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    TCW vs. Rebels debates are not allowed in the Television forum. As in, discussions that descend into TCW/Rebels bashing/gushing will be subject to Mod action. Contrasting the themes, story lines, characters, etc. between the shows is allowed (welcomed, even). "Versus" debates/arguments, however, are a deal-breaker.

Rebels Darth Maul in Star Wars Rebels

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by StarWarsFan91, May 22, 2013.

  1. ChefCurryWindu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2015
    star 2
    When did Maul say that he wasn't strong enough to confront Vader by himself? Was it in "Twilight of the Apprentice"?
  2. Roosterq Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2017
    star 1
    As well as killing him off so soon. I think when Lucas found out he could get Christopher Lee he abruptly wrote in Mauls death to bring on one of the greatest villain actors ever. I never liked how they resurected Maul after he was killed, but I always thought he should have been the main face of evil for the PT, just like Darth Vader was for the OT.
  3. Vialco Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    Actually I wrote an essay on a lazy Sunday afternoon some time ago that unravels the whole of Son of Dathomir plot. It's too long to post here with way too many screen caps, but if you had a specific question I can try to explain it here. This is the Maul thread.
  4. Sannom Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2011
    star 3
    Last edited by Sannom, Mar 20, 2017
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  5. The Shadow Emperor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2012
    star 4
    Could you PM it to me? I'd love to read it.
  6. ThisHurricane Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2015
    star 3
    I don't watch Rebels but from the clips I have seen Maul seems out of character and nothing like he is in TPM.
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  7. Sannom Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2011
    star 3
    He doesn't have a personality in TPM aside from "silent badass". That's why I'm grateful for the animated series to have made him so unhinged and talkative.
  8. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 5
    Rhetorical question: who is the target audience for this show?

    Awhile back, Pablo addressed a question about the cancellation of TCW saying it was too expensive. The budget was around $2,000,000 per hour of animation apparently, and he said that TCW merchandise wasn't selling, remarking that the show lost the kids it was ostensibly intended for.

    Rebels is apparently a correction of that. Cheaper, put on DisneyXD, and apparently able to hold an age group of 10-15 year olds as its core audience.

    Then you have Filoni talking about Kurosawa and Samurai films and how he could have gone for the flashy fight, but opted not to. Pretty much turning away from everything I would think a 10-15 year old kid would find appealing under the belief that a Japanese samurai film outcome is going to appeal to kids that are accustomed to lengthier fights.

    He had to know that would be divisive.

    I'm well outside of the core audience, so I do try to temper my expectations a bit. But I can't fathom their logic about Kurosawa and modeling the fight on a samurai fight. Lucas knew better than to even do that.

    I think I was about 12 when TPM came out, and I loved it? The big highlights? The Podrace and that awesome lightsaber fight with Maul! 12 year old me ate that up as superior to the lightsaber fights of the OT.

    Older audiences (myself included as I've aged), can appreciate those slower fights and the inspirations and thought that went behind them, but fact is there was no emotion fueling the lightsaber battle in TPM and kids still loved it. And many of those kids, now adults still praise that fight as one of the best of the series.

    So when Filoni, for the purposes of a kids show, decides that a 3 second fight that "plays out in their heads" is the way to go. I can't help but feel he may be out of touch with his target audience.

    Had those doors opened up with Maul spending more time staring Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon down than the actual length of the fight, I can assure you 12 year old me wouldn't​ have been so into the Maul character and that fight would not be remembered as fondly to this day.

    All the more reason why they probably shouldn't have had taken the story to Tatooine in the first place.

    Dave I think even remarked how 18-20 year old men were thanking him for TCW and it dawned on him that these men would have been 13-15 when the show had started. People of the PT era are now adults. TCW apparently lost the kids from its audience and instead grew up with its initial audience.

    Now TFA may be the first installment of a new trilogy for a new generation, yet Rogue One and Rebels keep trying to play to the strengths of previous generations and nostalgia rather than cultivate the current one.

    Ahsoka, despite the criticism, grew along side famous characters and is now a beloved part of the franchise. Meanwhile the Phoenix crew I feel is buried beneath Legacy characters like Mon Mothma, Vader, Thrawn, Obi-Wan, Maul and Yoda.

    Rather than cultivating the Rebels crew, they take the story to Tatooine for a fight between Maul and Guiness-Kenobi. And then resolve it like an old Samurai movie.

    Who exactly was that meant for if not adults?



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  9. Darth_Narcissist Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2012
    Many people are pissed at maul being killed so quickly

    while I love maul I understand why his death was how it was....

    kenobi at this stage in life was a true jedi master with years of combat experience under his belt from the clone wars...

    Maul never progressed any further than what he knew from the phantom menace.....rage hate desire for vengence and time had passed maul by.......
    he was a skilled warrior who could dispatch of poorly trained inquisitors but in this final show down kenobi was far beyond maul in skill..... maul still thought of himself as the same warrior he always was his over confidence again was his undoing. he jumped and twirled to strike like a young man but time had diminished that ability perhaps he figured kenobi was even more diminished with the passage of time.....

    would i like to see a long battle yes of course... but the facts of reality showed why things went down as they did.....

    I enjoyed it and loved the homage to old samurai movies from back in the day...

    l also liked that kenobi had compassion for his old enemy and made his final moments as peaceful as he could have made it......

    maul held on to vengence until the end. satisfied that the choosen one would destroy his old master and at peace with his final destiny....

    I am very much okay with this episode..... mauls story has its closure....

    great episode i gave it an 8 out of 10
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  10. Sannom Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2011
    star 3
    Stupid question : in that samuraï movie that seems to be the main inspiration for that fight, aren't the two opponents about equal in skill? If you translate that to Star Wars, doesn't it mean that Maul and Obi-Wan were actually matched skill-wise, but that Obi-Wan won because of his clarity of focus and the fact that he actually had a purpose, unlike Maul?
  11. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 5
    This fight plays out unlike any other.

    Usually the opponents draw swords and then just engage in swordplay like a well choreographed dance.

    Here, it's more like a mental chess game that plays out before either person makes a movie. We see Obi-Wan adopt his ROTS pose, then Maul changes stances, then Obi-Wan switches to his ANH stance, and then transitions to the same stance that Qui-Gon had before the TPM duel. In response we see Maul eagerly plant his feet into the ground.

    A correlation there is that Obi-Wan adopted the same stance as Qui-Gon and Maul went for the same move that killed Qui-Gon, but then Obi-Wan countered and killed him.

    Here's the thing. Based on what Dave says in Rebels Recon, I don't think it was ever his intention to suggest that Maul was weak.

    Though I've seen A LOT of the feedback that this episode is getting assume that Maul must be weak, because the fight was so short.

    However, Dave's logic is that the fight is actually playing out in their heads as they anticipate each other's moves. Obi-Wan is able to deceive Maul by changing his stance and creating a false sense of an opening.

    It doesn't mean that Kenobi was some seasoned Jedi Master or that Maul had deteriorated and stood no chance. They could just as easily have been very close in ability, Obi-Wan just managed to deceive Maul and Maul did not foresee that he was being tricked.

    [IMG]

    [IMG]

    [IMG]

    If you watch videos from Kendo championships, usually it consists of the opponents sizing each other up a lot, making slight movements to see how their opponent responds and looking for an opening.

    It takes awhile for a person to commit to a strike, and when they do, for better or worse it's usually over in seconds. Though presumably there are rules that also affect things, like I've noticed that if they get within a certain distance of each other the fighting stops (I don't know the ins and outs of the formal sport). But even between two people of similar skill, like the top two people in a championship, usually it ends pretty quickly. That swiftness in which it ends in no way means that the loser was without great skill or that he never stood a chance.

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  12. Jedi Knight Fett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2014
    star 7
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  13. ThisHurricane Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2015
    star 3
    Thats what I liked about him. When he showed up for the final fight in TPM and was silent it made him seem more menacing. Id never think the Maul from TPM would go on rants like in Rebels, or get killed so easily.

    If they would have held the fight for a Obi Wan anthology movie the fight wouldn't have been like that. I don't think I take TCW and Rebels being canon personally.
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  14. ardavenport Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2004
    star 4
    MOD Edit: For a number of reason this post is gone.
    Last edited by Bazinga'd, Mar 21, 2017
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  15. The Legions of Lettow Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2015
    star 4
    Just saw this episode twice on YouTube. Brilliant. I loved the fight scene as it showed how powerful Kenobi had become and because it wasn't an attempt to outdo other fight scenes. I also loved th parallels and contrasts, the twin suns and twin moons being the most obvious. Kenobi and Maul parallel each other. But also, the first time we meet Maul in the flesh is his duel with Qui-Gon Jinn on Tatooine. And then there is the contrast of the Chosen One leaving Tatooine with Jinn and Kenobi and Kenobi looking over son of the Chosen One on Tatooine.
  16. Ithorians Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2016
    star 1
    MOD Edit

    Mmm... I don´t know, it´s only fair to express your opinion and all, but some people in this forum have expressed being hurt with the way their favorite character found his demise, and this being the Maul thread, they are likely to be here. Perhaps the celebration could be toned down a little bit?
    Last edited by Bazinga'd, Mar 21, 2017
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  17. Erkan12 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2013
    star 4

    I agree with that, but Filoni also said that ;

    Dave Filoni : “I felt strongly Obi-Wan, if he could help it, would really rather not kill Darth Maul.
    Obi-Wan is at a point, in my mind, where he’s become rather enlightened. He’s been in the desert discovering who he is, really evolving as a character.
    He’s not that young brash kid that went into a fight with Maul out of anger for the fact his master was killed. It can’t be that same situation this is so many years later.
    Maul, for his part, is pretty much hung up on that exact moment. That’s where his life went wrong. He can’t let it go.

    Filoni hopes the duel, and the moments after, are the perfect representation of one of the most important conflicts in all of Star Wars.
    “It really is to express the difference between the Jedi and the Sith. Which is the Jedi become selfless and the Sith remain selfish.
    When pressed, because Obi-Wan is protecting someone else in the end, he does fight. But because he is so true and knows who he is in that moment, you can’t defeat that. So Obi-Wan is going to strike down Maul because Maul is such a broken and lost person
    , which I think is why in the end you see Maul being cradled by Obi-Wan.''

    - http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-producer-of-star-wars-rebels-on-tonights-incredible-1793376931
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  18. The Legions of Lettow Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2015
    star 4
    W
    Which is why this is one of the best episodes. Apparently, when Filoni talked to Lucas about making Rebels, he asked the Flanneled One two things. One was what should happen to Ahsoka Tano. The other was about the nature of the Force. And this episode shows Kenobi's mastery of the Force vs. Maul's having become consumed by the dark side. It shows how much Kenobi has evolved. I believe that Kenobi has evolved to a nondual state like the Bendu. He doesn't see Maul as his enemy. This Jedi does resolve the gray when he learns that Maul may try to harm Luke, either seducing or killing him, and thus chooses to fight. Then after the fatal blow he shows compassion to Maul, something the young Kenobi of the PT and TCW perhaps wouldn't have done.
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  19. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 5
    And there Dave goes again with theories that don't add up. Maul can't let go.

    Neither can Vader. He's been stewing in his desire for revenge against Obi-Wan for nearly two decades, yet he can't be beaten by Obi-Wan, and perhaps not even Yoda. The latter is unclear though begs the question as to why he didn't, if he could.

    ESB Infinities didn't seem to think he could as Vader killed Yoda in that what if story.

    Enlightenment didn't amount to much. Vader's inability to let go fueled his rage and strength. Filoni holds some double standard to argue that Maul is stuck in the past as a negative. That shouldn't have any bearing on his ability.

    Also, Obi-Wan in no way set Luke up to be compassionate when he gives him a weapon and tells him his father was murdered. He manipulated Luke into following the Jedi path to honor his "murdered' father, but we see that this causes Luke to seek revenge. Something Maul wanted, something Obi-Wan as shown here seems put off by.

    I really do think they need to watch the movies again to get an idea of where these characters are in their development.

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  20. Erkan12 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2013
    star 4

    I agree, that should fuel Maul more just like it fueled Vader, but the difference here is huge, the difference that Maul lost everything, his power, his brother, his mother, his place as a Sith Lord. As he says in the Rebels ''Once I had power, now I've nothing.'' .... So the difference between Vader and Maul is Vader has power and rank in the new Empire and he has a place as a Sith Lord, while Maul has nothing other than his past. As Filoni says, he is a broken and lost person. And Witwer also confirms that

    Witwer: He has this ambition that still exists inside him and that ambition is eating him up –especially now that he’s past his prime and his glory years. Yeah, he’s a sadder character than we perhaps remember in Clone Wars.
    http://ew.com/article/2016/03/24/darth-maul-returns-star-wars-rebels/

    So in the Clone Wars, he had his apprentice and he had his mother, and once again he gained power, so in the Clone Wars he was just like Vader but after losing his powers once again, he was completely lost.

    Kenobi on the other hand had a purpose like training with Qui-Gon and protecting the Luke on Tatooine. So that was the difference between Maul and Vader, Maul and Kenobi in the Rebels.

    Also when you look into the Vader vs. Ben Kenobi duel, it's completely different. Vader isn't attacking him blindly like Maul did on Tatooine, he is very careful and he is protecting himself at the same time. Maul was trying to kill him directly, he wasn't even trying to fight or defend himself. His last move was the exact move that killed Qui-Gon, he uses that move without gaining upper hand in the duel, which is not logical, Maul was mentally hindered and completely lost cause at the moment.
    Last edited by Erkan12, Mar 21, 2017
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  21. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 5
    Maul wasn't attacking him blindly. Dave says they are anticipating each others moves and the fight is playing out in their minds before it even begins.

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  22. Erkan12 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2013
    star 4

    What I meant is they were going to end the duel in one-strike, since Maul attacked Kenobi first, Maul decided to finish it in one move, Maul or Kenobi, Maul lost because he is a broken and lost person at the moment so Kenobi won. Vader would never risk that kind of one move only fight because he had a power in the Empire, he had a purpose as a Sith Lord and he had allies such as stormtroopers against Kenobi. Maul on the other hand, he had nothing.
    Last edited by Erkan12, Mar 21, 2017
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  23. Mother_Talzin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2014
    star 4
    Kenobi and Maul are both living in exile, and rather equal when it comes to skill level in my opinion. Likewise, when you look at Kenobi in ANH, is he truly a great warrior, superior to Maul or Vader? I recall him slicing an arm off a bar patron and then briefly facing Vader before basically escaping to the netherworld as a diversion. I'm no Kenobi hater, he is a great character, and a fine warrior in ROTS, but lets be realistic...he defeated Maul because he was at peace, and Maul was not. Maul didnt learn from the past, and clinged to hatred and revenge - that's what got him killed.
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  24. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 5
    I don't know why him being broken or lost would play into him losing. He's no more broken than he was in the Season 2 finale when he killed three Inquisitors and could match Ahsoka, who in turn fared respectably against Vader.

    His singular purpose at this point is revenge, just as it has always been. The same thing that fueled him to victory over Qui-Gon.

    I don't think the way Dave sees Obi-Wan here fits with Obi-Wan in ANH.

    Vader describes Obi-Wan as weak. Lucas had described the OT as having a cyborg, old man and Jedi in training. He didn't describe Obi-Wan as being some enlightened warrior. He and Yoda were Knights from a bygone era passing on their knowledge to a new generation represented by Luke.

    And if you watch ROTS then the OT, it doesn't seem like they changed at all.

    Obi-Wan wants to fight the Emperor. Yoda says he's too weak and that he must face Anakin instead. Obi-Wan says he can't bring himself to kill Anakin and Yoda counters by saying Anakin is gone.

    Very much the same thing Obi-Wan tells Luke. His father is gone and he must be willing to kill Vader or the Emperor has won.

    There's no real change.

    Obi-Wan had no qualms about slashing off Ponda Boba's arm when things got rowdy. And according to the databank, Dr. Evazan was killed in that scuffle. This wasn't some guy that cherished all life and defused things with a mind trick. He tried to defuse the situation with a drink, when that didn't work, he drew his weapon and took a life/crippled someone and walked away. Zero compassion.

    Yoda and Obi-Wan both are in agreement that Anakin is gone forever, they hid the truth of Vader from Luke and instead led him to believe that Vader was his father's murderer. We see in ESB and the comics that this does fuel animosity of Luke towards Vader, not compassion. Something that Obi-Wan would have had to have known, yet was content to do, because then it makes killing Vader easier.

    The OT is about Luke coming of age and finding his own way in life, and it mirrors Lucas' anecdotes about his own life, about the life his father wanted him to have and how youth need to be willing to rebel against authority to discover themselves.

    Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader. He did what he felt was right and in the end rejected that path they laid before him. Just as he rejected his uncle's path, his father's path, etc.

    Dave paints Yoda and Obi-Wan as these wise beings that wanted Luke to do what he did all along.

    To me that's a HUGE corruption of the OT narrative.

    And now in Rebels we see these characters becoming "enlightened" with Yoda seeing that fighting is not the key to triumph, and Obi-Wan saying he has no intention of harming Maul and ultimately showing him compassion when he does.

    To me, Dave is drawing interpretations of who these characters are that were never there. And now his ideas are canon, though to me they do not fit at all with what the OT showed.

    Luke was the enlightened one. Remove the shows from the equation and watch the movies alone, and to me Obi-Wan has changed in that now he's in agreement with Yoda about Anakin, but that's about it. Their goal is still the same. Kill Vader. And in grooming Luke to do so, they send him on a path where they keep him in the dark about his father, to discourage compassion, because they don't want his feelings getting in the way of the mission.

    "His compassion for you will be his undoing." - Palpatine

    "Bury your feelings, Luke. Or they could be made to serve the Emperor." - Obi-Wan

    Obi-Wan is not (or rather should not have been) some enlightened Zen master that Maul can't touch. Obi-Wan is, when I watch the movies, stuck in his old ways, same as Yoda.

    And Luke, if nothing else, is the one to show the old way was wrong.

    I feel like Dave's views are nostalgia infused. That since we're so close to ANH, Obi-Wan needs to be that wise, enlightened wizard he regarded him to be as a child watching the films, but watch the saga as a whole and I don't see him like that at all. He and Yoda haven't changed much. Yoda even shows hesitancy regarding Luke's age, something Pablo cites as being the result of the Jedi of the prequel era being out of touch.

    These are defeated characters from a past era training Luke to be just like them when he doesn't want to be just like them, because he sees their way as wrong. Not enlightened.

    Obi-Wan should not have his life together any more so than Maul. He is equally grounded in the past, imo. Or at least that is what I get from the saga.


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  25. Darth Basin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2015
    star 5
    Slightly off topic but I've been watching reaction videos on the "tube" & I've noticed something. Most males were upset, some in tears. Most females seemed happy. All shocked.

    I'll keep watching as they come in. I should be greatful he's gone. He killed innocents. He killed Jinn & Satine. Yet i felt compassion when he died especially when he reached up & tried to touch Obi-Wan.

    I wonder if the Force will forgive him.
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