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Lit Darth Caedus & Kylo Ren - A thematic comparison

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Charlemagne19, Mar 20, 2018.

  1. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

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    Oct 13, 2003
    But it will probably be true.
     
  2. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    Streen, Kam and Tionne seem to have taken charge over teaching at the Academy as early as the Black Fleet Crisis, and even then Luke only returns to deal with the class including his niece and nephews.

    But otherwise... Brakiss, and Gantoris all went bad or were Imperial spies. Corran and Kyle all left... Dorsk 81, Clighal, Kirana Ti and Madurrin with Streen, Kam and Tionne all turned out more than fine. Out of the original 10 of twelve we know.


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  3. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    Well, Luke says Ben left with a handful of his students. Which implies 5+. Which means that at least half of Luke's original class were morally flexible enough to join Ben Solo after he "killed" Luke Skywalker.
     
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  4. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    And I’m saying we don’t know how long between the foundation of the NJO and the destruction of the order there was.

    So yes, 5+ students left with Ben.

    But I’d love to see proof that there were twelve students at the time...? Let alone that all 5+ were among the original 12?

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    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018
  5. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

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    Oct 13, 2003
    No proof yet, but I don't see how Disney doesn't go that route, especially since Luke started training the Jedi so late in this timeline.

    Also, I disagree with the idea that "only good students = no story." There could always be darksiders emerging from outside the Jedi, like the Sorcerers of Rhand.
     
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  6. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 5, 2017
    I will be astonished if students from Luke's first class don't start popping up in the EU after Episode IX comes out.
     
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  7. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    I’m expecting as much too. Maybe even some to survive the destruction of the NJO and appear long enough tying cross paths with Rey and die...


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  8. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 5, 2017
    If there is one thing that the NEU has been very good about, it's avoiding the Tan Skywalker and Halagad Ventor sorta situations that we got in the stuff that was coming out between OT movies - which means by necessity they need to be cautious in the stories they tell until the trilogy is done.
     
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  9. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    I feel like it can't have been very long. Luke basically saw the potential in his nephew and persuaded Han and Leia to let him train Ben. He took Ben and a dozen others and started his academy. At a certain point in Ben's training, Luke decided his nephew was showing too many warning signs of going dark and decided to creep into his bedroom in the middle of the night and peer into his mind. We all know how that ended.

    But given that every one of Luke's students was still at his Training Temple and not out on missions, suggests to me that his students were only partially trained. Ben had a lightsaber, but we know his training wasn't complete. Given that Luke's own training was extremely compact, I can't see him taking too long to train his apprentices up, even when he had to divide his time among thirteen pupils. I'd estimate at the least a year and at the very most, perhaps three, that Luke's temple was around.

    I do wonder how he built it and whether there were any staff or other individuals present aside from the lone Master and thirteen Padawans. Luke kept the location and very existence of the Temple a secret from all outsiders, to the point that even Leia doesn't know where her son is being trained.

    I have to say, the whole way Luke went about trying to revive the Jedi was flawed from the start. I'm not surprise at all that it failed.
     
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  10. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    Isn't it exactly the same way he went about it in Legends?
     
  11. MrDarth0

    MrDarth0 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 3, 2015
    After I read your post, I just realised the whole Luke creeping into Ben's room in the middle of the night and going through his mind without permission can be interpreted as metaphor for uncle Luke sexually abusing his nephew.
     
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  12. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    Yeah, that particular sequence seemed very creepy to me. Luke has no business being in his adult nephew's bedroom in the middle of the night, probing his mind while he sleeps.

    It's a very poor and stupid decision on Luke's part and I like to draw attention to it.

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  13. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 10, 2014
    The Jedi are always seeking to kill Sith, in a form of religious persecution and vice versa. That was why the Sith wanted revenge, how Sidious raised Maul on(mission to Malachor), they were avenging themselves and to Maul he was doing what was justifiable. . The Jedi and the Sith seem to have been wiping eachother out for generations and taking turns almost going extinct. Luke was just being a Jedi and carrying on that age old conflict and attempting to prevent another Sith-like being from breaking the balance of peace that apparently followed ROTJ.

    For me the movie and story completely falls apart in that Yoda is actually now the same insane Dagobah hermit he pretended to me, instead of it being and act. Rey is always angry, conflicted, impulsive, fearful and overall emotional and driven by passions and prospect of a potential love interest even. Moreover she's too old for Jedi training. On top of that she almost cracked open the back of Luke's head in a fit of anger and rage. She apparently stole the sacred Jedi texts, and it made Luke look like an idiot as if he did not know they were missing. It made Yoda come across as wanting to see Luke set himself up on fire alongside the tree/texts all for nothing. I don't know about Yoda. And the SW consistency, it seems a load of bunk, just simple good vs bad and who the directors tell you whats what .

    I think the main difference was that EU Luke had a knack and better success rate for turning antagonistic people from the Dark Side to the Light to join his academy or whatever. There was not a difference in that he lost students since he pretty much always had former students/apprentices that turned out or went really bad and worked alongside Imperial factions and often almost conquered the galaxy all over again like we see the First Order. And of course in the EU we had the Dark Empire storyline.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
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  14. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    Maybe that's because the Sith are evil and always trying to rule the Galaxy with fear and oppression. The Sith are unnatural. Their very existence unbalances the Force.
     
  15. Anedon

    Anedon Jedi Master star 4

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    May 11, 2016
    You could also say the oppositte that the Jedi are unatural. If you look at nature its survival of the fittest and might makes right. And I guess it could be said that most beings tend to at their heart, egoistic. The Sith only follow these patterns, while its the Jedi who say that this, the natrual order of things, is wrong and that those who follow it, need to die.
    (Not necessary my opinion but might be worth thinking, about I guess)
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  16. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    The Sith do believe in those things. But they are wrong. Survival of the fittest is an inherently selfish philosophy. Might does not make right.

    The Sith have some admirable ideas. Some amount of ambition is good. Some amount of strength is good. And to an extent, it's good to let the stronger succeed. It encourages those less talented to try harder. In moderation.

    The problem with the Sith is that there is no compromise with them. There is no mercy. There is no compassion.

    None.

    The Sith believes in absolutes. There is nothing they won't do to achieve their goals. They have no restraint, no tenderness, no remorse. They will destroy whoever gets in their way and pursue their ambitions at all costs.

    That's what makes the Sith evil and why the Jedi have to stop them.

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  17. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Sith doctrine is fundamentally one of individualism.

    And the sith code I think does have merits-remember a lot of beings(both in RL and the GFFA) are subdued under various chains-whether that be addiction, abuse, depression, pain, lack of self confidence etc...

    Sith doctrine encourages one to throw off one's chains and achieve self actualization.
     
  18. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 10, 2014
    Sith are evil since the perspective is handed to the audience as they're the fictional malevolent antagonists in the story and often shown to be basically sadistic sociopathic and psychopathic villains to get the heroes from point A to point B and they wear black and work for an "Empire". From what I see of both the Jedi and the Sith are both are flawed and both hide behind political organizations and armies and both are driven and prone to violence to maintain their status as the only religion or the one that is behind the largest government controlling the galaxy.

    I think they're both religious fanatics and from what we see its basically a snake swallowing its own tail story-line between the two or between the Republic vs Separatists or the Shadow Collective vs the Separatists vs the Republic or the Empire vs the Alliance or the New Republic or Resistance vs the First Order(Imperial remnant forces) or broader the Light and the Dark . All interconnected and all a big civil war and farce.

    Although we don't really know much at the early Sith buts its likely the Jedi would've not allowed heretics to roam around and nor would Sith let Jedi stand in their ways of forging their own nations and whatever. There does not appear to be any religious freedom involved with the Jedi, as Jedi are like Christians or Jews and would not view pagans as worthy and in some cases attempt to destroy or convert

    The Dark Side is natural since it occurs in nature and its based on natural and very human emotions, primarily basically passion. The Sith act out outside the accepted modern sentimentalies and moralities and their politics appear to basically autocratic and totalitarian rather than democratic.

    I think the Jedi have all the positive and negative traits of Abrahamic religions while the Sith have the positive and negative traits of Ancient Pagan religions. Probably the balance is somewhere between the two since the supernatural or the Force could be interpreted as just the common deity or attempt to understand a greater power - but Star Wars canon prevents there being any truly "gray" area, you're either good or bad or just a bit of both if you're a Force user(which included the villainous Nightsisters and Nightbrothers whom were on the side of chaos or "evil" aka The Dark Side of the Force).
     
  19. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

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    Oct 13, 2003
    The Sith are not based on pagan religions, and the Jedi are not based solely or even mostly on Abrahamic religions. More than anything else, the Sith philosophy is closest to Ayn Rand’s Objectivism or LeVey’s atheistic Satanism. It’s just pure worship of self and of the elite movers and shakers of society being entitled to everything.
     
  20. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    The Jedi practice religious freedom.

    The Sith do not.

    Therefore the Jedi persecute the Sith because their religion is, "exterminate the Jedi."
     
  21. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 10, 2014
    I oversimplified things to some extent since Star Wars is this big fantasy and amalgamation , but it remains the same thing.



    The Star Wars universe's the Force religion is based on God, watch Moyer's interview with Lucas or read Dale Pollacks biography of Lucas. So yes, Abrahamic religions. Lucas & others threw in other elements from Shamanism , Buddhism or some other western & eastern religion(past or present) or philosophies into formatting his or their ideas. But ideas that could be reconciled or meld with Lucas' beliefs in God and Biblical religiosity just as long the general mythology is retold as Star Wars to lead one to God and back to the Bible. The core is Judeo-Christian as far as faith and inspiration. The Sith are basically these ancient or primitive religions comprised of Chthonic witchcraft & Classical Paganism, which may includes black magic shamanism along with esoteric or occult. Satanism already incorporates the Abrahamic concept of Satan(mainly Christian and Muslim beliefs in that being which often incorporated Pagan religions and turned them into demons and devils ). Satanism also beliefs & gods from other past pagan religions. To Christians, Satanism is just a form of Paganism and at any rate heresy & blaspheme.


    The Sith Code is primarily reversed Jedi Code and partly inspired from Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf not LeVay.

    Which we do know that the Sith were once former Jedi(as were the Order Aspectu), and that Jedi sought to stamp them out for their beliefs as they were heretics of the faith and apparently prone to disturbing the peace - by creating wars and general chaos & mischief. But we don't know really anything about the Sith aside from them being the bad guys of the story and usually the aggressor . Objectively speaking, its highly doubtful that they see themselves as bad guys and they would likely believe that their faith is the good one or right path. Mostly everything boils down to point of view and the inability to leave in peace between the two opposing forces that share the same deity. Now that their apparently extinct, we just have the Dark Side and characters like Snoke and Ren who are basically wanna-be Sith.
     
  22. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    The SIth Code seems perfectly moral to me.

    It's just everyone seems to have interpreted it the way Nieztsche's work was by his deranged Nazi wife.

    Being strong is not wrong, being free is not wrong.

    Being a monster to others is.

    Someone seems to have added that.
     
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