ST Darth Luke?

Could Luke Skywalker become the new Darth Vader?

Episode 7 supposedly starts with Luke's severed hand falling to the ground, still clutching his lightsaber. Also, there are rumors that Vader reappears in the movie. The assumption has been that these are flashbacks.

Luke Skywalker lost that hand at a critical crossroads in his life. His father, Vader, told him they could bring order to the empire and rule together. Luke rejected the plea and fell with no reasonable hope of surviving.

The assumption at the end of the series was that the evil empire was overthrown and everyone lived happily ever after. Did they? Or did the political problems that doomed the old republic prove as intractable as ever? The galaxy could have easily fallen into chaos after the empire collapsed. After all, if everyone lived happily ever after, why have an episode 7?

It's no great feat of rationalization to believe that the the biggest problem with the empire was the emperor, Palpatine. Vader offered an alternative after disarming his son: "Luke. You can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny. Join me, and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son. Come with me. It is the only way."

If Luke had accepted this offer, it is very likely that he would not have been responsible for his own father's death. He would not have had to kill Han or Leia either, and would have accepted their loathing as a price to pay for their survival. After all, the odds were still greatly against the rebellion when Vader made the plea. No one knew the odds against the rebellion and the people in it more than Luke, for Luke was a very reluctant "last hope."

In hindsight, and depending on events over 30 years, he could have wondered if he'd taken the right path.

 

No.

 

You guys are really cruel sometimes.

 

Besides the fact that it has already been discussed at length, to repaint Anakin's story and apply it to Luke is an absurd idea.

 

I try not to be. But Luke turning bad is one concept I will always flat-out reject. That was the focal point of RotJ, IMO- Luke had the power of the darkside within his grasp, and he turned it down (going so far as to make himself defenseless by throwing his lightsaber aside). He would rather be killed than turn. Luke is the White Knight of the saga, and it would be devastating to the outlook of the series to change that.

Between this and the idea of other Jedi surviving in the background besides Yoda and Obi-Wan, it seems like a lot of people don't really "get" RotJ. Maybe they're distracted by the Ewoks? (lol)

 

I don't want an Evil Luke, it would be too similar to Anakin's story and render the OT mute. He should learn from the mistakes of Anakin and more importantly, the Jedi Order's mistakes which lead to Anakin falling in the first place. If we end up seeing another Jedi who has shunned all attachment, becomes embroiled in galactic policies and is afraid to use his power I will be disappointed.

 

Agreed. Luke should epitomise the best of what it means to be a Jedi, not the worst.

 

Wholeheartedly agree. Luke needs to continue as "a" hero in the saga, though it seems unlikely he will be "the" hero of the ST.

These stories are simple - take the dialogue at face value. "I am a Jedi, like my father before me." Even there, Luke is talking not to the Emperor so much as he is Anakin. Simple, aw-shucks stuff that defines the character's character, and provokes a response from the listener (Vader/Anakin). To change Luke's character in the ST will be terribly disappointing. IMO, the real problem with the PT is that there was no genuine hero to root for - had the scripts for I and II been written better one might have rooted for Anakin, and then his turn in III would have been devastating. But by III, he wasn't someone we really cared about - we just stuck around to see how he finally became Vader.

But Luke is different - when these movies were first released, every kid wanted to be Luke. When my son was 4 - 5 years old, he told everyone his name was Luke. To screw around with that White Knight image now - well, that would be the end of my lifelong admiration for all things Star Wars movies, and I will concentrate instead on the Incredibles 2....

 

We've seen dark side Luke already in ROTJ.

- wearing all black - and with the black cloak in Jabba's palace. Not exactly Jedi clothes there - more Sith like.
- Luke force chokes the Gamorrean Guards - dark side move
- Luke's dialogue with Jabba: "It's your choice, but I warn you not to underestimate my power." very Sith/Vader quote there. Jedi don't talk like that.
- and of course Luke losing it after Vader says Leia will turn to the dark side.
Only when Luke cuts off Vader's hand and sees that he has become very much like Vader (both in spirit and mechanically) that he throws his sabre away and then declares that he is a Jedi.

 

Wow! After re-watching that clip is certainly seems like he did. I always thought it was a mind-trick but you clearly see their hands go to their throats.

 

I'll bite.

First off, welcome to the boards! I see you joined today. First post??

I actually posted about this yesterday, so I'll back you up a little. *Could* this happen? I say yes. Why? Well here's what we know:

-- Luke saw his face as the embodiment of evil in the mask of Vader, in the cave on Dagobah. Maybe this was not just a test, but a vision of things to come. Yoda did tell Luke that what's inside the cave is only what he brings with him.

-- Luke *has* touched the Dark Side before, and its on film. In the final duel with Vader, when his sister was threatened, he lashed out in rage and hatred, pummeling Vader to the point of begging for his life before, "oh crap, I'm a Jedi like my father before me..." Yes he rejects it, (at the time) but the path towards the Dark Side began right there in the Emperor's chamber.

-- *What if* following the events of RotJ, Luke finds himself upset / depressed that he was unable to physically save his father? I mean, he did the impossible. He brought Anakin Skywalker back! But... In the blink of an eye he was gone. No playing catch, no cub scouts, (or whatever.) He saved his father and lost him 2 seconds later. Pretty sad if you ask me.

-- *What if*... He liked it? Hey, Luke is a young guy, (during RotJ.) He's got his head screwed on right and seems like an outstanding guy but... He just became the most powerful, undisputed guy in the galaxy at a time when there was a HUGE power vacuum.

Just a few points on why it could happen. I kinda like the idea. I'm not in love with it and I don't really see it happening, but I do like it the idea of Luke being the bad guy a universe more than I like the thought of Darth EU, er I mean Plagueis.

 

Agreed, but we don't have to pounce on each other in here.

 

Yep.

Once again proving the wisdom of reading other threads in a forum before posting there. Sorry about that.

The Dark Side moves that a reply referenced in RotJ are something I'd not considered before, and your point about the face on Dagobah is also something I hadn't considered.

All in all, however, I'm actually still on the side of those who think Luke is the "White Knight" who will never fall. But I am wondering now if Luke won't be severely tempted and redeemed at the last moment.

 

No worries. It was just a one-off thing, not a thread I started. I wouldn't expect you to hunt through hundreds and hundreds of posts just to make sure.

I'm really glad DV75 brought up the moments at Jabba's palace. Completely slipped my mind. Heck, when Luke first enters the front door with the hood up, even before he chokes out the guards, he looks VERY Sithy.

Here's a thought... Who says he needs to be redeemed? I don't know how the circumstances could play out but what if, in order to save... I dunno, his friends, some political leader... The galaxy... What if the only way to do said thing is to indulge in those dark powers, thus turn completely?

Again, welcome to the boards!

 

Really?? Wearing all black means you're consumed by the dark side? Wow. I just took it as reflecting his more serious/mature outlook on life after the encounter with Vader at Bespin.

He choked but didn't kill them (or at least it's not clear on screen). I don't think Force choking HAS to be a "dark side only" power, though it is obviously used primarily by Sith. I never had a problem with it as it quickly moved them out of his way without harming/killing them (besides temporary discomfort). That seems in line with Jedi philosophy.

Luke can't speak however he wants? Again, I think Luke is just trying to be direct and avoid unnecessary loss of life, and is genuinely warning Jabba. This turns out to be true as Jabba and his entourage are wiped out at the Battle of the Great Pit of Carkoon.

Okay, Luke is definitely tempted by the dark side at the end of the RotJ duel. He uses it for a few moments to defeat Vader, but immediately realizes it after lopping off Vader's saber hand and throws his own saber aside to avoid going down the dark path himself.

He did not spiritually become like Vader. It is easy for someone who has never experienced temptation to continue being "good." Only those who have been tempted by evil and reject it can really be lauded for being "good." Luke passed that test with flying colors, sacrificing himself for his father, who in turn sacrificed himself to save Luke.

 

Your generalizations aside, Luke's whole demeanor and look was to tease that he will fully turn to the dark side. Common knowledge to those who read about what went into making ROTJ.

Yes, his attire had a lot to do with that. Including his dialogue not to mention his actions. Was he full on Sith?

No, of course not. But he pretty much was there when he cut Vader's hand off. You need not look further than the look on his face upon taking Vader down. Pure evil right there - and Palpatine knew it. Until Luke realized that he had become - like father, like son. That he went down the 'Vader' path.

To take Luke down the dark side path again and have him become a full Sith would really cheapen the impact of that scene in ROTJ. He had motive to go down that path back then, why do it 30 years later??

 

But was all that sacrifice worth it? What was the result for the galaxy?

What are the stakes for the galaxy, beyond whether Luke is "good" or "bad"?

Under the right circumstances, a "good guy" could see "falling" as a good thing -- another type of sacrifice of himself.

 

No. Dumb idea.

 

What generalizations? You mean interpretations? It seems you have interpreted RotJ at least as much as me... and I have no problem with you having your opinions, just like I have mine.

You sure seem to put a lot of faith in appearances. Not to mention, who thinks that "making of" material supersedes obvious story elements?

Luke chopping off a Sith's hand is a far cry from Anakin's actions even before he officially became Vader (slaughtering the Tuskens, executing Dooku, just to name two). Luke put his first foot on the path, didn't like it, and turned around. It was the opposite of "like father, like son," as he DIDN'T make the mistake his father did.

 

The secret of playing a villain is to know that he doesn't see himself as a villain. He sees himself as someone trying to do right, or right a great wrong.

 

Yes, and we got that with Anakin in the PT, though GL did a horrible job of making him relatable/likable to the audience.

 

Luke showing a bit of anger and using the dark side, yeah.

However, Luke becoming the villain and attempting to revive the Sith? HELL NO. It would make no sense.

 

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No, of course not. But he pretty much was there when he cut Vader's hand off. You need not look further than the look on his face upon taking Vader down. Pure evil right there - and Palpatine knew it. Until Luke realized that he had become - like father, like son. That he went down the 'Vader' path.
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Yes, in that moment you see it. For a moment Luke seems intoxicated by the power that his anger has unleashed, but then he realises (visually indicated by the view of Vader's severed mechanical hand and Luke looking at his own mechanical hand) the trap that he is in danger of falling into. He steps back, throws away his lightsabre and tells the Emperor that he has failed and that he, Luke, is a Jedi like his father before him.

 

Luke becoming a Vader would definitely refute the poignancy of the OT, so I hope not. On the flipside, Luke being in a static, non-evolving trajectory could be boring but it depends on the significance of the role in relation to the ST narrative.

If he does something "bad/dark" for the greater good, I guess it could be interesting. But I am not sure, philosophically how that would be consistent with the light side. Well, it can't. IDK, having him further tortured/conflicted spiritually after what he went through in Empire and Jedi seems like a bit much. But, to be fair, you have to have drama in order for there to be drama. I think this all points to the fact that the first 6 films told a complete story and the ST is not necessary. However, it is def something I look forward to with enthusiasm and cautious optimism and just hope it honors what came before but also be its own thing. I want my (cup)cake and eat it too. Heck, I want a pile of cupcakes! : )