Full Series Darth Maul in Star Wars Rebels

To be fair, Filoni did rightly point out Vader v Maul would fan service of the worse kind. There was no reason for them to face each other.

But the more I look at Maul's inclusion in Rebels, the more it fits in with Ahsoka and Rex. Dave was denied a fitting 'end' to TCW and is somewhat doing it in Rebels. If anymore former TCW characters appear in Rebels, I would not be surprised to see them killed off in season four.

 

I think that's what Dave was implying in Recon with his comments about TCW.

Happy 100 pages everyone!

 

No I haven't. I understand what they were going for and it would of worked if they at least exchanged a few swings before the final staredown.

I personally never liked the fact Maul, ahsoka or anyone else that was a major character in the clone wars appeared in rebels. They dumbed the show down too much and I knew there would be problems for fans like me.

I hope they at least keep Vader in high regard so all the young kids watching can understand what a real villain looks like. I hope ahsoka never returns either unless they killed her off and I missed it.

 

Calling it 'dumbed down' seems a pretty big stretch to me. Just that one Kenobi-Maul conversation/throw-down touched on some pretty heavy philosophy about revenge and letting go of the past. The fight was never ever the point - Maul had already lost before a single swing on either part.

 

Yeah maybe, we could still have that prolonged duel before the conversation though.

 

Probably a controversial stance but I actually think the one-strike fight was probably the best (or at least most suitable) way to demonstrate the ideas they'd been expressing verbally. Maul is a big ball of conflict and rage, Kenobi is centred and calm; by that logic (and based on the vast majority of their previous fights) the extended version would have been Obi-Wan stonewalling Maul's attacks and then getting in the winning blow... which is of course exactly what we got anyway, albeit hyper-condensed. For me, a flashy long duel would have been fanservice and done for the sake of having a cool fight scene, whereas what we got served the story and the themes perfectly... although I totally get why some people would be disappointed in it.

 

Isn't it just likely that while he has a lot of fans, Maul's fighting abilities have been a tad bit... overrated? He lost to a blind Kanan. Obi-Wan beat him and Savage 1 v. 2. He has never been Vader, the Emperor, Yoda or Obi-Wan at their best. Maul was a savage warrior, but he never was on the same level as the OT Jedi and Dark Siders. Who are a different level of combination of Force and lightsaber skill. And yes, I am not just talking about the visual representation some 40 years ago. I am talking about their abilities in story.

Also bringing up Ahsoka vs. Vader isn't really a good example of Filoni's bias because Ahsoka gets exactly one blow in and that is while Vader is distracted and was paying no attention to Maul. Luke did better in Empire while losing a hand.

 

Obi-Wan never beat him in 1 v 2, it was 2 v 2 remember ? Obi-Wan failed to save Adi Gallia and then he escaped. He escaped and lure them in a confined space, because it was for his advantage. And then again, he didn't beat Maul, he beat Savage and failed to capture them.

Against Kanan, he underestimated him because Kanan was blind and his left foot stuck on that stone statue and then he fell. Kanan never really beat him, he just pushed him to the cliff and Maul was unlucky because of the environment. Before that he was skilled enough to deal with 3 Inquisitors at the same time without any trouble.

Maul was skilled enough to take on Qui-Gon Jinn and Kenobi at the same time, Qui-Gon was a well-known Jedi Master and Kenobi was already ready to become a Jedi Knight in Episode I. And he still beat Qui-Gon, and then disarmed Kenobi as well. He only lost because he thought that Kenobi was unarmed and he never expected a lightsaber attack from Kenobi in that position.

Then in the Clone Wars, he beat Savage Opress in Season 5, and before that he beat Kenobi in the Season 4 finale of the Clone Wars.

 

Requiescat in pace.

 

They were, certainly, before he came back, but I don't think it reduces the nonsensical aspect of him dying because he tried a move on Obi-Wan that he had already used on Qui-Gon, which is a fine thematic element, but doesn't really work as it was made, because Maul in TPM used that move in a much smarter way than he did in SWR, in which he basically grabbed the Idiot Ball.

 

The idiot ball? What's that mean?

 

I like how peaceful Maul look when Obi-Wan closes his eyes, a far cry from the moment when he (really) came back and his eyes went completely wide before settling as he came back from madness.

 

Actually Maul's strength , speed and agility were overall still in top notch for someone stranded on a deadworld for some time in Twilight of the Apprentice(how he lifts stone blocks weighing many tons each, fights off and overpowers younger and able Dark Jedi Inquisitors(two of which were agile and very fast and one slower but very powerful and heavy bodied but agile) and how how he blocked, attacked & destroyed the probe droids to how he slayed the 7th Sister using a very deadly and advanced form of Force choke/ bodily levitation and lightsaber throw . There was no signs of rustiness. Later he swiftly blinded Kanan and played around with then forced the retreat of the agile and Anakin trained Ahsoka. The odd thing about the Kanan's duel, was that Maul wanted to give him a fighting chance, and they had Maul throw the odd punch was where they had him screw up - but Kanan used the petrified kneeling statue and closeness to ledge of the pyramid trap and Maul stumbled over, but quickly recovered as he survived the fall obviously AND that could not of been an easy feat alone . Maul later dominates and quickly subdued The Ghost crew using a combination of his fast reflexes, sword and Force abilities. Kanan was no match for Maul even in the possessed state, Maul was just toying with him and did not appear willing to strike him down, whether due to Ezra's pleas or cause of the Nightsister pact or both. After Malachor, he does not seem all that interested in killing Kanan or Ezra. He walks into Attalon and retrains use of his lightsaber .

That was not same move Maul used on Jinn, maybe somewhat similar but not the same. It is either some of the worst choreography in SW, or they're obviously lying or both. Its unclear why they had Maul start off with one blade ignited and then all of a sudden activating it in duel phase before the duel even began. First thought it seemed like Maul wanted Kenobi to remember Naboo. And Maul is just as deadly with a single blade(TPM/TCW) as he was with two(TPM and Rebels). In TPM Maul used his blade to parry Jinn, he used barbell-like press two handed grip to push Jinn's arms and sword back and swiftly used the hilt that was in striking range to stun Qui Gon and followed it up by delivering the killing blow. In this toon, Maul directly uses the hilt and holds it horizontally and brings himself upright after being stooped to low to the ground, as if to block Kenobi's incoming strike blow with the hilt alone - which would of course never work since hilts are not lightsaber resistant. If you watch the scene, they let Maul kill himself. Maul could've cut Kenobi's legs or waist with either side of his saber, pivoted to block Kenobi's blade with his own blade - but instead they'd have us believe he chooses to use the hilt to go for Kenobi's face.






What Maul did to Jinn was super quick, and not at all what they made him do on Rebels.







After Twilight of the Apprentice, it does not appear like Maul belonged in Rebels, they barely used him and had nothing for him to do for long stretches of time(from the 6 months following the events of Malachor to Holocrons of Fate, after that Mandalorian hideout he then disappears again in-universe they left blanks along with after leaving Dathomir), they just used up his few brief appearances to make a send off to what basically amounts to tie up TCW supposedly - while also semi-stretching out Ezra's development. Talk about rush job and underwhelming. They never tell us even how he got on Malachor and how he acquired his new ex-Inquisitor lightsaber. They have him jump from Malachor to having him directly go this Savage Opress-like quest to locate Kenobi, using the holocrons and Nightsister magick, and the eventual holocron shard in place of the Talisman of finding acting his version of compass to find his connected person of interest.

But in one sense, its fitting that only Kenobi was his true equal and the man that could bring Maul out've the madness for his own kind of redemption. Maul allowing Kenobi to end the rage and madness, to give Kenobi back the "kill" Maul denied him on Naboo. Shows honor, a twisted version via the evil Dark Side, but honor. Maul just cannot die unless he wants to like says in Darth Maul #2, "after all my vengeance is vetted". . He "died" a thousand times Malachor, each time it made him stronger and more powerful. As that planet was strong in the Dark Side and part of his Sith training. He did die more like Jedi and selfless release of no more attachments. His final words would be fittingly prophetic.

His strong presence was both felt and seen by Leia post Endor, on Naboo . So his power and presence is still present and felt years later. The holocron mergence , Nightsister beliefs and communing with the dead, his relics(including Talzin's crystal ball). He'll be back at some point.

 

When I watched the episode I was sure, that it was Maul's honor suicide by Kenobi's hands. And as Kenobi knew it, he conforted by in his las minutes. But after Rebels Recon, when thet told us that it was the same move which killed Qui-Gon Jinn, I was shocked in the negatice way. That was definetely not the same move. The opponents stood in the different distanses. Jinn had no space to blocked that move in the way that Kenobi did.

I hope they are saving all this stores for a book. Twelve years is long enough to tell the story

 

Obi-Wan rejected Luke's offer to help him in order to protect Luke. That's different from someone asking a Jedi for assistance and the Jedi saying "nah, I'm good."

The Jedi are supposed to be compassionate. That means they are supposed to help those that are suffering. Ezra shows up at a time when the Rebels are struggling, Ahsoka was killed by Vader as far as he knew. His own master has limited Jedi training which has them marked for death, Ezra reaches out for help from a true Jedi Master, and Obi-Wan just sends him on his way.

To me that's an unnecessary development in the story that adds a layer on Obi-Wan that was best not there.

In Rogue One, Bail Organa sends Leia for Obi-Wan when the situation looked desperate, and Obi-Wan ultimately obliges. As he should. Remove Rebels from the equation and we get Obi-Wan going into exile with Luke to protect him. Then when a call for help comes, he answers the call and requests that Luke come with him, because people need their help.

"I need your help, Luke. She needs your help. I'm getting too old for this sort of thing."

Put Rebels back into the picture and someone is pleading with Obi-Wan for help, and Obi-Wan essentially tells him, "no, you're fine, you've got everything you need."

That's not something I think benefits the Obi-Wan character.

Obi-Wan tells Vader he can't win, because even if he strikes Obi-Wan down, he'll only make Obi-Wan stronger.

He doesn't dispute the idea that his power is weaker. That was common between Obi-Wan and Yoda.

"I'm getting too old for this sort of thing." - Obi-Wan

"Your powers are weak old man." - Vader

"Sick have I become. Old and weak." - Yoda

"Palpatine wants Luke to kill Vader to take his place. Let's face it, he's half machine. He's nowhere near what Anakin should have​ been, so with Luke he has the chance for a another young, stronger apprentice." - Lucas, ROTJ commentary

There's repeatedly a link between age and power. Yoda and Obi-Wan are old and can no longer fight the Sith, so they pin their hope on Luke.

So establishing Obi-Wan as all of a sudden being this guy that Maul can't touch comes out of nowhere.

Dave rationalizes it that Maul can't let go of the past and so cannot achieve enlightenment, while Obi-Wan has moved on.

Pablo has confirmed in Rebels Recon what the OT established that Obi-Wan feels Vader cannot be redeemed. Which is why Obi-Wan now feels Luke is the Chosen One. Luke is meant to destroy the Sith in Obi-Wan's eyes, and to that end he chose to lie to Luke.

"There's a point where the hero needs to be left alone with nobody else to help him. He must defeat the evil monster alone. Here we establish that the evil monster is really his father, he has to do it alone, and he's ill equipped to do it. He was too impatient, he didn't finish his studies, and now he's faced with a difficult physical and emotional challenge." - Lucas, ROTJ commentary

"Unfortunate that I know the truth?"

"No. Unfortunate that you rushed off to face him. That not complete was your training. Not ready for the burden were you." -Luke & Yoda, ROTJ

These characters don't strike me as enlightened.

They want Luke to kill Vader after Obi-Wan failed, and too this end, they keep Luke in the dark about his father so that he is not emotionally burdened by the task.

But while Obi-Wan wants a son to kill his father, Obi-Wan is shown to have no desire to kill Maul.

"I had no intention of fighting him (Maul)." - Obi-Wan

Obi-Wan showing this kind of compassion and unwillingness to fight seems out of place considering what he desires from Luke. And what he desires from Luke seems very unenlightened.

The emotional "burden" is precisely what makes Luke compassionate towards his father, and it's what saves him, and it's Vader that destroys the Emperor.

Obi-Wan and Yoda just wanted Luke to kill him.

So having Yoda talk to Ezra and warn about fighting and fear leading the Jedi to the Dark Side during TCW seems out of place when he later wants Luke to fight and kill Vader.

Having Obi-Wan avoid a confrontation with Maul and having no intention of killing him seems like an act of compassion towards Maul, but to me that's inconsistent with the lack of compassion he shows Vader or that he'd train Vader's own son to kill him.

The idea that Maul's hung up in the past while Obi-Wan has moved past it and became enlightened seems entirely mismatched with the OT IMO.

Obi-Wan IS hung up on the past. Perhaps he no longer feels a responsibility to seek Maul out and finish Maul off, but that's only because he's hung up on Vader instead.





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I think these has confirmed that Filoni is a pure Maul hater, just saying...

We all need to thank Dave Filoni for all of these... He gave us a much longer fight with Pre Vizsla when it comes to Maul, but when Maul needs to go, he made it a ''very quick'' fight, which made Maul a source of amusement amongst the fans.



Dave Filoni : ''To do it right, to make it exciting - that's a whole act, because the fans of Pre Vizsla, are gonna mob me at Celebration in the future if Vizsla goes down too easily.''




Dave Filoni : ''If you talk to a lot of people that sword fight they’ll tell you people that are very good don’t have long fights. It’s very quick. And so that scene is an homage to The Seven Samurai.”

 

I think Filoni knows he'll be mobbed at Celebration this year by Maul fans.

 

in Maul vs Pre Visla, Maul held himself back from using force powers.He could have just force choked Visla, but that wouldn't have been honorable. Pre Visla also used more than the dark saber, such as his jetpack, to prolong the fight.
In Maul vs Ben, Ben didn't give Maul the chance to use the force. Maul charged head in like a savage animal, and was cut down quickly for his arrogance. If you look at how the other dark siders fought, they all used the force to probe their enemies before relying on lightsabers. Maul is too proud in his combat skills, and likely not capable of advanced dark side techniques like force lightning. All of these factors make the short duel in Twin Suns perfect for Maul's end.

 

honestly, it makes sense why maul lost so easily. he's obviously gotten weaker since TCW, and I would think that is due to Mother Talzin dying in the SOD comic. He was beating up on the 3 inquisitors during the season 2 finale, but that doesn't really say much. I mean, if you rewatch the later season 2 episodes, those guys are stalemating or even losing to a jedi padawan and a kid with no formal jedi training. in addition to maul being past his prime, we see that he has gone insane trying to find kenobi. he wants to kill kenobi badly, to gain something positive from a life that has screwed with him since day one. Kenobi, on the other hand, has for the last 15 years been relaxing and meditating. so when they finally meet, maul gets desperate and tries the move he used on qui-gon. Kenobi, who was willing to kill maul when he threatened luke, recognized the move and ended the fight.

also, the vader/ashoka duel makes sense. first, lets understand that ashoka wasn't just your average padawan. yoda assigned her to anakin because of her large potential, and at the end of TCW ashoka held her own against grievous, an elite fighter who was truly only beaten maybe 3 times in the entirety of the series(Kit fisto season 1, gungan sneak attack season 4, ventress season 4, maybe kenobi season 5). and despite not training after leaving the jedi order she was still very skilled, killing the sixth brother without a lightsaber(she made his kyber crystals explode). second, I believe that it was said somewhere that vader's weakness as a fighter was that he 1) didn't fight as well against people with 2 lightsabers and 2) had a hard time fighting people faster than him. both of qualities would perfectly describe ashoka, so she somewhat has the advantage in saber combat. lastly, that battle did not for the most part show ashoka being equal to vader. You could break down that fight into 3 portions, the opening inside the temple, the part outside the temple, and the end scene. the first part is kind of even, with ashoka jumping around and attacking, but vader is forcing her to retreat outside. the second part vader easily wins, you can see ashoka getting overwhelmed and vader pushes her off the temple. in the final part the only reason ashoka lands a hit was because vader didn't see her and she was too quick. so while ashoka's fate is currently ambiguous, it is obvious that vader won that specific duel.

 

I could be forgetting something, but from what I can remember, at no point Kanan and Ezra were even close to beating the Inquisitors. Their closest moment to victory was to jump blindly from a cliff just to escape them. Since a just blinded Kanan managed to surprise and defeat Maul himself, I would say that he isn´t that bad either... and, in that light, Maul having the advantage over the Inquisitors does says quite a bit about his abilities.

 

True.

 

I have to disagree. It may be fanservice but of the kind that makes sense. In my eyes there's nothing wrong with a Vader/Maul match. Sure it had no place in Twilight of the Apprentice but given some time.

Course I could be biased because of my fond childhood memories of this

You just gave me an idea. Now as I said many times my issues with Twin Suns is that it really didn't quite gel with everything else that was going on at the time and maybe part of that had to do with the long stretches in-between his appearances. Maybe it could have been better (in my eyes) had they put all three Maul episodes back to back as a trilogy.

 

Why would Vader vs Maul be fan service? Vader is the new apprentice to sidious so it would be fitting for him to end Darth Mauls life. I was ok with yet another Obi wan encounter but I was almost certain it wouldn't happen. But to be clear if it did happen it needed to big. I'm not even a Maul fan let's make that clear. But him losing that quick makes no sense unless he wanted to die from the get go.

Every encounter maul has had with Obi wan it has been even or slightly favoring Maul. The only time I can say Obi wan stood out was when he went toe to toe against Maul and Savage. But I believe the brothers were overconfident. I dont think they expected that performance out of Obi wan. Nobody did to be honest.

 

Filoni makes no sense, the whole "its fanservice" is a giant cop-out. The entire series of Rebels is fanservice, this show seriously can only exist in canon with giant leaps of continuity stretches. Honestly, Maul vs Obi is much bigger fanservice if you ask me. Just to make that duel happen they had to come up with such nonsensical explanations for their meeting. A Maul vs Vader duel is easy to understand, new apprentice vs old apprentice. I'm sure if Sidious felt Maul's presence in the galaxy he would make sure to send Vader to snuff it out. It honestly made much more logical sense in canon but Filoni doesn't want to say the real reason he didnt have Maul vs Vader was because he couldn't resist giving Ashokha the starring duel with Vader to show how "badass" she is. He didnt want to take the limelight off of her.

 

I thought bringing Obi-Wan to the show was pure fanservice that had nothing to do with the Rebels story or Ezra’s story. When they brought Vader, they managed to make him fit within the ongoing story and having an impact on the crew. Maul, the same, with him blinding Kanan. Obi-Wan? Completely peripheral and unneeded.
So Filoni comments about Maul vs Vader being fanservice just strike me as lacking some self-awareness at best, hypocritical at worst.

I always thought that the most fitting ending for Maul in the cartoons would be one that actively involved Rebels crew. A team effort with the help of Mandalores for instance, who are not only part of Sabine’s story but also Maul’s main story in the cartoons, and Ezra should have been actively involved in that fight with Maul since he was the main connective tissue of Maul to the Rebels story. Vader could have been brought in to finish it (or not) if the scenario was presented in a way that made sense to have Vader in the story.

Instead, what we got was Ezra being used as a flimsy excuse to set up a Maul vs Kenobi in a show that does not belong to them, and what’s more, the only Rebels character left before the fight even started.

And didn’t Maul already have his revenge against Obi-Wan? What’s the point of having a whole story arc with Mandalorians, with Sidious, with Son of Dathomir, with wanting Ezra as an apprentice, with his new-found purpose against the Empire, etc., if you’re just gonna hit the reset button back to Crazy Maul of TCW Season 4? It felt like this whole investment in the new Maul went nowhere. It’s just…argh, really botched character storyline for the sake of Kenobi fanservice.