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Discussions Dark Jedi: An Oxymoron

Discussion in 'EU Community' started by Anakin's Daddy, Mar 11, 2013.

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  1. Master_Lok

    Master_Lok Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 18, 2012
    My name-sake was dangerously near Sith practices before the Sith sect existed, and yet, he believed himself a hero. I'd say Daegen Lok was a corrupted Jedi whose ego, lust for battle and loathsome mind-tricks lead him very close to the dark side. He's definitely a dark Jedi and if I go by Darth_Dreadwar's analogy of temperature, his heart was frozen.

    As far as the OP's question, I don't mind the term Dark Jedi. It tells me everything I need to know and I find Dark Jedi a lot more interesting than Sith.
     
  2. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2015
    I don't mind the term at all. It's easy to distinguish a Dark Jedi from a member of one of the Sith cults, be it the Order of the Sith Lords or its predecessors and successors. By far, the most interesting Dark Jedi to me are Quinlan Vos, the Dark Woman, and Asajj Ventress (as seen in TCW).
     
  3. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Despite her name, isn't "The Dark Woman" much closer to "Grey"? - she might be an exceedingly strict teacher, but she's still in the mainstream Jedi Order - and has never really needed "re-teaching" the way Vos did.
     
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  4. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2015
    Personally, I am conflicted about that. I almost consider simultaneously Grey and Dark, if such a thing is possible.
     
  5. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    She's more "mainstream" in some respects than the Altisian Jedi, at least. She may be the logical extrapolation of the "non-attachment doctrine" - giving up even her name.
     
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  6. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

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    Jan 5, 2011
    Just a side comment...

    She's not the logical extrapolation of non-attachment, giving up her name is actually the exact opposite of what she thinks it is. She thinks she's being humble, but what she's really doing is going "look at me, I'm so humble I gave up my name", which isn't humble at all.

    Not that the Republic comics writers were unaware of this, they most definitely were aware of her pretension.

    And that's the end of my sidebar.
     
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  7. Zurros Ka

    Zurros Ka Jedi Knight star 2

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    Feb 26, 2015
    Before I knew much of the EU, I'd heard the term dark jedi bandied about in my circles. I assumed it was kind of like a Qui Gon type Jedi. Someone who will do the right thing, but maybe break a few rules in order to do so. It took me a while to shake that definition, when i started reading more and finding out what the actual definition was
     
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  8. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2015
    For my part, I like the term Dark Jedi. I use it quite often. It is part and parcel of the fictional sociology of Star Wars EU. Whereas Sith and Jedi are names of religious orders, Dark Jedi is more of a social construction from labeling theory. Unless they are affiliated with the Sith, that is.
     
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  9. The Sith Camp

    The Sith Camp Jedi Knight star 4

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    Mar 10, 2015

    Hmm ... interesting pick ... I apologize if I jumped in on a post that is months old - BUT I cannot help but notice this ...

    However - still - surely a Dark Jedi or as you say a Dark Side User ... or a Rogue/Ex/Fallen Jedi turned Dark Side or such ... surely atleast there is a better chance for them to return to the Light Side of the Force and being somewhat 'redeemable' to a degree ... I mean in the EU Count Dooku on the secret mission to Vjun - he was nearly convinced at one point by Master Yoda to return to the Jedi Order and the Republic to help end the Clone Wars and such ... had it not been for Anakin and Obi-Wan Kenobi's intervention ... and also look at Asajj Ventress how her background in a sense ... and in the EU where she lost her Jedi Master at a young age and how in the somewhat non-canon Battle of Saleucami nevertheless highlighted how Obi-Wan Kenobi sensed there was some redemption potential in Asajj Ventress and how he was obsessed at one point to find her and 'reconvert' her and how Asajj Ventress was not 100% considered a Sith at any times by Count Dooku or Palpatine ... and how Count Dooku claimed 'Dark Jedi have Fear... and the Sith DO NOT HAVE FEAR...' and how Darth Plagueis even dismissed Dark Jedi or Jedi turned Dark into Sith as not TRUE SITH ... as TRUE SITH EMBRACE THE DARK SIDE FROM THE START! or rather as 'Sith embrace the dark from the start, focusing on the acquistion of power. We make no excuses. The actions of a Sith begin from the self and flow ...'

    And the fact well Sith by default are SELFISH, ANGRY, VIOLENT, TREACHEROUS AND GREEDY ...regardless they be Ancient Massassi Korriban Sith ... or the Phantom Menace Baneite Sith one way or another ... it ends up in cycles of raw emotional violence and such ... whereas well Dark Jedi surely atleast can be redeemable ... and whilst some Sith have even joined the Light Side of the Force ... in the end usually Sith meet a treacherous and violent horrible end ... and in particular Palpatine who 'DIDN'T GIVE A FORCE!' about anyone or anything ... just his own Powers...
     
  10. DurararaFTW

    DurararaFTW Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 5, 2014
    The problem is that the name "Dark Jedi" implies that they are still Jedi, rather then people that have left the order, however more likely they are too return then a "true Sith", whatever utterly arbitrary thing Plagueis fantasises that to be. It is a very unhelpful designation.
     
  11. The Sith Camp

    The Sith Camp Jedi Knight star 4

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    Mar 10, 2015

    Hello again! Yes - I agree with that - there is a better chance they can redeem themselves better than a Sith ... whereas a Sith well - ones like Palpatine are far from redeemable ... plus how Anakin despite being 'Darth Vader' - some say he still had enough good in him which Padme claimed and guessed right ...
     
  12. Kev-Mas_Colcha

    Kev-Mas_Colcha Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 15, 2002
    Uhh... no, considering the term "Rogue Jedi" or "Ex Jedi" refers to a Jedi who has left the order but still hasn't fallen to the Dark Side.

    They are not Sith until they are indoctrinated with the teachings and traditions of the Sith. I'd encourage you to read more before of a subject running your mouth off about it.
     
  13. DurararaFTW

    DurararaFTW Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 5, 2014
    Yes "ex" and "rogue" implies that they left the jedi. Dark Jedi by neccesity, have also left the order, but the term does not describe this. Being a Jedi and being a dark-sider are mutually exclusive. There's no such a thing as a Dark Jedi. And I'm not the one who brought whether they then go on to become the Sith into this discussion, maybe you should read more then one post in a thread before you start running your mouth off about it. And while being a former Jedi fallen to the dark side and a Sith aren't the same thing, the enemies called "Dark Jedi" that you face in KOTOR for instance, HAVE embraced the teachings and traditions of the Sith. Calling them Dark Jedi diminishes both the Jedi and the Sith.
     
  14. Kev-Mas_Colcha

    Kev-Mas_Colcha Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 15, 2002
    Dark Jedi merely implies that they have fallen to the Dark Side.

    This is an Expanded Universe Community, correct? There are several instances in the Expanded Universe where the term Dark Jedi is mentioned, even in the newer continuity, in reference to the Inquisitors. It's baffling to me that you seem to either be completely oblivious to this or just simply in denial.

    And it takes more than just learning the techniques to be Sith. In order to become a Sith, you have to be recognized by them. The Sith are very strict with their traditions, and in many times in history wouldn't just take in anybody as a Sith.

    Dark Jedi could be Sith pretenders, yes. Are they really Sith though? No they are not.
     
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  15. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 10, 2014
  16. DurararaFTW

    DurararaFTW Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 5, 2014
    YES, TC is wrong in his thinking that canon sources had refrained from using it, canon writers make all the same mistakes EU writers dumb mistakes make, all the same that's not the question this thread poses. And yeah, to be a Sith, or rather to be a Sith Lord, "Sith" is a lot more flexible a term depending on the era, you have to be recognised by them. DITTO with the Jedi. The Jedi Order doesn't have active members that have fallen to the dark side and have gone on join or to work for the Sith, or for their themselves. Only a lot of former members, who are thus no longer Jedi at all. That writers have embraced the fanterm "Dark Jedi" making actual Jedi characters call their former comrades this, I find a very poor idea. Canon or not.
     
  17. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 10, 2014
    Didnt Jinn refer to Maul as "well trained in the Jedi arts" and that led him to believe he was a Sith Lord. And Windu said something " escort the Queen back to Naboo and to discover the identity of the dark warrior".

    And if the founder of the Sith was an evil in nature or effect; sinister and morally corrupt and vicious(definition of dark) Jedi then the term accurately identifies such a being in such a context as the term Sith was likely self coined by that dark Jedi and whatever followers as would do away with being dubbed Jedi completely the further and further they moved away from light. A Sith Lord would not likely refer to himself as a Dark Jedi, unless perhaps he was keeping or encouraging a deception that he is a Sith Lord(Maul in the toon used "Crime Lord" rather than Sith to keep the fact he was a Sith Lord from public consumption. To a layman or someone else like a Jedi even obviously, the term could identity any dark force wielder well versed and trained in the Jedi arts regardless if they were former Jedi or not. Sith may not be very common knowledge although TCW rather changed this since the battles were very public between the Jedi and the Sith .
     
  18. DurararaFTW

    DurararaFTW Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 5, 2014
    If a still serving and still recognised member of the Jedi Order was also moonlighting as a Dark Lord of the Sith and the Jedi Order wasn't willing to dismiss him from the Order for this, for whatever reason, then yeah, I'd call that a Dark Jedi. That's not the common use of the term tho. If you've stopped being a Jedi, then I don't think Dark Jedi describes you. And I'd certainly think out of character of a Jedi to refer to you as such.
     
  19. Kev-Mas_Colcha

    Kev-Mas_Colcha Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 15, 2002
    You don't have to be a member of the Jedi Order to be classified as a Jedi though. That's the point that you're still not getting. It's sort of like agnosticism in terms of religion here on earth.
     
  20. DurararaFTW

    DurararaFTW Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 5, 2014
    What in canon reflects that exactly? Luke wasn't a Jedi when he learned how to control the Force, or use a lightsaber. Yoda made it clear he wouldn't be a Jedi until he faced Darth Vader and dealt with all his daddy issues. And then he would be the last Jedi because Vader certainly isn't one. Clearly, in the original intent, being a Jedi implies some pretty specific things about having overcome your own issues. If you fall to the dark side, then you're not that.
     
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  21. Kev-Mas_Colcha

    Kev-Mas_Colcha Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 15, 2002
  22. Kev-Mas_Colcha

    Kev-Mas_Colcha Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 15, 2002
    Baiting. Also use the edit feature instead of double posting
     
  23. DurararaFTW

    DurararaFTW Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 5, 2014
    We only meet Jolee when he comes back to the fold ditto Thracia. Corran leaves and then comes back to the Jedi so often that it is a legit misunderstanding, not commentary on the meaning of the word Jedi. Danni is pretty much never thought of as Jedi. Ferus Olin was a Jedi in hiding.

    The Exile's deal is very problematic, I admit that, she's considered the last of the Jedi exactly because the others are either, dead, evil or merely in hiding. Being the introductionary character means the Exile can't know any of things that are going on, making it seem like she was far further gone into hiding then any of the many supposed former Jedi that we meet in the game but the intent of the game is clear, she's the last of the Jedi because she's the last one out there trying to do what's right, stop the Sith and save the Republic. I don't think think the game succeeds in getting there but it's still tries to tell you being a Jedi is more then possessing Jedi training or not.

    None of these reasons to still be considered a Jedi apply to someone whose joined the dark side, and in most cases of those referred to as "Dark Jedi" are killing or trying to kill actual Jedi.
     
  24. Kev-Mas_Colcha

    Kev-Mas_Colcha Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 15, 2002
    No, when we met Jolee he was still very much not a part of the Jedi Order, but still practicing Jedi traditions.

    And what you are saying about the Exile is literally proving my point. Literally the only difference between a Rogue/Ex/Former Jedi is the fact that they have been separated from the Jedi Order in some way. With the Dark Jedi, you just add the fact that they fell to the Dark Side.

    Bardan Edit: Again no. Either post respectfully or not at all.
     
  25. DurararaFTW

    DurararaFTW Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 5, 2014
    When we meet him yes. And then he comes with us, travelling on a mission from the Jedi Order, with 2-3 other Jedi. The only other residents on Kashyyk were either new arrivals who don't know of his situation or Wookies who don't speak Basic. So who exactly was calling him a Jedi before he was once again, by all appearance being a Jedi?

    No, it's not. The Exile is called the LAST of the Jedi. People know the Sith are still about, don't care about those guys. People know Revan saved the Republic and isn't dead, he don't even count. Atris says the Exile isn't a Jedi, nor are the many surviving masters, SHE considers herself the last Jedi.

    Now, Atris is blind to her own faults, Kreia misconstrues to what extent the Jedi Master are merely in hiding judging by to what they're up to once we meet them, the Exile's return to the good fight is not as willing as made out to be but whatever misinformation brought these views forth doesn't change the fact that clearly, in universe, "Jedi" is held up to be more then just having trained in the Jedi arts, at the very least it is held up to be something more by the Jedi themselves.

    Them now calling darksiders "Dark Jedi", demeans that and is incredibly out of character.
     
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