acts too much like a main character. "Corran does everything in X-wing, what a pet!" Well, yeah, he's the main character. "Corran's Force-sensitive, how overpowered! Why don't you just marry Corran if you love him so much, Stackpole!" Well, people other than Luke are allowed to be Jedi. Would the story have been better if Riv Shiel had turned out Force-sensitive? There's room to discuss how it impacted the story and whether it was really necessary, but it's not like it turned him into Kyle Katarn overnight. It certainly made Corran a unique and memorable character, and allowed I, Jedi, and helped keep him current as a major supporting character. I can't argue with the results.

Honestly, I would go for a lot more "pet characters," because characters who are built up to be something are more memorable, and that's what they need. Scourge was a fine novel, but can anyone really remember anything about the main Jedi guy? Even without a new canon, do you really think that guy would have ever shown up again? How much better would that book have been, how much more memorable and less generic, if the character had actually stood out, been made memorable and distinctive? Anybody remember any characters from Fatal Alliance? Deceived (Malgus doesn't count, you've seen him in other stuff)? Bland, bland, bland. Had those characters been made something a little more special, someone might remember them. What do Revan, Corran Horn, Thrawn, Mara, Karrde, Ahsoka, I-5, Kyle Katarn, Face Loran, Wedge Antilles, Wes Janson, Tycho Celchu, Quinlan Vos, etc, etc, all have in common? If you said they're great, memorable fan-favorite characters who keep anchoring more stories, you're correct (well, Ahsoka's debatably great)! If you said they're decried as pet characters, you're also correct! That's not a coincidence. People give Zahn flak as if he's some kind of massive egotist for creating characters in TTT who are really good at what they do and give the big three a hard time and stand up next to them like equals, some guy obsessed with elevating his own characters. Well, guess what, establishing characters who can run with the big three as equals is good for storytelling and good for creating a big stable of memorable characters. Is Xizor over the top? Yes. It allows him to be a memorable, threatening antagonist and an interesting rival for Vader. Perry worked hard to sell him, but it made for a good story precisely because he built this guy way up and then let the heroes and Vader bring him down. And it made Xizor memorable enough for him to keep showing up in other stories. Is Dash Rendar over the top? Yes. It makes him entertaining. I'd take entertainingly over-the-top Dash Rendar over mundanely generic Jet Nebula any day. I'll take dialed-up, overachieving flyboy Corran Horn over whichever one of Odie and Erk was the pilot, because one of them has personality and achievements and the other is a nobody with no character. The grandiose villainy of Zsinj and oversold genius of Thrawn make for a thousand times better villains than the generic, unthreateningly run-of-the-mill Hethrir and Durga the Hutt, or the personality-free, undersold ciphers Seti Ashgad and Roganda and Irek Ismaren. Safely middle-of-the-road Jedi character Ki-Adi-Mundi could never realistically hold down a series and become widely popular (they tried and failed at the start of Republic); distinctive, overachieving, badass, look-at-me Quinlan Vos could.

It's not purely either/or, and it's not like there aren't excesses, but I think people need to stop a second and think about what exactly their alternative is to the dreaded pet character, and whether or not their overbroad complaints aren't basically targeting what actually makes for good franchise characters.

 

I can, but then Mander is about the only member of Luke's order who I do not openly hate.

 

I think it's especially funny when characters like Corran and Quin are disliked for being "author pets" since their defining feature is being wrong like literally all the time.