Full Series Darth Maul in Star Wars Rebels

Actually, in the scene from Seven Samurai, the movie that primarily inspired the Kenobi/Maul duel, Kyūzō (one of the seven samurai) is way more skilled than his opponent and knows this, and therefore doesn't want to fight the other samurai with actual steel swords, because he knows he will win and kill his opponent, which he doesn't want to do. He only decides to fight after he is pressured by the other samurai to do so.

If you haven't seen it, I strongly recommend you watch the movie (and everything else from Kurosawa for that matter). Its one of the greatest movies ever made in my opinion.

 

True, Maul being killed by a Bounty Hunter would have been better. I'm not very big on Rebels either, it feels very restricted in terms of budget, variety, tone and violence. I don't have much interest in the core 6 characters either they are cheesy and invincible. Yeah I understand what people mean over TCW characters carrying the series, even those can be dummed down though like Maul and Hondo.

 

So there is no room in your universe for both? Are existing long-termStar Wars fans destined to be dumped like 40-year-old women whose husbands meet some hot college bimbo? Star Trek already did that to it's fans and look where it is.

 

The death of Maul was in some ways like the death of Ol Yeller. Sad but necessary mercy killing.

 

That's because he's half the man he used to be...

 

Not even that much, really.

 

I never said that there wasn't room for both. I said that it's odd to me that they are doing the same with a show on DisneyXD targeting 10-15 year olds as they are with Rogue One, which ostensibly is aimed for the older audience.

Ergo we aren't getting both. They seem to be catering more toward nostalgia, even in a kids show where the target audience wouldn't even be old enough to feel the nostalgia.

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Maul is essentially what Vader was in the old EU; broken, emotional and half the man (no pun intended) was. His character was meant to be pathetic, you were meant to feel pity for him in the Rebels at the end.

 

The kids have the Sequel Trilogy and that which derives from it going forward.

 

Which is a twist, considering I feel the Jedi were meant to be pitied in the OT. once proud Guardians of peace and justice that were cast out and now live in the desert and in a swamp.

Now I'm supposed to think that Obi-Wan has grown and risen above what he once was?

He's largely the same person, perhaps even colder. He could not bring himself to deliver the coup de grace, and instead left Anakin for dead, and in doing so he doomed the rest of the Jedi and now has robbed Luke of the life he may have had otherwise.

Yoda and Obi-Wan failed and so they determined Luke's destiny for him. He's inheriting their failures. Pushing him to become a Jedi, keeping him in the dark about his father, and telling him he must be prepared to kill Vader, because when Obi-Wan couldn't bring himself to do it, it doomed the Galaxy.

Luke is paying the price not just of his father's sins, but of Yoda and Obi-Wan's failures.

This celebration of how "complete" Obi-Wan is and how he triumphs because he has "purpose" is just weird.

He surely has regrets for his failure, and he's protecting Luke to ensure that the son inherits the responsibility of a Jedi. And too keep said son in the dark so that emotions don't interfere with what must be done

That to me is pathetic.

Obi-Wan's entire purpose for being on Tatooine is to make right his own failure 19 years earlier via Vader's son.

Maul's purpose is revenge for having his destiny robbed from him by Obi-Wan.

They aren't so different. One is trying to help the Galaxy, the other is trying to help himself.

But that was always the case. Not much has changed.

Both are haunted by past failure. One failed to protect the Republic, the other failed to achieve the power he felt was rightfully his.


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I find it ironic that Filoni had no qualms having Maul easily sliced into two pieces like a basic stormstropper but when it came to Ashokha he went out of his way to make her look badass/nearly unbeatable. I mean she came into Rebels and basically stalemated Vader, slashes him across the face and then instead of dying at his hands she apparently disappears into the darkness to "Return to fight" another day.

If anything Vader at his prime in Rebels should have been able to dispatch Ashoka easier than Obi did Maul I mean she was basically a padawan wheres Maul was a trained Sith Lord. I guess the whole noble samurai deul is only implemented when its not against Ashkoha cause it would make her look bad.

 

I feel Maul and Kenobi are both broken, I agree with mostly everything TaradosGon has said. I believe the only reason Maul lost was because Kenobi tricked him, however. In universe I get it, but out of universe it feels weird. Not like Star Wars at all. I understand that people keep backing it up as a reference to another movie, but I am 21 and I have never seen or heard of the movie until now. I am sure most kids have not either. And the fight was nothing like any other Star Wars fight. That is why I was disappointed.

 

Most viewers will not have a clue about the reference, its just something Filoni and team did for themselves. Had Maul engaged Vader, it would have at least been as good as the Ahsoka duel. Since it was Kenobi, it had to end on a poetic note, which I liked to a degree, but it didn't feel like a Star Wars series, especially one aimed at kids where the reference would fly over their collective heads.

 

What an interesting conversation is happening here! Every argument is sound and I can believe even all are right, stealing Obi-Wan´s line, from a certain point of view.

First, I do believe Maul was fueled by his hatred, anger and resentment, much like Vader. And much like what TaradosGon says, at this point this dark state could possibly make Vader stronger than Yoda himself. However, I also see reason in Erkan12´s argument, that unlike Vader, Maul indeed lost everything, including himself, and the only thing that really motivates him is the perpective of causing to others the pain he´s suffered.

Vader at least had a lot to show as to say "the darkside gave me immense power". Not only in the Force or his ability to physically defeat mostly anyone he faced, but power within the Empire, political, social and millitary power as well. Maul was alone, nobody cared about him and there must have been a strong sense of unfairness, because he was far more powerful than the average person, and yet had less power to change his life and to fulfill his desires than most.

It´s also true that Obi-Wan lost all hope on Vader being redeemed and the change of paradigm that allowed Anakin to come back was pure Luke... but perhaps Yoda and Obi Wan did learn from pass experiences indeed, showing this, for instance, by allowing Luke to be raised by his family (Leia had a family life as well, so they bet it all to it) and not beginning his training until he was mostly an adult, and could make choices like the ones he ended up doing by himself.

Obi-Wan and Yoda, I think, weren´t weared down by years of hating the Empire and the Sith, but only realized that Luke was the one chance they´ve got to change things and make them right. That´s why Obi-Wan is described as having this almost zen like state of mind: he doesn´t want or need revenge against Maul, his goal is to help Luke return the balance to the galaxy, and by doing that, helping billions of beings.

Maul, on the other hand, was in such state that he travelled, literally, through the desert just to find Obi-Wan and having some kind of closure to the constant suffering that was his life all along. He is broken by a life of hate and suffering, he is just tired because, unlike the Sith, he never saw the reward he felt he deserved. So at this point, when the Malachor temple collapses and can´t be used against the Sith, I think Maul is basically gone. I do think he deteriorates during the course of season 3, because he had hope on Malachor: hope that one day he would get the chance to use the temple by gaining an apprentice, and achieving his revenge...

 

Ultimately, it's fitting Kenobi killed him. It would have been less mwaningful if Sidious, Dooku, or Vader had done so. And we wouldn't have seen any growth in charactrter if any of them had done so. Nor would we discuss our surprise how quickly the fight ended.

 

It has been argued in this thread already that Vader killing him following a final confrontation with Sidious would have carried just as much if not more emotional weight for Maul. I guess everyone is entitled to their own take on it.

 

Of course, you're entitle to your opinion.

 

I respect your opinion...but I believe there are some flaws in your thinking here....

1- Obi wan/ Yoda never "pushed" Luke to become a Jedi. This is more than clear in the OT. They waited until the moment was right. Even when Obi Wan asked Luke to join him to go to Alderaan and Luke refused, he did not even insisted. They showed him a path. It was Luke's choice to become a Jedi. They were very clearly positive mentors, to the point of allowing Luke to chose his own path eventually.

2- In regards to Obi Wan and Maul "They aren't so different" , really? You said it yourself, one if selfless, the other one is selfish. Day and night. The episode shows that contrast even by analogies (twins suns, with moons).

And Obi wan did not personally fail...Vader fell by himself, it was a personal choice....so did he triumph because Luke won? No, Luke had his own merit. So did Vader. He had free will, and chose wrong.

Reality is Obi Wan is the only undefeated Jedi of the old republic, and mentor of Luke. Hard to get closer to that.

Maul is just an example of where hatred can lead you if you become old enough. For Maul lovers, not a good picture of him.



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1. I'll concede that point that they didn't​ push them to become Jedi. But they burdened Luke with that responsibility. Rather than helping the Rebellion, Obi-Wan watched over Luke, and repeatedly states that he's the only hope.

"That boy was our only hope."

"Then the Empire has already won, you were our last hope."

He went all in on the belief that Luke would save the day, and so himself does nothing to fight the Empire for 19 years. Instead he watches over Anakin's son and passes the buck to Luke on the HOPE that Luke will be trained as a Jedi. That Luke needs to step up, or the Galaxy falls to darkness.

Hera even seems to think it's foolish to believe Obi-Wan would choose to not help, if alive. It's unthinkable to her that he'd sit the conflict out. But that's exactly what he and Yoda do.

And in regards to Obi-Wan "failing" I'm talking about his failure to kill Anakin, not him shouldering responsibility for him falling to the Dark Side (though Obi-Wan clearly does feel guilty about that too). Vader's survival allowed for him to continue on and hunt down the rest of the Jedi unopposed by anybody that could stop him.

Perhaps Yoda could have, but he didn't try. Yoda was sitting on Dagobah, and it's difficult to tell if he ever would have been a part of Luke's training had things gone to plan. Had Obi-Wan and Luke made it to Alderaan, had Obi-Wan not fallen on the Death Star, had the Death Star not been operational yet, etc. it's possible that Obi-Wan would shoulder the responsibility of training Luke. Yoda seemed like the guy it fell to only after Obi-Wan died, and he was more wary of training Luke than Obi-Wan was.

Yoda didn't seem like he really cared to get involved with the Rebellion. He was even all for Luke being willing to sacrifice "the other Skywalker" if it meant completing his training to defeat Vader. They left all the responsibility to Vader's kid, while keeping Luke in the dark that he'd be killing his father.

Obi-Wan did not want to kill Anakin. He says this to Yoda in ROTS. So when Anakin is defeated, he doesn't finish him off. Instead he walks away, leaving him to burn. And his failure to stay and see Anakin's fate to the end helped doom the Galaxy. So what's Obi-Wan do? He lies to Luke about his father so as not to burden him with compassion that may be used against him.

I think it's telling that Yoda and Obi-Wan seem to downplay the role of the larger Rebellion, thinking it is all going to boil down to a confrontation with Vader, while someone like Hera would baulk at the idea that a Jedi Master would be out there and not helping (apparently she wasn't told of Yoda). In the end comraderie is what triumphed over the Empire.

Palpatine saw his faith in his friends as a weakness, whereas Yoda thought that Luke needed to be willing to sacrifice his friends to complete his training.

Both seemed to discredit the role these friends would have in bringing down the Empire.

2. I'm referring to their being pitiful, and being haunted by the past. Not in their Force alignment. Both have been reduced to living pathetic existences by Palpatine. Maul is haunted by Obi-Wan robbing him of his destiny and lives to exact revenge, while Obi-Wan blames himself for Anakin and lives to remedy that mistake through Luke.

Arguments have been raised that Obi-Wan had purpose while Maul couldn't let go of the past and that somehow this translates to Maul not standing a chance.

In response I need go no further than looking at Vader who is also hung up on the past and his vengeance on Obi-Wan. That fuels his anger and gives him strength. His inability to let go fuels the Dark Side, it does not weaken him.



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Tapatalk not sure this is the place to dig deeply into this but I think you're confusing Obi-Wans/Yoda's intentions/motives because you're lumping the OT and prequel together and you're witnessing how minor retcons affected the characters of yoda/obi-wan. To be honest, I think its just evolved to the point that its hard to pin down what exactly is the canon explanation for yoda's continued exile for example. The original draft of the script had Yoda not even as a jedi but as sort of guru who jedi went to visit and a lot of that played into the way he was ultimately portrayed in the OT vs how he ended up being in the prequels which ended up being very different.

 

Hell if he wasn't so blinded by it and also did not bait Kenobi he could have walked away from Tatooine and faced his real Enemies. He died a tragic character and a shadow of himself.

 

I know that there have been changes (e.g. Yoda originally not being a fighter). But retcons have been made throughout the saga and the narrative needs to adapt, lest it be chalked up to bad storytelling.

For instance, Vader was not originally Luke's Dad, but you can still can still watch ANH and think that Owen is afraid that Luke has too much Vader in him, though. It works retroactively. With a show like Rebels that is bridging characters and plots and charting character growth between trilogies, it still all ultimately should work.

In 1977, Obi-Wan would have looked like a strange old man that turned out to be an exiled white Knight that answers the call to action when he receives a request for help from a princess.

Then you watch Rebels and see that's not the first request for help, but that Obi-Wan is just going to stay out of it on account of Luke.

The narrative changes. Views of the characters change in turn.

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This episode didn't really change Obi Wan much in the context of ANH other then the fact that he had no hate in him at all even for his worst enemy. IMO.

 

His personality is still very much in line with what it is in ANH, they even played up his misleading, POV emphasizing nature.

It's his skill and the justification for it that I disagree with. That at the end of the day, he was a pretty consistent character across the saga. He and Yoda were stuck in their old ways.

In this episode, it would suggest that he is becoming enlightened and gaining great focus and discipline because of it.

Which is in keeping with Yoda who in his interaction with Ezra had demonstrated a greater apprehension towards fighting.

Which is in line with Dave's views stated while working on TCW that these characters had changed a lot between the PT and OT and that they wanted Luke to confront Vader in order to redeem him.

Which IMO flies in the face of the narrative of the saga.

I feel like Obi-Wan and Yoda are being depicted as undergoing sage like transformations in Rebels to conform to this idea, when my point is if you watch the films, their goal throughout the OT is the same as it was at the end of ROTS. They've not really changed that much. And that Luke's whole journey culminates in him showing that they were wrong. I.E. not enlightened. They were still stuck in their old ways, and if anything were training Luke to be less compassionate than Obi-Wan was in ROTS since they learned from that experience and opted to keep Luke in the Dark.

My point is that the rationalization that Obi-Wan (and Yoda, though he's not relevant to Maul) are undergoing these realizations in Rebels, I feel is in no way supported by the films that come later.

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I see your point on that.