Lit "Dark Jedi" and "Sith": a blunder on the EU's part

Discussion in 'Literature' started by purplerain, Nov 5, 2013.

  1. purplerain Force Ghost

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    Sep 14, 2013
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    Dark Jedi: Zahn thought that "Jedi" means "Force-sensitive", so he called darksiders "Dark Jedi".

    Sith: TOTJ defined "Sith" as a species, its rulers, and the appointed successors of those rulers. The TPM novelization defined "Sith" as a cult "given over to the Dark Side" founded "almost 2000 years ago". The EU reconciled the two definitions by making "Sith" "an idea" that many have embranced over the years.

    The result of all this is a confusing mess as to what "Jedi" and "Sith" mean.
    Last edited by purplerain, Nov 5, 2013
  2. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Zahn didn't think that Jedi meant Force sensitive. He literally had a Jedi that fell to the dark side, ergo "Dark Jedi." And the concept of Sith wasn't well established, and what was established certainly isn't what we consider to be Sith now, which is basically what Dark Jedi was back then.
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  3. purplerain Force Ghost

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    Then why does the back cover of HTTE say "pregnant win Jedi twins"?
  4. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Zahn doesn't write the back cover. And they were Jedi twins.
  5. purplerain Force Ghost

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    How is an unborn baby a Jedi?
  6. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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  7. purplerain Force Ghost

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    It's a very stupid metaphor.
  8. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Calling them Jedi twins is a lot less clunky and much easier for the casual reader to understand than calling them "Force sensitive twins."
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  9. fett 4 Chosen One

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    Jan 2, 2000
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    There called dark Jedi because no one knew what a Sith was way back in 1991.

    To be honest if you have only watched the PT films you wouldn't know what a Sith is either.
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  10. timmoishere Force Ghost

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    Not all Dark Jedi are Sith, for what it's worth.
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  11. Havac Former Moderator

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    They're Jedi twins because they're going to grow up to be Jedi.

    And be awesome and cool and have long lives filled with heroic adventure and never fall to the dark side or kill each other.
    Darth_Foo, Ulicus, HEDGESMFG and 22 others like this.
  12. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    "My children are going to have normal family stories to tell their children, little funny stories about everyday nothings, stories where no one dies too young or has to carry a burden of shame."

    Edit: For good measure:
    [IMG]
    [IMG]
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Nov 5, 2013
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  13. FTeik Force Ghost

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    Nov 7, 2000
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    I really wish at least one of Leia's kids would have pants on that and became an accountant.:mad:
    Last edited by Havac, Nov 6, 2013
  14. Mechalich Force Ghost

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    It's also worth noting that Zahn put those words in the mouth of C'baoth - who was exactly the kind of arrogant person to consider 'Force-sensitive' and 'Jedi' functionally equivalent terms.

    More broadly, yes, there is some confusion on the labels of Dark Jedi versus Sith. Sith are a subclass of Dark Jedi. If this was not the case, and all Dark Jedi were Sith, the EU would have had to invent another term to describe those who fell to the dark side but shifted outside the specific precepts of Sith teachings. The only real 'mistake' is that, due to unclear input in earlier materials the terms are applied somewhat inconsistently and certain characters have sort of retroactively been made Sith, but it's hardly one of the EUs larger blunders.
  15. FTeik Force Ghost

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    To use religious terminology: A "dark" or "fallen" Jedi is a sinner, a Sith is a Satanist.
  16. _Catherine_ Chosen One

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    Wasn't the TOTJ Sith-as-species back story Lucas's idea?
  17. purplerain Force Ghost

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    Exactly my point.
    No.
  18. Vialco Force Ghost

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    Dark Jedi are Jedi that have fallen to the Dark Side of the Force. But they were Jedi once, devoted to the Light and good people.

    Sith are a level beyond Dark Jedi, both in power and in evil. Also, many Sith were never Jedi.

    Maul and Sidious were never Jedi. Anakin and Dooku were Jedi that fell, so they are technically Dark Jedi, but the fact that they became Sith Lords, makes them so much more than mere Dark Jedi .
  19. _Catherine_ Chosen One

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    Lucas had some level of direct involvement and oversight in the TOTJ planning phase. He was much more hands-on with the EU in those days so if it hadn't meshed with his ephemeral "vision" he would have had it changed.
    Skywalker Thing likes this.
  20. purplerain Force Ghost

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    GL simply told Veitch and KJA that the "Dark Lords of the Sith" are an ancient lineage of fallen Jedi. The reason he didn't object to there being a SIth species is that TOTJ takes place so long before the movies that GL figured anything could change in between TOTJ and TPM.
  21. _Catherine_ Chosen One

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    Anyway this Dark Jedi argument is almost as old as I am and has never made any sense to me. Jedi are the most visible and prolific Force-users in the galaxy, it doesn't not make sense that one of the most common terms for a dark-side Force-user would be "Dark Jedi." Especially when the most frequent usage of that term is in the Rebellion and New Republic eras, when a good deal of the Imperial darksiders terrorizing the galaxy actually were former Jedi who had fallen to the dark side. At the same time, the real Jedi were almost entirely absent from those eras, effectively replaced by Vader and the Emperor's dark side cabal as the most visible Force-users in the galaxy.

    The films themselves suggest the existence of dark side-users outside the Sith, so you have to call them something. "Darksider" is a pretty bland and tasteless term that sounds like it could easily fit into any generic fantasy world. "Dark Jedi" by contrast has a number of interesting connotations and in context is often more apropos than not. It hardly ever even gets used anymore since now everything has to be Sith Sith Sith all the time Sith, so I don't really see it as an issue worth complaining about.
  22. purplerain Force Ghost

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    Sep 14, 2013
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    The problem is that the EU has led some to believe that a darksider is inherently a Sith (I know that's not true), and indoctrination in the EU has led some to interpret the movies to imply the same.
    Last edited by purplerain, Nov 6, 2013
  23. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    If no EU source has said outright "A darksider is inherently a Sith" - is it fair to say "the EU's leading people to believe things" ?
    Mia Mesharad likes this.
  24. DarthJenari Force Ghost

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    What? No it hasn't. The EU's always made it very clear when someone's a Sith.
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  25. _Catherine_ Chosen One

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    There were almost no Sith in the EU before 1999, just the ancient ones in TOTJ, the ghosts in JAT and Empire's End, and Lumiya in the Marvel comics. Since the prequels, the EU has just had a lot of Sith instead of a lot non-Sith darksiders, but I can't think of where they've ever conflated the two. Except Asajj Ventress maybe.

    Also all the darksiders in the movies are Sith so I'm not sure what there is for people to misinterpret.