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Lit "Dark Jedi" and "Sith": a blunder on the EU's part

Discussion in 'Literature' started by purplerain, Nov 5, 2013.

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  1. purplerain

    purplerain Jedi Knight star 4

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    Sep 14, 2013
    Dark Jedi: Zahn thought that "Jedi" means "Force-sensitive", so he called darksiders "Dark Jedi".

    Sith: TOTJ defined "Sith" as a species, its rulers, and the appointed successors of those rulers. The TPM novelization defined "Sith" as a cult "given over to the Dark Side" founded "almost 2000 years ago". The EU reconciled the two definitions by making "Sith" "an idea" that many have embranced over the years.

    The result of all this is a confusing mess as to what "Jedi" and "Sith" mean.
     
  2. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    Zahn didn't think that Jedi meant Force sensitive. He literally had a Jedi that fell to the dark side, ergo "Dark Jedi." And the concept of Sith wasn't well established, and what was established certainly isn't what we consider to be Sith now, which is basically what Dark Jedi was back then.
     
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  3. purplerain

    purplerain Jedi Knight star 4

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    Sep 14, 2013
    Then why does the back cover of HTTE say "pregnant win Jedi twins"?
     
  4. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    Zahn doesn't write the back cover. And they were Jedi twins.
     
  5. purplerain

    purplerain Jedi Knight star 4

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    Sep 14, 2013
    How is an unborn baby a Jedi?
     
  6. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
  7. purplerain

    purplerain Jedi Knight star 4

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    Sep 14, 2013
    It's a very stupid metaphor.
     
  8. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    Calling them Jedi twins is a lot less clunky and much easier for the casual reader to understand than calling them "Force sensitive twins."
     
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  9. fett 4

    fett 4 Force Ghost star 5

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    Jan 2, 2000
    There called dark Jedi because no one knew what a Sith was way back in 1991.

    To be honest if you have only watched the PT films you wouldn't know what a Sith is either.
     
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  10. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jun 2, 2007
    Not all Dark Jedi are Sith, for what it's worth.
     
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  11. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 29, 2005
    They're Jedi twins because they're going to grow up to be Jedi.

    And be awesome and cool and have long lives filled with heroic adventure and never fall to the dark side or kill each other.
     
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  12. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    "My children are going to have normal family stories to tell their children, little funny stories about everyday nothings, stories where no one dies too young or has to carry a burden of shame."

    Edit: For good measure:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  13. FTeik

    FTeik Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Nov 7, 2000
    I really wish at least one of Leia's kids would have [hl=black]pants[/hl] on that and became an accountant.:mad:
     
  14. Mechalich

    Mechalich Jedi Knight star 4

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    Feb 2, 2010
    It's also worth noting that Zahn put those words in the mouth of C'baoth - who was exactly the kind of arrogant person to consider 'Force-sensitive' and 'Jedi' functionally equivalent terms.

    More broadly, yes, there is some confusion on the labels of Dark Jedi versus Sith. Sith are a subclass of Dark Jedi. If this was not the case, and all Dark Jedi were Sith, the EU would have had to invent another term to describe those who fell to the dark side but shifted outside the specific precepts of Sith teachings. The only real 'mistake' is that, due to unclear input in earlier materials the terms are applied somewhat inconsistently and certain characters have sort of retroactively been made Sith, but it's hardly one of the EUs larger blunders.
     
  15. FTeik

    FTeik Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Nov 7, 2000
    To use religious terminology: A "dark" or "fallen" Jedi is a sinner, a Sith is a Satanist.
     
  16. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 16, 2007
    Wasn't the TOTJ Sith-as-species back story Lucas's idea?
     
  17. purplerain

    purplerain Jedi Knight star 4

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    Sep 14, 2013
    Exactly my point.
    No.
     
  18. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    Dark Jedi are Jedi that have fallen to the Dark Side of the Force. But they were Jedi once, devoted to the Light and good people.

    Sith are a level beyond Dark Jedi, both in power and in evil. Also, many Sith were never Jedi.

    Maul and Sidious were never Jedi. Anakin and Dooku were Jedi that fell, so they are technically Dark Jedi, but the fact that they became Sith Lords, makes them so much more than mere Dark Jedi .
     
  19. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 16, 2007
    Lucas had some level of direct involvement and oversight in the TOTJ planning phase. He was much more hands-on with the EU in those days so if it hadn't meshed with his ephemeral "vision" he would have had it changed.
     
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  20. purplerain

    purplerain Jedi Knight star 4

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    Sep 14, 2013
    GL simply told Veitch and KJA that the "Dark Lords of the Sith" are an ancient lineage of fallen Jedi. The reason he didn't object to there being a SIth species is that TOTJ takes place so long before the movies that GL figured anything could change in between TOTJ and TPM.
     
  21. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 16, 2007
    Anyway this Dark Jedi argument is almost as old as I am and has never made any sense to me. Jedi are the most visible and prolific Force-users in the galaxy, it doesn't not make sense that one of the most common terms for a dark-side Force-user would be "Dark Jedi." Especially when the most frequent usage of that term is in the Rebellion and New Republic eras, when a good deal of the Imperial darksiders terrorizing the galaxy actually were former Jedi who had fallen to the dark side. At the same time, the real Jedi were almost entirely absent from those eras, effectively replaced by Vader and the Emperor's dark side cabal as the most visible Force-users in the galaxy.

    The films themselves suggest the existence of dark side-users outside the Sith, so you have to call them something. "Darksider" is a pretty bland and tasteless term that sounds like it could easily fit into any generic fantasy world. "Dark Jedi" by contrast has a number of interesting connotations and in context is often more apropos than not. It hardly ever even gets used anymore since now everything has to be Sith Sith Sith all the time Sith, so I don't really see it as an issue worth complaining about.
     
  22. purplerain

    purplerain Jedi Knight star 4

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    Sep 14, 2013
    The problem is that the EU has led some to believe that a darksider is inherently a Sith (I know that's not true), and indoctrination in the EU has led some to interpret the movies to imply the same.
     
  23. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

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    Sep 2, 2012
    If no EU source has said outright "A darksider is inherently a Sith" - is it fair to say "the EU's leading people to believe things" ?
     
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  24. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 17, 2011
    What? No it hasn't. The EU's always made it very clear when someone's a Sith.
     
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  25. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 16, 2007
    There were almost no Sith in the EU before 1999, just the ancient ones in TOTJ, the ghosts in JAT and Empire's End, and Lumiya in the Marvel comics. Since the prequels, the EU has just had a lot of Sith instead of a lot non-Sith darksiders, but I can't think of where they've ever conflated the two. Except Asajj Ventress maybe.

    Also all the darksiders in the movies are Sith so I'm not sure what there is for people to misinterpret.
     
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